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| (1338548) | |
Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Feb 7 14:09:54 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by AlM on Sat Feb 7 14:00:54 2015. Eyewitness accounts stated she was stopped when gates came down, she got out of car after gate hit rear of her SUV, she got back in and proceeded forward onto tracks . |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 7 14:10:45 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Jace on Sat Feb 7 13:56:37 2015. No they won't be more puncture resistant and no we are not going to brake at 5 MPHPS. We are going to eliminate crossings, but not until Schumer and his sidekick in Connecticut stop yapping and start getting some money. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Feb 7 14:11:33 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 7 14:08:31 2015. simply put, you can's stop something 3 times heavier than a LRV without it going out of control (slip slide) as rail adhesion is only so much. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Jace on Sat Feb 7 14:11:48 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 7 13:00:37 2015. Then how do explain zero passenger fatalities ever on Japan's Shinkansen network? Luck? |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Jace on Sat Feb 7 14:16:09 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 7 14:10:45 2015. We'll see. I know very well how the FRA reacts to disasters: they'll feel the need to do something especially if the NTSB puts them on the spot. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Feb 7 14:17:05 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Feb 7 14:11:33 2015. Rail friction is proportional to the weight on the rail. So if a rail car weighs 3 times as much per wheel, the wheels can exert 3 times the frictional force. Therefore the achievable deceleration is the same.I think transit system operators have made a conscious decision to limit braking power because the occasional avoided crash is less hazardous than repeated serious injuries from excessively rapid deceleration. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 7 14:20:03 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Jace on Sat Feb 7 14:11:48 2015. Engineering. And Zero Grade Crossings, and Zero Freight and other traffic.ROAR |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 7 14:21:02 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Feb 7 13:32:44 2015. No, tell me.ROAR |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Bill West on Sat Feb 7 14:26:05 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Bill West on Fri Feb 6 17:33:19 2015. In the last 12 months another 270 people were killed at crossings for general reasons which have been repeating for over a hundred years. This week for the first time 5 people were killed onboard for reasons connected to the third rail. This appears to be the industry's first such major incident of its type in 100 years. It does not however appear to involve any new technology or practice such that it could be taken as suggesting a new trend.The public cannot afford infinite resources for these problems. So which area should a responsible safety leader direct the finite money to, a substantial amount on the third rail or a substantial amount on increasing efforts to improve the motorists' conduct and reactions? So sorry, but real world safety is not a case of avoiding every fatality, it is a tradeoff like medical triage. As you will never have the resources to prevent all of the fatalities you have to look at the whole picture and campaign for the action that will prevent the largest portion of them. Bill |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Feb 7 14:30:04 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Jace on Sat Feb 7 14:11:48 2015. smarter people those japanese plus no crossings |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Feb 7 14:31:48 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Jace on Sat Feb 7 14:16:09 2015. You know what they say about building a better mousetrap, it makes mouse smarter, now apply that to humans and what do you get smarter humans ??? nope dumb as box of rocks .. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 7 14:32:28 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by AlM on Sat Feb 7 14:17:05 2015. You are wrong. The area of wheel that touches the track is the same in both cases, less than the size of a dime. Each rail car (a single M7 and an LRV) has exactly the same area (80 cents worth) of contact with the world. If you lock wheels the big heavy train is going to keep going and going, without any control available to the operator.Mass and Inertia. ROAR |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Feb 7 14:33:59 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 7 14:20:03 2015. And for the largest amount of their runs, elevated structures.
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 7 14:36:31 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Feb 7 14:11:33 2015. And if this were October/November with leaf gunk on the tracks, lucky if he could have slowed down as much as he did. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Feb 7 14:38:05 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 7 14:32:28 2015. In the Willy B wreck, NTSB determined that service braking stops the train faster than dumping it. Ah, but attorneys require dumping despite all that. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Jace on Sat Feb 7 14:40:15 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Feb 7 14:11:33 2015. More like 40,000-50,000 pounds heavier; not three times. LRVs brake better because they have hydraulic and track brakes and they have more braked axles. There's no reason these features can't be engineered into new MUs if the desire is to improve braking performance. They may look a lot different than the M7s and they may cost more but cars are always designed to whatever is the most important criteria be it cost, weight, energy consumption, maintainability, compatibility, safety or even braking rate. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 7 14:42:20 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Feb 7 14:38:05 2015. This is true. And installing Track Brakes for emergency stopping will stop a train very quickly, but then you must weigh the inside injuries to what would have happened without track brake. Even in this case such a rapid deceleration would have caused more injuries/deaths than the fire did.ROAR |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 7 14:45:24 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Jace on Sat Feb 7 14:40:15 2015. Not happening. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Jace on Sat Feb 7 14:45:53 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Feb 7 14:31:48 2015. I agree. I often think that dumbing down controls is far better than trying to automate everything. Steam locomotive crews knew they were working with a bomb. Things like car structures are at least far less susceptible to those rocks. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Feb 7 14:46:32 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 7 14:32:28 2015. contact surface of a rail car is not 80 cents worth, as each wheel only touches a pencil stroke line of about half inch wide to rail.8 wheels per car of one pencil stroke wide metal of 1/2 inch is only one dime worth of metal for entire car touching the rail. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Feb 7 14:47:01 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 7 14:42:20 2015. Precisely. A horrible tragedy here, but so many weird factors all came together at once which shouldn't have, even atheists should be able to chalk this one up as an "act of God" here. A repeat performance of this all is highly unlikely. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Feb 7 14:47:30 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 7 14:42:20 2015. it would also wreck the rail, since track brakes do not work with cars that heavy. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Feb 7 14:48:39 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Jace on Sat Feb 7 14:40:15 2015. LRV weight is by multiple cars , and track brakes do NOT work on heavy rail vehicles they wreck the rail. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Jace on Sat Feb 7 14:48:49 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 7 14:42:20 2015. Funny, I don't see any seat belts on LRVs. Lots of unpadded stanchions and hard seat shells too. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Feb 7 14:50:19 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Feb 7 14:47:30 2015. Stronger magnets! Wrap the rail around the wheels until she stops. :) |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 7 14:52:09 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Jace on Sat Feb 7 14:48:49 2015. The don't do 60 - 80 MPH either. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Jace on Sat Feb 7 14:55:45 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Feb 7 14:48:39 2015. Eddy current brakes in use in Europe on HSR equipment are a form of a track brake. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Jace on Sat Feb 7 14:57:53 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 7 14:52:09 2015. Siemens SD160, maximum speed = 65 mph, emergency brake rate 6.15 mphps. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 7 14:59:11 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Jace on Sat Feb 7 14:55:45 2015. Why are you so hell bent on braking distance ? It would have had minimal impact on this wreck and caused more injuries to passengers inside. A 67 ton M-7 is not a roller coaster. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Feb 7 15:00:07 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Feb 7 14:50:19 2015. your starting to give lion answers, you worry me.. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Feb 7 15:01:30 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Jace on Sat Feb 7 14:55:45 2015. European equipment is much lighter and believe it or not the track brake is only used in extreme situations as it damages the rail. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Feb 7 15:02:19 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Jace on Sat Feb 7 14:57:53 2015. again lightweight Euro Choo Choo. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 7 15:02:30 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Jace on Sat Feb 7 14:57:53 2015. Really ?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens_SD-100_and_SD-160 " It accelerates at 1.07 m/sē and decelerates at 1.31 m/sē, with emergency braking deceleration of 2.63 m/sē.[1] " It is nothing more than a glorified trolley car. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by ElectricTraction on Sat Feb 7 15:03:41 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by pragmatist on Fri Feb 6 12:34:27 2015. The difference here is that almost all of the time, no one on board the train is injured. This was very different. I just don't feel bad for the idiots who are squashed by a train, blocking a crossing is punishable by death. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 7 15:04:09 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Feb 7 15:00:07 2015. ROAR |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Jace on Sat Feb 7 15:07:42 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 7 15:02:30 2015. I'll take Siemens' word over Wikipedia |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 7 15:10:32 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Jace on Sat Feb 7 15:07:42 2015. It is still a trolley car |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by ElectricTraction on Sat Feb 7 15:10:45 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Jace on Fri Feb 6 14:45:30 2015. Someone would have to be exceedingly dumb to think that being in a car hit by a train is somehow survivable. Even a "little" 600 ton commuter train.however, I think there is something to the wrong main running. I think she thought that she was in the clear because those trains "always" run on the right hand. Except that she probably didn't know that they have rull reverse signalling and either track can run either direction. We'll never know, and still incredibly stupid to be on the crossing like that, but it's an interesting aspect. The HVAC cuts when the power cuts. Lights only stay on after the power is cut, running off of battery power. I think the Albany pols will finally fund the $50-$100M to finish the project that wasn't finished in 1984 and finally eliminate the remaining half dozen or so grade crossings entirely. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 7 15:14:28 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by ElectricTraction on Sat Feb 7 15:10:45 2015. How would she know which direction the train is running ? |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by j trainloco on Sat Feb 7 15:22:04 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 7 14:52:09 2015. What does that have to do with anything? -5.0 mphps has the same effect on the body at 80mph as it does at 30mph. The only difference is the length of time that force is exerted on the body. And both studies and anecdotal evidence suggest that jerk rate, not deceleration rates, have greater impact on passenger comfort. While it likely would not have changed the outcome of the recent tragedy, MNRR could increase the brake rate of its vehicles by quite a bit before it would have disastrous results on passenger safety. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by ElectricTraction on Sat Feb 7 15:24:42 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Bill West on Fri Feb 6 17:33:19 2015. That's completely wrong. While it's not impossible that LIRR third rail could get snagged, the geometry of it would make it far harder for it to get snagged in the first place, much less go up and into the train. Also, the MN third rail is far higher off the ground in the first place.All of this talk of barriers and sensors and this and that is trying to put a kludgy band-aid on the problem. There are only a handful of crossings between NWP and Southeast, the NYC never intended their weird third rail system to cross a road at grade, that was an invention of MN in 1984, so they should just get rid of the grade crossings. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Jace on Sat Feb 7 15:25:20 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 7 14:59:11 2015. Look back through the string, it's just one thing to consider, I mentioned others but your insistence, with no justification, that nothing can be done to improve braking is what's keeping this going. Even now you're saying it would have "had minimal impact...and caused more injuries...". Pure conjecture. The fact that LRVs, much less buses, can and do safely stop at a much higher rate with potentially much more hazardous interior fittings and arrangements tells me that maybe, just maybe, this is one area which can be improved. As far as I'm concerned, and I am a rail vehicle engineer, this is something at least worth looking into. |
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Re: How 3rd Rail Running Commuter Rail Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Feb 7 15:28:16 2015, in response to Re: How 3rd Rail Running Commuter Rail Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by j trainloco on Sat Feb 7 12:31:30 2015. Pure speculation here,The locomotive would have been bathed in flaming gasoline instead of the first car. Loss of life probably would have been limited to the engineer & the suv driver. We'll never know for sure & hope we'll never have to find out. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by ElectricTraction on Sat Feb 7 15:28:56 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by WillD on Fri Feb 6 16:59:01 2015. If any line is going to get converted, it would be the Hudson, which has no grade crossings AFAIK. Conversion with the transition just north/west of Yankees/153rd would allow freight to get into the Bronx without any third rail interference, but the ultimate driving reason would be so that Amtrak could operate under the wire to Albany and maybe beyond, as well as MN operating electric to POK. Electrify the Danbury to New Milford, get rid of the one through train to Wassaic, and they could get rid of those stupid dual-modes.There's just no reason to convert the Harlem. It doesn't make any sense. Get rid of the grade crossings, beef up the substations to handle longer trains, third rail is fine for a relatively isolated commuter line. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Jace on Sat Feb 7 15:40:33 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 7 14:59:11 2015. Maybe it also helps to describe the design process. Cars are built to a spec that is developed by the railroad. In that spec there usually is an emergency brake rate that the carbuilder must meet. They don't question it, they just meet it. Sometimes the rate has to do with compatibility with other vehicles (passenger cars, locomotives) but other times it's set either by the engineering team or by the railroad. This whole discussion makes me wonder just how arbitrary that rate might be. I need to see justification. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 7 16:49:24 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Jace on Sat Feb 7 15:25:20 2015. How do you know an LRV can do it safely ? How often do they stop at 6mphps rate from 65MPH ?If you want to run LRV's on Metro North and LIRR, go ask the FRA. |
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Re: How 3rd Rail Running Commuter Rail Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 7 16:50:29 2015, in response to Re: How 3rd Rail Running Commuter Rail Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Feb 7 15:28:16 2015. Looking at the schedule, the Wassaic train was next about 15 minutes behind this train. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Feb 7 16:54:34 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 7 16:49:24 2015. No way you can stop at 6 mph/sec without causing major injury to standing passengers. I can easily imagine a death if a frail elderly person were standing between a support pole and a very heavy person. They could get crushed to death. |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 7 16:57:23 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 7 15:14:28 2015. She would not. And she guessed wrong.SH ROAR |
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Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 7 16:58:15 2015, in response to Re: How Railroad Could Have Avoided / Ameliorated Fiery Crash, posted by AlM on Sat Feb 7 16:54:34 2015. Concussions, whiplash, smashed teeth, then even less able to get out. There are also situations where a train can stop faster on service brake than emergency brake. |
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