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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by ChicagoPCCLCars on Sat Aug 3 14:24:18 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Sat Aug 3 09:00:42 2013. Too many involved are off work this week so no word. You should get involved more for ChicagoTransit Yahoo needs you.DH |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by ChicagoPCCLCars on Sat Aug 3 14:26:03 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 3 11:31:00 2013. I believe an invite to bid for a certain number of those cars is out.DH |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Aug 3 14:48:08 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Aug 2 20:21:48 2013. I've seen those drawings before and often wondered why those cars did not have picture windows like the 32s and 38s. Basically, they should have been stainless steel R-36WFs. |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Aug 3 14:56:55 2013, in response to July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by ChicagoPCCLCars on Fri Aug 2 10:56:16 2013. I hate to burst anyone's bubble but of all the CTA railcar designs over the years, the 2200s were my least favorite. They looked a little too boxy for my taste even though I like the design of the R-32s. The straight side with the abrupt sharp curve in below the window level seemed a little too stark. |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by NorthShore on Sat Aug 3 14:58:15 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by randyo on Sat Aug 3 14:48:08 2013. I noticed that too.The date on the drawings is 1962. There must be a more up-to-date version. I think the R-39's would have been built in the late "60's when stainless steel. picture windows, and air-conditioning were standard. |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by NorthShore on Sat Aug 3 15:04:17 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Aug 3 14:14:40 2013. I thought the R-46's were Pullmans's last gasp? |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Sat Aug 3 15:05:51 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by ChicagoPCCLCars on Sat Aug 3 14:24:18 2013. I post on that group too. |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 3 15:10:36 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by NorthShore on Sat Aug 3 14:58:15 2013. St Louis tried to appeal to the TA to make the R38 all LAHTS. It would have been a green version of the World's Fair scheme, in essence an R27 with hopper windows.There was such thng as Main Line R36, so drop sash. Evidently, picture windows were considered the deluxe option and not available for the 2 lowly els. |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 3 15:20:25 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by NorthShore on Sat Aug 3 15:04:17 2013. Superliner I's followed the R46's by about 5 years |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 3 15:20:32 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by NorthShore on Sat Aug 3 15:04:17 2013. Superliner I's followed the R46's by about 5 years |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by ChicagoPCCLCars on Sat Aug 3 15:29:29 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by randyo on Sat Aug 3 14:56:55 2013. The design of the Budd rail cars was supposedly in harmony with the boxy station structures of the two expressway median routes that the 2200s were first assigned to. The 2200s continued the wide picture windows of the "new Look" concept that originated with the Pullman 2000 series cars. Note too that in Chicago, we identify our 'L' cars by their number series, then by the builder. Which can lead to an interesting result. Because the first car in a series is numbered "one" the last car in the series might use the series number of the next series. The last Budd 2600 is #3200. The last Boeing 2400 is #2600.DH |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Aug 3 15:37:41 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 3 15:20:32 2013. Pullman was so disinterested that they "took" a strike delaying production--not generally a way to encourage future purchses. |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 3 15:57:20 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by randyo on Sat Aug 3 14:56:55 2013. They can't beat the 2000's. They were so "Chicago". |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Aug 3 16:26:02 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 3 15:57:20 2013. My vote goes with the 6000s! |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Aug 3 16:33:36 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 3 15:10:36 2013. The only reason that the R-36 M/L cars had drop sash windows was because the R-33 singles were built with R-36 parts in order to get them to the Flushing line in time for the World's Fair. Once the entire Flushing line was fully equipped with WF, 40 R-36s were built with the left over R-33 parts for assignment to the mainline. AFAIK, once the TA opted for picture windows, they became standard on all future NYCTA designs. |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by NorthShore on Sat Aug 3 16:37:32 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 3 08:10:37 2013. I understand Budd did bid and won the R-62 order, but the MTA awarded the contract to Kawasaki.Budd went to court but lost the case. That was the end of Budd in the rail business. |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by NorthShore on Sat Aug 3 16:40:28 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Aug 3 15:37:41 2013. I believe by then, Kellogg Engineering acquired Pullman, and the company became Kellogg-Pullman.Kellogg was an oil refinery equipment manufacturer and installer. There was greater profits in oil rather than trains. |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 3 16:43:57 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by NorthShore on Sat Aug 3 16:37:32 2013. The TA just hated Budd. Can't see any other reason. |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by NorthShore on Sat Aug 3 16:49:41 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by randyo on Sat Aug 3 16:33:36 2013. I saw renderings in 1962 of the Flushing Line World's Fair cars in the newspapers.They were to be standard redbirds with drop-sash windows. After R-36 production started the first cars were mainline cars in red with drop-sash, and the TA decided in the middle of production to "jazz-up" the Worlds Fair cars at the request of fair officials. The result was the picture window bluebirds. |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by Snarf368 on Sat Aug 3 17:53:44 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 3 15:57:20 2013. I don't think 2000 were so "Chicago" and there werent many of them nor for very long, Never saw one if those in any movies. 6000s were very "Chicago" as seen in countless movies. |
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Posted by Snarf368 on Sat Aug 3 17:55:32 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by randyo on Sat Aug 3 14:56:55 2013. Like them or not, they the last series of trains with blinker doors so it's sad to see them go. |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 3 18:43:50 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by Snarf368 on Sat Aug 3 17:55:32 2013. If they did not have blinker doors, what that make a difference.When the 2400's in fact become extinct in a year or so, and I don't even think the IRM will take any, will anyone take notice ? |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by David on Sat Aug 3 20:32:14 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by NorthShore on Sat Aug 3 16:37:32 2013. I think it was the R-62A order. Bombardier won, and, if memory serves, Budd (Transit America by then) protested because Bombardier was able to lower its bid by getting low-interest financing from the Canadian export-import bank.David |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Aug 3 22:49:31 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by randyo on Sat Aug 3 16:26:02 2013. yes which is why a rollsign box from one adorns my dining room and is set to my handle |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by Snarf368 on Sun Aug 4 08:40:27 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 3 18:43:50 2013. Like someone else said, the 2200 are the r32 of chicago so blinker doors or not its a big deal these cars ran 44 years.I believe IRM had a charter fundraiser to raise money to buy a pair of 2400 so you're wrong that no one would notice |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Aug 4 10:33:51 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by Snarf368 on Sun Aug 4 08:40:27 2013. IRM has a LOT of Chicago equipment in their collection (not surprising), so I would think it's safe to assume they'll add a pair of 2400s once they ride off into the sunset.Maybe one day I'll be there when a four-car train of 4000s will be zooming along the mainline - signed as an Evanston Express, no less. I've been there when they had a three-car train of 4000s running. |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Aug 4 10:37:01 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Aug 3 22:49:31 2013. I have one of those signboxes, too. I actually rode on a number of Jackson Park-Howard B trains before today's color scheme was adopted - and an equal number of Englewood-Howard A trains, too. My aunt still lives a block south of the Bryn Mawr station, which was an AB stop back in the day, so we'd take whichever train arrived first. |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Aug 4 16:35:55 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by NorthShore on Sat Aug 3 16:49:41 2013. That's not the way I heard it. It is true that originally, the Flushing Line was to get red cars similar to the R-29/33 from whatever contract number would be assigned, but that was changed when the picture window design was developed and since the TA wanted cars of the new design ASAP, rather than wait for the M/L R-33s to be completed, it requested that R-36 parts be used on 40 R-33s to make up the singles that would be needed to make up 11 car trains anyhow. Actually when it came time for the R-36 M/Ls to be constructed, they were equipped with brackets for the Identra coils then in use on the Flushing Line. |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Aug 4 16:37:17 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by Snarf368 on Sat Aug 3 17:53:44 2013. I agree and mentioned that in my post. |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by renee gil on Sun Aug 4 19:45:07 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by Snarf368 on Sat Aug 3 17:53:44 2013. exactly! the 6000s were featured in the opening credits for the 70s sitcom "good times".i would like to think the 6000 series as CTA signature cars. |
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Posted by renee gil on Sun Aug 4 19:55:05 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 3 15:57:20 2013. more like the 6000's. they were cta's signature cars:       
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by renee gil on Sun Aug 4 20:02:25 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by renee gil on Sun Aug 4 19:55:05 2013. i meant "they ARE", not "they were". sorry. |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 4 20:58:04 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by renee gil on Sun Aug 4 19:45:07 2013. "Bob Newhart Cars" ?Think of it this way: 6000's were like GM Old Look buses 2000's were like GM New Look buses Which do you prefer ? I go for the Fishbowls. |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by merrick1 on Sun Aug 4 21:00:42 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by renee gil on Sun Aug 4 19:45:07 2013. Weren't 6000s also used in the opening credits of the Bob Newhart show? |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 4 21:03:08 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by merrick1 on Sun Aug 4 21:00:42 2013. Yes, I put that up 2 minutes before your post |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by Snarf368 on Sun Aug 4 21:04:18 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by merrick1 on Sun Aug 4 21:00:42 2013. Yes opening of Bob Newhart and Good Times for those old enough to remember |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by merrick1 on Sun Aug 4 21:05:49 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 4 21:03:08 2013. Sorry I'll try to type faster :) |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 4 21:09:39 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by Snarf368 on Sun Aug 4 21:04:18 2013. Heat of the Night (Caroll O'Connor) had the Amtrak City Of New Orleans with Heritage equipment. |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by Snarf368 on Sun Aug 4 21:13:07 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by renee gil on Sun Aug 4 19:45:07 2013. Oops I should have read your post before also posting about 6000s on Good Times. In Bob Newhart Show if I recall in the show they would show clips of 1-50 series cars (similar look to 6000s) when Bob was going home. Show was set in Chicago but filmed in L.A. |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 4 21:13:11 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by renee gil on Sun Aug 4 19:55:05 2013. I do not like that gaudy 1976 scheme on them, nor the dark green and white. Too much like a bus. They looked perfect in the original light green, cream, with orange stripeThey were differences. Destination sign vs. roof top headlight, flat or flush doors, conductor's position and tall window varied. |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 4 21:15:03 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by Snarf368 on Sun Aug 4 21:13:07 2013. I think partly filmed near the Bryn Mawr stop. His allegedy apartment building is on the Lake Front near Thorndale. Rumor has it he owns a condo in it as his Chicago crashpad. |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by chud1 on Mon Aug 5 04:48:08 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by renee gil on Sun Aug 4 19:55:05 2013. All Hail to da 6000's.chud1. :).... |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by renee gil on Mon Aug 5 08:24:25 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by chud1 on Mon Aug 5 04:48:08 2013. yup! |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon Aug 5 09:15:18 2013, in response to July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by ChicagoPCCLCars on Fri Aug 2 10:56:16 2013. Supposedly something will be going on this thursday, 8-8. |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon Aug 5 13:57:16 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by David on Sat Aug 3 20:32:14 2013. This is what I wrote about it in my NYCTA in the 1980s; from the third paragraph:The first Capital program allocated funding for the purchase of 1,150 subway cars. Kawasaki was not interested in building another 825 IRT cars. The Budd Company was still manufacturing transit vehicles, but the MTA didn't want to negotiate the contract with Budd alone. St. Louis Car and the American Car and Foundry Company were out of business. Pullman Standard was itself on the way out due to, in part, the botched R-46 contract. Enter Bombardier, a Canadian company best known for the manufacturing of snowmobiles, Francorail, a consortium of six French companies, and Budd, competing for the largest contract for subway cars in the United States until the R-142 order in 2001. Bombardier ended up winning the contract. Because Bombardier had a conservative approach to their railroad car business -- they wouldn't manufacture a car that wasn't already designed and tested somewhere else - the MTA set a condition for the Kawasaki contract that Bombardier would receive a license to manufacture the Japanese-designed cars themselves. This became the R-62A contract, where each individual subway car cost $803,000. The first R-62A car, car number 1653, was delivered to Coney Island Yard on October 10th, 1984, and the first R-62A test train ran on December 14th, 1984. So why didn't the Budd Company get the R-62A contract? Many people, transit enthusiasts notwithstanding, claim that the Budd-built R-32s are some the finest subway cars ever built, and they are in better shape that those built for contracts R-38 through R-46. Budd was considered an American company at the time (though it really was owned by Thyssen A.G. of Germany). The decision to award Bombardier this contract ended up having national implications during a time when it was legislated to "buy American", and clearly, awarding the contract to Budd would have been buying American. MTA Chairman Richard Ravitch testified before the Senate Finance Committee and said that Budd was not willing to extend the same amount of credit to the MTA that the foreign competitors were, that Budd intended to manufacture the cars' undercarriages in Brazil using an unproven company (the MTA didn't want to have another R-46 or Flxible crack ever again); if the design failed, a switch to the American source of the undercarriages would have added thousands of dollars to the cost of each car, and that Bombardier was willing to use the Kawasaki design -- a proven design that was very reliable. Similarities in design would also allow standardization of parts, which would reduce inventory expenses. Ravitch also questioned Budd's reliability, pointing out that the firm was a year behind in deliveries of subway cars to Baltimore and Miami.73 The committee ended up upholding the decision to use Bombardier. Budd continued fighting the decision for many months afterward, but didn't prevail. My source for this was "A Reporter At Large: Painting the Elephant," The New Yorker, June 25th, 1984, page 66. --Mark |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon Aug 5 13:59:20 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by ChicagoPCCLCars on Fri Aug 2 22:14:23 2013. Do you recall where?--Mark |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon Aug 5 14:03:20 2013, in response to July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by ChicagoPCCLCars on Fri Aug 2 10:56:16 2013. As always, great job and thanks for sharing.--Mark |
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From Where Did The Term "Blinker Doors" Originate? (Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era) |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon Aug 5 14:04:11 2013, in response to July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by ChicagoPCCLCars on Fri Aug 2 10:56:16 2013. As a side question, why were the folding doors on the 2200s called "blinker doors"?--Mark |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by NorthShore on Mon Aug 5 14:28:47 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon Aug 5 13:57:16 2013. Excellent article.So the Budd Company that built the R-36's was not the same company that would have built the R-62A's. It was no longer an American owned company manufacturing in America. |
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Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Aug 5 14:47:45 2013, in response to Re: July Closed A Chicago CTA Era, posted by NorthShore on Mon Aug 5 14:28:47 2013. Budd didn't build the R-36s, St Louis built them. Budd built the R-32s! |
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