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Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by BusRider on Thu Jun 13 13:03:01 2013 Looking at old subway maps, what year would you say has the most confusing subway lines, schedules, deviations, etc? |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jun 13 14:45:09 2013, in response to Old Subway Maps, posted by BusRider on Thu Jun 13 13:03:01 2013. The old BMT maps. Just look at any pre-1940 BMT map for Fulton Street El services in rush hours, for example. |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Jun 13 15:39:10 2013, in response to Old Subway Maps, posted by BusRider on Thu Jun 13 13:03:01 2013. My response, cross-posted from BusChat:You're referring to New York City, I assume. I would vote for 1967 or 1972, or somewhere in between. The 4 line is sometimes routed to Flatbush, other times to Utica. The 5 and 6 often served South Ferry. The F sometimes skipped 169 St, sometimes didn't, sometimes ran express Church to Jay, sometimes didn't, sometimes ran express south of Church, sometimes didn't. The Rockaways receive the A, the E, or the HH, or all, or branches of them, or whatever. I wasn't around but they look like fun times! |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by BusRider on Thu Jun 13 16:17:09 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Jun 13 15:39:10 2013. I was looking at the 1972 one that is interesting. Has the trakage really change sine then besides the Archer/Jamaica segment? |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Jun 13 16:22:50 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by BusRider on Thu Jun 13 16:17:09 2013. Well, the 8 train tracks are gone, and there is the 63rd St line built in the 1980s. The Culver Shuttle is also gone. And I don't think there was a relay track at Broad Channel permitting a Rockaway Park shuttle. |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by BusRider on Thu Jun 13 16:27:14 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Jun 13 16:22:50 2013. Was there a significant difference in trains ia bridge versus ia tunnel? |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Jun 13 16:29:20 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by BusRider on Thu Jun 13 16:17:09 2013. I might add that the arrangement they had along today's J/M/Z line in Brooklyn in 1972 (then, the J/K/M) was the best and they should go back to that if they can. I don't know if it was changed because it was difficult though. I'm specifically referring to the section from Bway Junction (Eastern Pkwy) to Marcy Ave. |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by BusRider on Thu Jun 13 16:32:28 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Jun 13 16:29:20 2013. Yeah the skip-stop portion. |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Jun 13 16:33:31 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by BusRider on Thu Jun 13 16:27:14 2013. Please rephrase your question. I'm not sure what you're getting at. |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Jun 13 16:34:49 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by BusRider on Thu Jun 13 16:32:28 2013. If you read the line descriptions at the top you'll see that the J did it's own skip-stop from its eastern terminus up until the start of the K line, then went express in the rush hour peak direction. If the J/Z did that today, they would be much more successful in pulling people off the E line. |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jun 13 16:37:06 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by BusRider on Thu Jun 13 16:27:14 2013. In the case of the pre-MTA BMT, both Manhattan Bridge and the Montague St tunnel had 3 routes each, in rush hours. And, unlike today, all 3 bridge express routes used the same 2 tracks on the north side of the bridge. Only part time Nassau Loop service existed on the south side tracks. |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jun 13 16:38:03 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Jun 13 16:34:49 2013. I agree! |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by BusRider on Thu Jun 13 16:45:57 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jun 13 16:37:06 2013. Was trains faster through the tunnel rather than the bridge, vise ersa? |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jun 13 17:07:43 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by BusRider on Thu Jun 13 16:45:57 2013. In rush hour, probably about the same. |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by BusRider on Thu Jun 13 20:59:13 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jun 13 17:07:43 2013. Is there any places I could still get copies I haven't seen any on eBay lately? |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jun 13 21:12:54 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by BusRider on Thu Jun 13 20:59:13 2013. "Mapping the BMT, 1924-1939", by James Poulos. if you cannot find the book online, you can contact him at:http://poulos.magcloud.com |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Jun 14 04:17:39 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Jun 13 16:34:49 2013. Actually, when the KK was truncated back to a full time service from Eastern Pky skip stop service was discontinued and the Js made ll stops between Jamaica and E/Pky. |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jun 14 08:28:07 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by randyo on Fri Jun 14 04:17:39 2013. So is the 1972 service guide wrong when it says the J was skip-stop? Also, when did the K become the KK, and was this around the time that a JJ branch served Rockaway Pkwy?Thank you. |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Jun 14 15:24:47 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jun 14 08:28:07 2013. The KK became the K not the other way around. The JJ branch didn't serve Canarsie. There were 3 AM KK put ins from Canarsie but that was it. |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by Wakefield-241st Street on Fri Jun 14 15:54:19 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Jun 13 15:39:10 2013. The 4 line is sometimes routed to Flatbush, other times to Utica.4 line service: Flatbush-Rush Hours and late nights Utica-Evenings and weekends Atlantic-middays The 5 and 6 often served South Ferry. 5 line served SF outer on weekends, 6 line late nights. shuttle used SF inner on weekdays. I am not sure about weekday evenings. |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by BusRider on Fri Jun 14 16:01:16 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by randyo on Fri Jun 14 15:24:47 2013. Isn't the K similar to the now M. |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jun 14 16:03:31 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by Wakefield-241st Street on Fri Jun 14 15:54:19 2013. "5' and "1" shared the outer SF platform on weekdays, from 7PM-1AM. Wish they still did! |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jun 14 16:13:45 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by BusRider on Fri Jun 14 16:01:16 2013. No! the "K" ran from Atlantic Ave only to 57th St/6th Ave. It did not run to Queens via 53rd St, like the current "M". |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jun 14 16:38:25 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by randyo on Fri Jun 14 15:24:47 2013. The 1967 map shows the JJ to Rockaway Parkway.http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/maps/calcagno-1967-system.gif |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jun 14 16:43:45 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jun 14 16:38:25 2013. One of many routes and changes during the: QJ,RJ,JJ,KK,LL,J,K,L era. |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by renee gil on Fri Jun 14 16:45:53 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jun 14 16:38:25 2013. didn't the old Broadway-Broooklyn #14 route terminated at Atlantic Avenue around that time (1966-67)? the #14 route was running R-16's at the time. i have a very vague memory of the front bulkhead rollsign of the R-16's on the #14 route that read "Atlantic Avenue (i was 6/7 at the time). |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jun 14 16:46:12 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jun 14 16:13:45 2013. Its purpose to there of course was to provide service when the B was going to 168th uptown instead of 57/6 which was a terminal at the time. |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by renee gil on Fri Jun 14 16:47:34 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jun 14 16:43:45 2013. the KK became the K when that route had cut back from 168th St to Eastern Pkwy in '73. |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jun 14 16:49:05 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by renee gil on Fri Jun 14 16:47:34 2013. Back then, it was another day, another route! |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by renee gil on Fri Jun 14 16:51:59 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jun 14 16:49:05 2013. what do you mean? |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jun 14 16:54:47 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by renee gil on Fri Jun 14 16:45:53 2013. Most Broadway-Brooklyns were Standards. Some R-16's supplemented the #14 rush hour services there. |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by renee gil on Fri Jun 14 16:56:33 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jun 14 16:54:47 2013. thanks. 'cause i do remember the #14 using R-16s. |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jun 14 16:56:43 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by renee gil on Fri Jun 14 16:51:59 2013. The way they kept changing routes and route signs on the Eastern Division! |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by renee gil on Fri Jun 14 16:58:10 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jun 14 16:56:43 2013. ah, ok |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jun 14 16:59:35 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by renee gil on Fri Jun 14 16:56:33 2013. It did, once in a while. When I went to St John's Univ,I lived a few blocks east of Eastern ParkwayBroadway Junction, so I saw them all! |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by renee gil on Fri Jun 14 17:00:14 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jun 14 16:59:35 2013. miss those days... |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by Wakefield-241st Street on Fri Jun 14 17:43:00 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jun 14 16:03:31 2013. The 5 ran to SF outer until 1 AM weekdays? I thought 5 service from Manhattan ended around 11:30 PM. |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jun 14 17:49:09 2013, in response to Old Subway Maps, posted by BusRider on Thu Jun 13 13:03:01 2013. The Vignelli map may have been an artistic masterpiece, but as a functional map it was just a mess. |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jun 14 17:51:04 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jun 13 14:45:09 2013. The service guide for some of those BMT maps required some level of code breaking skill and would be indecipherable to today's subway rider. |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jun 14 17:51:55 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Jun 13 15:39:10 2013. The 1968 map/service guide was probably better than anything post Chrystie until the 1979 DJ version. It was more realistic. |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Fri Jun 14 18:02:26 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jun 14 08:28:07 2013. So is the 1972 service guide wrong when it says the J was skip-stop? Also, when did the K become the KK, and was this around the time that a JJ branch served Rockaway Pkwy?New Flyer: This is probably more information than you wanted to know but the immediate post-Chrystie Street service patterns were very confusing and the subway maps of the time didn't always provide clear information. Below is an expanded version of an essay I did on the old Sub-Talk Board back in 2004. JAMAICA LINE SKIP-STOP SERVICE Skip - Stop service on the BMT Jamaica Avenue Line began in June of 1959. The basic setup was that Manhattan - bound trains leaving from 168 Street - Jamaica Avenue on weekdays from about 7 AM to 8:30 AM would make limited stops from there to Eastern Parkway. Stations along the route would be identified by "A" or "B" signs . No.14 Broadway - Brooklyn Local trains would stop at the "B" stations while No.15 Jamaica Express trains stop at the "A" stations. Four stations; 168 Street, Sutphin Boulevard, Elderts Lane and Eastern Parkway were served by both routes and displayed both "A" and "B" signs. No.14 Locals would stop at 168 St, 160 St, Sutphin Blvd, Queens Blvd, Metropolitan Av, 102 Street, Elderts Ln, Cypress Hills, Norwood Av, Van Siclen Av, Alabama Av and Eastern Parkway. They would then make all local stops to Canal Street. No.15 Expresses would stop at 168 St, Sutphin Blvd, 121 St, 111 St, Woodhaven Blvd, Forest Pkwy, Elderts Ln, Crescent St, Cleveland St, and Eastern Parkway. They would then run express along Broadway stopping at Myrtle Avenue and Essex Street and making all stops to Broad Street. Skip-stop service was offered Manhattan-bound in the AM rush only. This service pattern continued until November 26, 1967 when the Chrystie Street - Manhattan Bridge Line opened. "QJ" trains would replace the No.15 Express and "JJ" trains would replace the No.14 Locals. The service pattern was otherwise unchanged with "QJ" trains stopping at the "A" stations and "JJ" trains stopping at the "B" stations. There was still no PM skip-stop service. The Chrystie Street - Williamsburg Bridge Line opened on July 1, 1968 and a new service, the "KK" replaced the "JJ" . It would operate between 57 Street - 6 Avenue and 168 Street - Jamaica in both directions during the rush hours. About this time the "A" and "B" signs at the stations were replaced by "QJ" and "KK" signs with all - stop stations carrying both signs. Skip-stop service would now operate Manhattan-bound in the AM rush and Queens-bound in the PM rush. "KK" trains in skip-stop service would make all "KK" or "B" stops between 168 Street and Eastern Parkway and then make all local stops between that point and 57 Street and 6 Avenue. Service changes were announced for September 10, 1972 but where postponed until the weekend of December 31, 1972 - January 1, 1973. The "QJ" would be replaced by a new service called the "J' which would run between 168 Street and Broad Street at all times. The "KK" would be replaced by the "K" which would operate between 57 Street - 6 Avenue and Eastern Parkway during rush hours. Hereafter all service on the Jamaica Avenue Line would be provided by "J" trains. Skip-stop service would continue with alternate "J" trains serving "A" or "B" stops .(See original list) Skip-stop service in the PM rush was discontinued and the time of the AM operation were shortened to about 50 minutes. It is unclear how passengers were supposed to differentiate between the "A" or "B" trains. The roll signs were never changed and the subway maps issued from 1972 (2) through 1978 while they mentioned the service did not list which trains made which stops. The 6 Avenue "K" was discontinued on August 27, 1976 and skip-stop service was extended westward to Myrtle Avenue. Chauncey St and Gates Avenue would become "A" stops while Halsey St and Kosciusko St would become "B" stops. The Diamond Jubilee Edition of the New York City Subway Map was a marked improvement over its predecessors. Issued in June of 1979 it was the first map since 1969 to list the "A" and "B" stations on both the front and reverse. All "J" Line skip-stop service was discontinued on December 1, 1980. Skip-stop service would return to the Jamaica and Broadway-Brooklyn Lines in December 1988 with the opening of the Archer Avenue Line Note to Map Collectors: In addition to the 1979 Map the Fall 1980 map listed the "A" and "B" stations as well, but which one? It seems that two maps were issued with the copyright @1979 New York City Transit Authority, Revised Fall 1980. The first map has a side fold and strip maps for the 6 Avenue Line services under the title. The second map has a vertical fold and strips maps for the Lexington Avenue Line under the title. Only the first map shows the "A" and "B" stations on the "J" Line. The second map was issued right after the skip-stop service was discontinued. Larry, RedbirdR33 June 14, 2013 |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by Michael549 on Fri Jun 14 18:07:41 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by randyo on Fri Jun 14 04:17:39 2013. I believe that in either version of the K or KK trains, they were rush hour trains, not ever "full time" trains.Mike |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jun 14 18:08:02 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jun 14 16:54:47 2013. 
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jun 14 18:12:33 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by Michael549 on Fri Jun 14 18:07:41 2013. KK ran back in my time, rush only because something had to go to 57/6 terminal when the B went uptown. Dunno about the K though. That was later. |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jun 14 18:14:11 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Fri Jun 14 18:02:26 2013. Back when I was little and Elderts Lane was my home station, I recall that you never knew which train you were on until you saw which station you bypassed further up the line. No signage, no announcements. With the AM service it was no big deal, since relatively few riders needed service from an A only stop to a B only stop. |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Fri Jun 14 18:18:54 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jun 14 16:38:25 2013. The 1967 map shows the JJ to Rockaway Parkway.New Flyer: The short-lived "JJ" (11/67-6/68) was merely a re-designation of the No 14 Broadway-Brooklyn Local. There was no change in the service pattern in the several months following the opening of the Chrystie Street Line. Below is a portion of a post I made back in 2004 that details the Broadway-Brooklyn Local service in the years preceding the opening of Chrystie Street up until the end of June 1968. AM Rush: Westbound first three trains lv 111 St and run local to Canal 626-707AM, next "B" skip-stop service begins from 168 St from 708AM to 824AM, then from Atlantic Av 850AM to 946AM. There were also three put-ins from Canarsie 621AM- 651AM AM Rush: Eastbound: service lvs Canal St local to 168 Street 658AM to 728AM, to Eastern Pkwy 738,748, to Canarsie 755AM, to Metropolitan Av (Myrtle) 804AM, to Atlantic Av 50AM to 912AM, to Eastern Pkwy 900AM and 923-1018AM. PM Rush: Westbound: service begins from Eastern Pkwy from 305-343PM and also at 425PM, then from Atlantic Avenue 350-516PM, from Crescent St 521-612PM (four trains), overlaping with westbound service from Canarsie at 527-601PM (three trains), PM Rush: Eastbound: Lv Canal St 330-446PM to Atlantic Av, 444PM to 612PM alternating to Crescent St and Canarsie, 635 and 644PM to Atlantic. The TA maps of the period are woefully misleading regarding this service. They state that the Broadway Bklyn Local runs only during the pm rush between Canal St and Crescent St or Rockway Parkway. The am rush service is listed as a "Jamaica Local" between 168 Street and Canal St with Skip-Stop service to Eastern Pkway. Since the skip-stop service only ran for about one hour and the #14 local service ran actually for three hours in the am. Nowhere on the map does it tell you what stops are actually skipped in skip-stop service. . Larry,RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by renee gil on Fri Jun 14 18:20:32 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jun 14 18:08:02 2013. yup that I remember them!this pic is dated July 18, 1967. |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by renee gil on Fri Jun 14 18:21:55 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by renee gil on Fri Jun 14 18:20:32 2013. i meant: "yup, that's how I remember them!". |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jun 14 18:25:23 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Fri Jun 14 18:18:54 2013. Prior to 1967, they didn't even point out what routes ran where, and the only distinctions showed (besides express and local stops) was which division a line was part of (IND red, BMT green, IRT black).Back in the day, I got the impression people only learned where things ran by actually riding the trains. |
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Re: Old Subway Maps |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Fri Jun 14 18:43:15 2013, in response to Re: Old Subway Maps, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jun 14 18:25:23 2013. Prior to 1967, they didn't even point out what routes ran where, and the only distinctions showed (besides express and local stops) was which division a line was part of (IND red, BMT green, IRT black).With the exception of the 1964 World's Fair Map Edition all those maps had service guides on the reverse. While they were fare from perfect they did provide a general guide to the services that were running. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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