|
|
| Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) & 76th Street Saga (1129753) | |
 |
|
| Home > SubChat | |
[ Post a New Response | Return to the Index ]
|
Page 5 of 6 |
||
|
| (1130982) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) & 76th Street Saga |
|
|
Posted by tunnelrat on Mon Jan 9 19:17:28 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) & 76th Street Saga, posted by handbrake on Mon Jan 9 19:05:17 2012. I would venture to say more than a few.in 1994 when they were redoing the brooklyn bridge station.I was told to give a look see.the walls were down on the uptown #6 train side& I found many a sealed up staircase to the street.I found a passageway at the downtown end that led to another passage way that led under the 4 track ROW.the homeless had set up residense there.they had a bed,t.v.& refridgerator& radio.god knows when the last time this was inspected.looks like they were living there for years before the t.a. kicked them out.this tunnel led from the n/b to the s/b tracks. |
|
|
| (1130983) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by N6 Limited on Mon Jan 9 19:24:14 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by Edwards! on Mon Jan 9 17:46:58 2012. Oh wow, I didn't even know that about Union Ave. But it's pretty self evident in Satellite view. I guess, they wouldn't have to deal with complaints of a street being dug up if they created the street themselves? |
|
|
| (1130995) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) & 76th Street Saga |
|
|
Posted by mike cruz on Mon Jan 9 20:00:09 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) & 76th Street Saga, posted by tunnelrat on Mon Jan 9 19:06:37 2012. Hell if I know LOL! |
|
|
(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
|
| (1131005) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) & 76th Street Saga |
|
|
Posted by Avid Reader on Mon Jan 9 20:27:13 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) & 76th Street Saga, posted by Dupont Circle Station on Mon Jan 9 16:16:49 2012. I recall back when the 1967-68 BIG plan for the Subways and LIRR was introduced, A Jewel Ave extension was kicked about.Could this have been in mind? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm? |
|
|
| (1131048) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) & 76th Street Saga |
|
|
Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Mon Jan 9 22:51:36 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) & 76th Street Saga, posted by tunnelrat on Mon Jan 9 18:01:54 2012. I did post it several times here and back on subtalk...it always seemed to get lost in a thread that was overrun with childish trash talking.I said, it was in 108th and ended at Jewel. I don't know the precise location where it stopped...my speculation is that it stopped short of the intersection, but I could be wrong. I never was in FH before The Continental was built, so I have only a general idea of what the area looked like. I do know that I never saw any indication of vents for a subway tunnel but the roadway and sidewalks around there were reconstructed by the time the building opened in 1962, prior to my first visit there in 1964 when we came to NY for the WF. |
|
|
| (1131049) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) & 76th Street Saga |
|
|
Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Mon Jan 9 22:52:44 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) & 76th Street Saga, posted by tunnelrat on Mon Jan 9 18:33:35 2012. Read it again. The guy told me about it in the 80s. He was there in the 60s. |
|
|
| (1131056) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) & 76th Street Saga |
|
|
Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Mon Jan 9 23:37:36 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) & 76th Street Saga, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Jan 9 20:27:13 2012. I doubt it would have been when the mainline was built in the 1930s. It is plausible that at the time a line could have branched off the proposed Astoria extension down 108th to either merge with QB to Jamaica or continue along Continental toward Metro.In the 60s, there were 2 alternate alignments for the Super Express Bypass in addition to Yellowstone Junction. One was to merge with the LIE line at Woodhaven to 108th, then branch off down 108th to Jewel to the GCP (with intermediate stops somewhere between 63rd Drive & 66th Av in that shopping area; and at Jewel & 113th). From there it would have paralleled the GCP through the park and rejoined the mainline at Union Turnpike instead of Forest Hills. The second alternate was to pass under the mainline and run in Jewel with stops at 108th and 113th and the Union Tpk merge. The stakeholders in FH made noise worse than if they were passing stones about that. They were adamant about Yellowstone Junction and making Continental (Cord Meyer had some grandiose plans for the area from 72nd to 66th along QB and that vision was based on their preferred alignment.) 108th & Jewel, though just a couple of short blocks away, was not what they wanted (even with just a stroll through a mezzanine to the existing 71st Av station). Mind you, at that point, they were probably wishing that tunnel hadn't been eliminated...though it would have forced a lower-level at Continental since it hit the mainline roughly in the middle of the station. Back in those days, developers egos and rivalries usually won out over sensible planning practices and path-of-least-resistance-and-cost when it came to existing infrastructure. Yellowstone Junction would have been far more costly to build and turned QB between 72nd and Yellowstone into an epic fustercluck for years...not counting the mayhem the development along Continental and Austin would have added to the mix. The various Kew Gardens Junction options were not that much cheaper, but would have caused considerably less disruption. However, CM figured if QB was going to be borked, it would make the other construction seem less of a hassle since it would have been done 6-12 months before the subway work. |
|
|
| (1131084) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) & 76th Street Saga |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Tue Jan 10 01:20:20 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) & 76th Street Saga, posted by handbrake on Mon Jan 9 19:05:17 2012. As I mentioned in several posts, between the B of T annual report of 1948 and the B of T annual report of 1951, it seems that plans to continue the Pitkin Av subway all the way down to connect with the LIRR ROW in the vicinity of Aqueduct, had been abandoned in favor of connecting the Fulton St el to the LIRR ROW at what we now know as Liberty Jct. This was done a few years before the transition from the B of T to the NYCTA but that still doesn't mitigate the sloppy record keeping of both agencies. |
|
|
| (1131086) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Tue Jan 10 01:28:57 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by N6 Limited on Mon Jan 9 19:24:14 2012. Looking at the Google maps of the area, it would seem that either the subway east of the So 4 St station would have had to curve slightly north to follow Meserole St or else So 4 St would have had to be diagonally through routed to parallel Bway until Stuyvesant Av where it would turn south towards Fulton St. That sounds like an awful lot,of buildings to be demolished just to build a subway! |
|
|
| (1131185) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Jan 10 13:52:52 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by randyo on Fri Jan 6 21:04:59 2012. Absolutely. There was also the issue of money, I'm sure. It seemd that there was more construction started (or resumed) after 1936, but THAT construction stopped during WW2. |
|
|
| (1131186) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Jan 10 13:54:52 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Jan 8 07:58:18 2012. Probably also the reason it was possible to open the station on 12/30/46- bare one year after the war ended- 'cause so much was already done. |
|
|
| (1131187) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Jan 10 13:58:51 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by Edwards! on Sun Jan 8 12:59:30 2012. Me too...I only thought "provisions" were there for expansion... |
|
|
| (1131189) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Jan 10 14:02:41 2012, in response to Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by kawasakir142 on Thu Jan 5 16:46:07 2012. 5 days and counting.
|
|
|
| (1131212) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Tue Jan 10 16:13:03 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by MainR3664 on Tue Jan 10 13:52:52 2012. As I have mentioned in several of my posts, I think that the reason there was such a delay in continuing construction S/O Rocky Av was that the route of the Fulton St subway past that point had not yet been finalized and probably was not until after unification when the present route was decided on. |
|
|
| (1131216) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Tue Jan 10 16:16:06 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by MainR3664 on Tue Jan 10 13:54:52 2012. One of the questions I have is why the interlocking machine at ENY is of the old lever type and yet only 2 years after ENY opened, Euclid had push button NX interlocking. Even without signals installed, was it possible that the interlocking machine was delivered prewar and sat unused in the unopened ENY tower all through the war? |
|
|
| (1131233) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Tue Jan 10 17:30:11 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by Handbrake on Fri Jan 6 20:43:47 2012. It was similar politics in Forest Hills that eventually killed the Super Express Bypass. The city and MTA weren't that keen on the cost of building Yellowstone Jct/reconfiguring Continental when the engineers sat down and looked at what was actually involved. The FH contingent wouldn't accept the 108th Street or Jewel alternative alignments that would have merged in Kew Gardens instead (even though the 108th one would have been well-utilized and provided a good deal of relief on the mainlne even if it only fed the 6th & Bway trunks). |
|
|
| (1131237) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Tue Jan 10 17:32:13 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by Dupont Circle Station on Tue Jan 10 17:30:11 2012. Yet it's probably those same people who complain about the lack of sufficient mass transit in their area. |
|
|
| (1131239) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Tue Jan 10 17:42:44 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by randyo on Tue Jan 10 17:32:13 2012. In this case, it was the developers and business community who were having tantrums about how they would only accept the Yellowstone Junction alignment. Residents didn't really care which way the tracks went as long as they had an easier, less crowded trek to and from Manhattan. |
|
|
| (1131253) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 10 18:43:52 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Jan 8 11:43:36 2012. Service ended at Rockaway Ave, but construction continued eastward up to January 1942, when all major civilian construction projects were suspended so we could gear up for war production. By that time the tunnel under Pitkin to Euclid was pretty much done. They had to wait until 1945 to re-start construction, which first allowed the line to be extended to ENY in 1946 and Euclid in 1948.This is also why the loophole exists for the rumors that a 76th St shell could have been built when the rest of the line under Pitkin was also built. Before construction stopped, the line was still planned to go further than Euclid along Pitkin, by the time it restarted, plans were changed, but the possibility there exists that the tunnel was built to 76th ST by January 1942 when the rest of the line was halted. |
|
|
| (1131268) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by Edwards! on Tue Jan 10 19:25:31 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by randyo on Tue Jan 10 01:28:57 2012. Nope..the plan would have built a new street through the neighborhood,which the subway would be under...of course that would be out of the question today as Lindsey/Bushwick Houses sit in the lines planned row. |
|
|
| (1131309) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Jan 11 00:17:30 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Jan 10 14:02:41 2012. I'd settle for a courtroom sketch at this point. |
|
|
| (1131325) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Wed Jan 11 02:30:35 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by Edwards! on Tue Jan 10 19:25:31 2012. That's what I said. So 4 St would have had to be through routed farther east to continue the subway. It would have depended however on the specific condition of the neighborhood at the time. Some of the neighborhoods that were raised were in such poor condition that demolishing the buildings would have been an improvement, others not. |
|
|
| (1131330) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Wed Jan 11 02:55:33 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 10 18:43:52 2012. According the the B of T annual report from 1948 as well as some contract books I have seen, the Pitkin Av subway was to continue down Pitkin to a point near Aqueduct where it would ascend to the LIRR via a portal from below the ROW. East of the 80/Hudson St interlocking, the contract book indicates that existing bMT signaling was to be used beyond that point meaning that there was no connection planned at that time between the Fulton St el and the LIRR ROW. The 1951 B of T annual report shows no subway down Pitkin past Euclid but does show a connection between the Fulton St el and the LIRR ROW which eventually became Liberty Jct. Apparently either something happened or was discovered S/O Euclid that in those 3 years caused the B of T to change its plans for connecting to the Rockaway Line. It may also have been a simple matter of economics since the slight realignment of the Fulton St el structure and the rehab of the additional short distance between Liberty Av and Aqueduct would definitely be cheaper than an entire 4 track subway from 76 St to the LIRR ROW. In either case, the present ramp to the Fulton St el and the continuation of the subway down Pitkin were definitely supposed to coexist so it was always a case of "both and" rather than "either or." |
|
|
| (1131362) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Jan 11 07:21:29 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by randyo on Wed Jan 11 02:30:35 2012. That's what I said. pwn3d |
|
|
| (1131393) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by mike cruz on Wed Jan 11 09:22:14 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by randyo on Wed Jan 11 02:55:33 2012. It's just when you look at it you can't help but think man this is a weird alignment. |
|
|
| (1131395) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by mike cruz on Wed Jan 11 09:23:45 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Jan 11 00:17:30 2012. LOL! |
|
|
| (1131444) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jan 11 12:27:39 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by randyo on Tue Jan 10 16:13:03 2012. I agree with randyo about which route the IND would take, east of Rockaway Ave. But, all of you seem to forget that the 6th Ave subway began construction in 1936 and lasted until 1940. Perhaps, it was planned to build the IND in sections, but WWII extended the construction time! |
|
|
| (1131510) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Wed Jan 11 14:25:31 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jan 11 12:27:39 2012. The problem with 6 Av was that not only did it have to underpin an el structure which the IND Fulton also had to do, but it had to be built around the Hudson Tubes, under the BMT and over the LIRR tunnels at 34 St. The Fulton St line was pretty much simple cut and cover only having to deal with another subway like structure at ENY itself. |
|
|
| (1131515) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Jan 11 14:33:23 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by randyo on Wed Jan 11 14:25:31 2012. The Fulton St line was pretty much simple cut and cover only having to deal with another subway like structure at ENY itself.Actually, didn't it have to deal with the Fulton El itself? |
|
|
| (1131516) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Wed Jan 11 14:33:52 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by mike cruz on Wed Jan 11 09:22:14 2012. I forgot to mention that the 1951 B of T annual report also indicates that the Whitepot Jct (63 Dr) connection was also to be built in conjunction with the Fulton St connection so that Rockaway passengers would be able to reach Manhattan both via Fulton St and Queens Blvd. Which route they would use would probably have depended on which part part of Manhattan they wanted to got to. Rock Pk trains would probably have used one branch and Far Rock trains would probably have used the other. Under that scheme, it would have been possible for a train to leave Rock Pk, enter Manhattan via Fulton, go out Qns Blvd and return back to Rock Pk via Whitepot Jct and vice versa. |
|
|
| (1131519) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Jan 11 14:38:34 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by randyo on Wed Jan 11 02:55:33 2012. While the connection to the LIRR and the continuation of the use of the Liberty El, as well as the extending of the Pitkin Subway were all planned from the beginning, I believe the connection to the LIRR was originally only supposed to take place from the Pitkin Subway, and not the Liberty El. They only did the connction from the Liberty el when they abandoned plans to extend the Pitkin Subway. While it would have made sense to operate both the extended Pitkin subway and the Liberty El, it wouldn't have made sense to connect both the liberty el and the Pitkin subway to the LIRR.This all said, it's still an amazing waste of money that they duplicated the fulton Line between Nostrand Ave and East New York. That was a perfectly good rebuilt el structure on that stretch, identical to the Broadway and Jamaica els. |
|
|
| (1131520) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Wed Jan 11 14:40:48 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Jan 11 14:33:23 2012. As far as el structures, yes, but the 6 Av Line had to deal with a number of other subway infrastructures along its route as well whereas the Fulton only had one and it was relatively simple to pass over. Within the 34/6 station area itself, the IND had to go under the BMT, over the LIRR and back under the H & M. |
|
|
| (1131524) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Wed Jan 11 14:50:16 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Jan 11 14:38:34 2012. That's exactly the point I've been trying to make. If the Pitkin subway were built to the LIRR ROW, it would have connected to the LIRR and the Fulton el would not have. It was only when plans to continue the Pitkin subway were abandoned that the B of T designed and built Liberty Jct. As for the demolition of the Fulton el east of Nostrand, the problem with retaining it was that east of Hinsdale St, the Fulton el was on original structure and could not have supported heavyweight steel cars so the city would either have had to rebuild that portion of the structure the way the rest of it was rebuilt or else ascend to the structure at Nostrand and then go back into a subway near ENY and back onto the Fulton structure at 80 St the way it does now. That would have meant constructing 3 portals with ramps instead of only one as is the present case. I do believe that if the entire Fulton El had been rebuilt from Nostrand all the way out that the city would have utilized it. |
|
|
| (1131534) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jan 11 15:30:05 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by randyo on Wed Jan 11 14:25:31 2012. it also had to build over water tunnel#2. |
|
|
| (1131541) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jan 11 15:58:01 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jan 11 15:30:05 2012. getting back to dupont circles post on the abandonded subway tunnel on 108st.from 71st ave.jewel ave naturally I just got back from there.I expected to find no trace of a tunnel which is exactly what I found.something else lost to history.next stop was 66th.ave between queens blvd & austin st.to see if anything has changed m/h cover wise,no change.as I have posted here many times in the past no matter where I go,things happen around me.as soon as I got out of my car a lady a few cars ahead of me was trying to get into a parking space that was waaay to small for her car.of course she lost control,hit the car along side of her& in back of her.she got out,looked at the damage got in & drove off.I did get her plate # & placed it on both cars she hit with a description of her & her car.I hope she gets caught.she caused several hundred dollars to the bumpers & sides of the cars she hit.no.I don`t have a cell phone. |
|
|
| (1131544) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Wed Jan 11 16:39:06 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jan 11 15:58:01 2012. The only hint of there being something different under that stretch of 108th was in the early 70s they did a botched job of resurfacing. The roadway was warped and buckling for years until they had money again to fix it...but you could clearly make out where the tunnel walls had been because their lines stood out clearly. I had seen those and wondered why they had built the street like that...it wasn't until that gig I had with Cord Meyer that I found out what the story was. It would seem they didn't retain much, if anything, of the original roof to support the roadway after they ran the new utilities. |
|
|
| (1131585) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jan 11 19:39:27 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by randyo on Wed Jan 11 14:40:48 2012. Did they wait until after the el closed on 12/04/38 to begin construction between 34 St and W4 St? I can't imagine trying to build a 6th Ave subway around the Hudson Tubes PLUS a running el overhead! |
|
|
| (1131595) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by handbrake on Wed Jan 11 20:19:51 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by randyo on Wed Jan 11 14:50:16 2012. I believe a 1939 map of future subway routes in southern Queens illustrates you point exactly. Hence the non-add on construction features south of Euclid Avenue with respect to the how tracks K1 & K2 ascent into Grant Avenue off the Pitkin Avenue main line at a flying junction.Big comparison to the 11th Street cut in LIC that looks more like a grafting of two tunnels at inopportune locations that inhibit the benefit of flexible routing schemes for the Queens Blvd line, as opposed to the flexibility of a flying junction instead. |
|
|
| (1131649) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by mike cruz on Wed Jan 11 23:39:55 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jan 11 15:58:01 2012. Good deal man, I'd hate if that happened to me. |
|
|
| (1131681) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Thu Jan 12 04:03:53 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by handbrake on Wed Jan 11 20:19:51 2012. The line from Pitkin to Liberty was specifically designed that way. The 11 St cut on the other hand, was definitely an afterthought and was built in the only way it possibly could be without severely disrupting the existing services. |
|
|
| (1131682) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Thu Jan 12 04:05:00 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jan 11 19:39:27 2012. AFAIK, the subway construction was started while the el was still up although not necessarily running. |
|
|
| (1131735) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by MELLOW ONE on Thu Jan 12 08:55:45 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jan 11 19:39:27 2012. There are several images that show the excavation for the 8th Ave Subway in the vicinity of West 4th St. Remember, the IND 8th Ave Subway was built first. The H&M is under Christopher St and curves North onto Sixth Ave at 9th St. The 8th Ave Subway comes down Greenwich Ave and curves South onto Sixth Ave at 8th St. |
|
|
| (1131736) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by Avid Reader on Thu Jan 12 08:57:02 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Jan 11 14:38:34 2012. A benefit that can not be forgotten is the EXPRESS portion the subway has, but that was missing from the el. |
|
|
| (1132043) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Fri Jan 13 15:19:00 2012, in response to Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by kawasakir142 on Thu Jan 5 16:46:07 2012. Yoohoo! Have you forgotten about us? |
|
|
| (1132047) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Fri Jan 13 15:27:22 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by Avid Reader on Thu Jan 12 08:57:02 2012. True, but had the IND been able to use a completed Fulton St 3 track el structure it would have been able to provide a peak direction express service much like the Bway Bkln el does now and probably even better. |
|
|
| (1132051) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jan 13 15:38:18 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Jan 11 14:38:34 2012. Perhaps with an el connection at Utica Ave? Or, more likely, a subway to el connection from South4th/Stuyvesant/Utica? |
|
|
| (1132057) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Fri Jan 13 15:44:28 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jan 13 15:38:18 2012. Although that sounds like it would have been a good idea if the IND were able to utilize a rebuilt Fulton St Structure, if you look at the maps, the So 4 St/Stuyvesant/Utica subway was also intended to compete with the Bway Bkln and Myrtle Av els to a certain degree so we can't really be sure if the Fulton St el might not have been retained at the expense of some other lines. |
|
|
| (1132058) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jan 13 15:45:18 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Jan 11 00:17:30 2012. The guy who's developing these pictures must be the same one who did our wedding pix! "Any day now, any day!" |
|
|
| (1132060) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jan 13 15:50:26 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by randyo on Fri Jan 13 15:44:28 2012. While they were making up their minds, they could have run the "A" to Canarsie, the 14 Street line to Lefferts with the Multis, while they were trying to decide on a tunnel or rebuilt el, east of Atlantic! |
|
|
| (1132078) | |
Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon) |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Fri Jan 13 16:32:32 2012, in response to Re: Abandoned Utica Ave Upper Level (Pix Coming Soon), posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jan 13 15:50:26 2012. The problem was that until 1940, the BMT was still operating the Canarsie Line and trying to run the A to Canarsie would have required the city to build some sort of subway infrastructure east of Rocky Av and if a different route had been ultimately decided on which it was, that the city would have had additional expenditures to build an additional route. As it was, the BMT did run a service from the 14 St line to Lefferts with the Multis once it saw the handwriting on the wall that the Fulton St el would be truncated somewhere around the Bway Jct area once the city subway got that far. As it turned out, after the 1940 unification, Fulton was truncated at Rockaway Av to give passengers from Lefferts an opportunity for a pseudo continuous ride to downtown Bkln by transferring to the IND. Once unification had been achieve, the city was able to decide on a final routing for the IND Fulton St subway which also included the connection that was ultimately made S/O Euclid. Had the subway been able to be opened at least as far as ENY before the war, I would imagine that the spur to Rocky Av would have been demolished and all Fulton service routed down Lex which was actually done during rush hours in the form of the Fulton/Lex service. As it turned out, once the IND did make it to ENY, Late nigh and Weekend Fulton service was routes into E/Pky and the Rock Av spur closed during those times. |
|
|
|
Page 5 of 6 |
||
