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| Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) (1137108) | |
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Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Feb 4 18:18:14 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Jersey Mike on Sat Feb 4 11:14:25 2012. That's bound to slip with their useless new fare gates: |
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| (1137276) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by RockParkMan on Sat Feb 4 18:37:44 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Olog-hai on Sat Feb 4 16:19:17 2012. Why don't they get off their ass and unionize then? Oh, I forgot, you Nazis made that damn near impossible. Protetcting useless things like PRESCRAP ferries hurts unions. |
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| (1137278) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Feb 4 18:41:22 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Olog-hai on Sat Feb 4 14:47:55 2012. Well WADR, your opinion goes against reality. Nothing is served at all with POP, except for farebeaters that organize either online or via the phone.Ditto. Your hysterics over this article aside, that same strategy can easily be applied to any other fare collection system. Hell, it wouldn't be difficult for online organizers to pinpoint conductors on crowded trains so as to allow fare evaders to avoid them and ride free. And how are you going to implement barrier control on FRA railroads that are at grade, especially where the station platforms start at grade crossings? It's already proof of payment. After all, conductor based fare control systems are just the most overbearing form of proof of payment fare control. That is especially true as NJT implements their commuter rail fare collection with almost all sales through TVMs, and onerous fees for onboard purchases throughout much of the system. It's just more efficient on a lower headway transit system to remove the onboard fare collection officer (or conductor if you prefer) and group them so they can more thoroughly inspect tickets on trains as they pass a given point on the railroad. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (1137279) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by aem7ac on Sat Feb 4 18:41:24 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by WillD on Sat Feb 4 18:13:09 2012. I can throw my paper Metrocard away once I get through the gate and be completely indistinguishable from someone who jumped the gate.The problem is not that there is a fare barrier, the problem is that you are not legally required to keep your paper single ride ticket, and that there is no way for a fare inspector to read your plastic MetroCard. At least with POP there is a requirement to retain the ticket through the trip, which allows fare evaders to be identified after they get away from the gate. It is not necessary to have POP to require passengers to retain their tickets. |
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| (1137281) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by aem7ac on Sat Feb 4 18:45:03 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by WillD on Sat Feb 4 18:16:16 2012. So where on the paper Metrocard does it say anything about retaining the ticket for a given amount of time, let alone throughout the length of the trip?My understanding is that you're required to retain the plastic fare media with you for the duration of the trip. I am not sure where this "rule" is written, and I don't know if it applies to paper single ride tickets. But if not, that can always be fixed. If the fare evasion is not directly observed by the officer then how can it be prosecuted? I am not sure that New York allows turnstile jumping videos to be used as evidence in fare evasion cases. If not, this can be changed. None of these changes to the fare enforcement mechanisms requires POP. |
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| (1137284) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by aem7ac on Sat Feb 4 18:50:42 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by WillD on Sat Feb 4 18:18:14 2012. That's bound to slip with their useless new fare gatesThat is a feature of most entrance-exit faregates--it is no more useless than the industry standard. That's also an issue with turnstile-based systems. In the same way that you could, hypothetically, go into a supermarket and walk out with unpaid merchandize, even though there are checkout operators and barriers designed to make you pay. |
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| (1137299) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Feb 4 20:48:15 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by aem7ac on Sat Feb 4 18:41:24 2012. The problem is not that there is a fare barrier, the problem is that you are not legally required to keep your paper single ride ticketBut by requiring the passengers to retain their ticket through the length of their ride you're automatically creating a system whereby the patron must be prepared to present their proof of payment at some point. Thus even with a barrier fare collection point you're still instituting a proof of payment fare collection system. It's just POP-light or POP-expensive, because of the inevitable maintenance costs for the gates. and that there is no way for a fare inspector to read your plastic MetroCard It's worth noting that so long as there is a human readable serial number on the back of the ticket anyone capable of detaining a potential fare evader can potentially call the ticket number in and receive the history of the ticket for its life. It's a bit more time consuming than a handheld reader, but suffices when this POP function is secondary to a barrier fare control system. It is not necessary to have POP to require passengers to retain their tickets. But again, by virtue of setting up a system whereby the ticket, the proof of payment, must be retained through the length of the trip you're creating a system which is inevitably a proof of payment fare collection system. In order to get people to retain their ticket there must be an incentive, fiscal or legal, to do so. They'd have to be fined for being within the paid area without a ticket, and they'd have to pay for an exit ticket if they are so foolish as to lose their ticket while making their journey. Those are all elements shared with barrier-less fare control systems. |
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| (1137300) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Feb 4 20:54:11 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by aem7ac on Sat Feb 4 18:45:03 2012. My understanding is that you're required to retain the plastic fare media with you for the duration of the trip. I am not sure where this "rule" is written, and I don't know if it applies to paper single ride tickets. But if not, that can always be fixed.But by doing that you *are* implementing a POP system. The ticket must be retained through the length of the trip, and if it is asked for it must be presented. That is POP. It's just that, like BART, PATCO, and WMATA, you'd be using the gate to do the verification of the vast majority of tickets rather than enforcement agents. |
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| (1137302) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by aem7ac on Sat Feb 4 21:26:53 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by WillD on Sat Feb 4 20:48:15 2012. Those are all elements shared with barrier-less fare control systems.I agree. But that doesn't make it barrier-less (i.e. POP) because there are fare control barriers!!! |
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| (1137303) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by aem7ac on Sat Feb 4 21:29:00 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by WillD on Sat Feb 4 20:54:11 2012. But by doing that you *are* implementing a POP system.So the NYCTA and the LUL have POP? Not by any industry standard definition... both of those systems require you to retain the ticket throughout your trip, and have penalty fares for failing to have a valid ticket while within fare control. |
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| (1137311) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Feb 4 22:54:41 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by aem7ac on Sat Feb 4 21:29:00 2012. So the NYCTA and the LUL have POP? Not by any industry standard definition... both of those systems require you to retain the ticket throughout your trip, and have penalty fares for failing to have a valid ticket while within fare control.NYCT does not. The paper SingleRide card can be, and is, disposed of as soon as you pass through the gate. A Metrocard can be similarly disposed of once it grants entry to the station should that transaction leave it without value or rides. London, definitely. There are a number of points where LUL directly interchanges with the National Rail network or are otherwise unable to have a barrier installed. Instead TfL checks fares intermittently with fare enforcement crews. That is the industry standard definition of proof of payment. |
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| (1137312) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Feb 4 23:08:46 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by aem7ac on Sat Feb 4 21:26:53 2012. I agree. But that doesn't make it barrier-less (i.e. POP) because there are fare control barriers!!!Hey, I was told that any system which requires the retention of the ticket from the entry to the exit, regardless whether a barrier is involved, is a proof of payment system. Some just use barriers to eliminate most of the 'honor' element from the proof of payment. |
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| (1137313) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by aem7ac on Sat Feb 4 23:11:43 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by WillD on Sat Feb 4 23:08:46 2012. Hey, I was told that any system which requires the retention of the ticket from the entry to the exit, regardless whether a barrier is involved, is a proof of payment system.Whoever told you was trying to justify "proff of payment" knowing full well that it does not work... by introducing some barriers and then still calling it POP. |
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| (1137314) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by aem7ac on Sat Feb 4 23:13:47 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by WillD on Sat Feb 4 22:54:41 2012. A Metrocard can be similarly disposed of once it grants entry to the station should that transaction leave it without value or rides.Disposing a MetroCard after entering the system while still in the paid area would, theoretically, risk a fine (currently $100) for theft of service. |
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| (1137315) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Feb 4 23:17:51 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by WillD on Sat Feb 4 23:08:46 2012. Without getting into the various back and forths, possession of a ticket for display to an inquisitor IS "proof ... of payment." :) |
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| (1137320) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Feb 4 23:44:02 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by aem7ac on Sat Feb 4 23:11:43 2012. Whoever told you was trying to justify "proff of payment" knowing full well that it does not work... by introducing some barriers and then still calling it POP.The person who told me this is the head of the fare collection department for a transit system which has used a barrier fare control system that requires a patron retain their ticket through the length of the trip throughout its history. |
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| (1137326) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by aem7ac on Sun Feb 5 00:58:30 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by WillD on Sat Feb 4 23:44:02 2012. The person who told me this is the head of the fare collection department for a transit system which has used a barrier fare control system that requires a patron retain their ticket through the length of the trip throughout its history.Apparently quite a non-standard system, since most people in the industry think of "proff of payment" as a barrierless system with random inspections and fare evasion fines. Since the 1970s-80s there had been fines for many barriered systems--long before POP was in the vocabulary. |
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| (1137347) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by merrick1 on Sun Feb 5 06:27:58 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by aem7ac on Sat Feb 4 23:13:47 2012. How so? More than one person can ride on a pay-per-ride card. Two people can enter the system and take different trains. Obviously only one of them would have the MetroCard in his possession. |
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| (1137440) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Sun Feb 5 15:40:41 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Olog-hai on Sat Feb 4 13:25:47 2012. Go back to, say 1978. While I'm not saying that fare beating didn't exist, aside from Hippy Hamburg and Punk Berlin the chance you'd witness one was much lower in West Germany, compared to Paris and London. |
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| (1137447) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 5 15:55:01 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Wado MP73 on Sun Feb 5 15:40:41 2012. What, no farebeating in Frankfurt, Munich, Düsseldorf, Köln, Hannover or other such cities? |
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| (1137449) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 5 15:57:10 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by merrick1 on Sun Feb 5 06:27:58 2012. More than one person can ride on a pay-per-ride cardWho would care about that, if one fare per person per ride was paid? |
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| (1137460) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Sun Feb 5 16:26:36 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by aem7ac on Sat Feb 4 18:45:03 2012. My understanding is that you're required to retain the plastic fare media with you for the duration of the trip. I am not sure where this "rule" is written, and I don't know if it applies to paper single ride tickets.That's not done in NYC. Couldn't do it in the token days for obvious reasons, still not done. |
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| (1137478) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by merrick1 on Sun Feb 5 17:22:09 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 5 15:57:10 2012. I was responding to a poster who said "Disposing a MetroCard after entering the system while still in the paid area would, theoretically, risk a fine (currently $100) for theft of service."There is no requirement that you keep the MetroCard with you once you are through the turnstile. |
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| (1137506) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on Sun Feb 5 19:09:43 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by WillD on Sat Feb 4 01:39:34 2012. Baltimore uses POP on the Light Rail, the Metro (subway) still has fare gates. Buses (of course) have fareboxes. |
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| (1137508) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on Sun Feb 5 19:11:40 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by aem7ac on Sat Feb 4 18:41:24 2012. WRONG!!! POP requires you to retain the ticket until you leave the vehicle. |
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| (1137539) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Sun Feb 5 23:21:35 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 5 15:55:01 2012. I didn't say none but you could add Bonn and Vienna, Austria to that list. |
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| (1137558) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Mon Feb 6 00:58:00 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by RockParkMan on Sat Feb 4 16:14:47 2012. I have never heard of a truly reliable DMUYou never traveled to other countries? |
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| (1137568) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Feb 6 02:03:48 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Wado MP73 on Mon Feb 6 00:58:00 2012. He's never heard of the RDC either, apparently. |
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| (1137596) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Mon Feb 6 09:23:37 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Feb 3 20:00:48 2012. Why would anyone stand for fines anyhow? That just encourages people to drive instead.Precisely. All it takes is for one well-intentioned but confused patron trying transit for the first time to get a fine, and then that's it for him/her and friends!! |
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| (1137603) | |
Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work) |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Feb 6 10:00:12 2012, in response to Re: Germany facing ''epidemic'' of fare evasion (POP doesn't work), posted by Jersey Mike on Sat Feb 4 11:14:25 2012. From the stories I've heard from friends living in SF who use MUNI, that compliance rate is far too high. |
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