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| Re: 76st what happened? (1030985) | |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Sat Feb 5 19:39:48 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by dtrain1 on Sat Feb 5 19:00:28 2011. I don't think there was anything on that tract of property which is why the city was able to easily route the subway under it. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by dtrain1 on Sat Feb 5 19:48:58 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Sat Feb 5 19:39:48 2011. I just over that fly over map that has been circulated here and according to the 1924 map there was approx two blocks of buildings that were removed. in fact the streets just north of fulton and east of Eastern pkwy were changed. I sure making a major project like that then was easy to do compared to today. Thanks Randy |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Sat Feb 5 20:08:01 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by randyo on Sat Feb 5 18:34:43 2011. By "George" do you mean the late George E. Horn?I did not know that you had been on those leads before the wall was put up. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sat Feb 5 20:11:35 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Jeff H. on Sat Feb 5 20:08:01 2011. I did & told you so many years ago.7 |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Feb 5 20:41:33 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Feb 5 16:25:37 2011. Come to think of it, didn't they build the support pillars between the express and local tracks to accomodate those wooden ramps at Rocky and Ralph? If so, then Rockaway Ave was meant to be the temporary terminal. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Feb 5 22:57:56 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Feb 5 19:11:49 2011. HA! |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Sat Feb 5 23:38:34 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Feb 5 20:11:35 2011. But I was asking Randy |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 6 00:23:50 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Edwards! on Sat Feb 5 22:57:56 2011. You KNOW it's like that. :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 6 00:37:28 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Feb 5 17:13:08 2011. Excellent post. These guys just don't get it. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 6 01:15:31 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Edwards! on Sat Feb 5 16:46:44 2011. If I wanted a response from someone of your intelligence, I'd have visited the zoo. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sun Feb 6 05:26:38 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 6 01:15:31 2011. LOL |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Sun Feb 6 06:50:13 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Feb 5 13:57:27 2011. Well now.I HUMBLELY admit that i,m editor-n-chief&head investgative report of all of those.I,m really good at multi-tasking.Sorry, but I clearly remember firing you when I purchased the Glenmore Gazzette in 2002. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Sun Feb 6 06:54:38 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Feb 5 13:32:18 2011. IINM the cemetery is on a hill as well. You are not mistaken. In fact the reason the ancient Old South Road was there is because it's on higher ground. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Sun Feb 6 07:02:51 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Feb 5 16:49:44 2011. I have always kept an open mind about that station.Truth be told, I actually preferred to believe that a station DID in fact exist there because that would be a lot more interesting than if it never did. However the pictures and a host of other factors have convinced me otherwise. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sun Feb 6 08:24:04 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 6 01:15:31 2011. You should apologize for that insult to captive animals. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sun Feb 6 08:25:48 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Feb 5 19:11:49 2011. I can certainly live with that. :-D |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sun Feb 6 08:28:02 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by randyo on Sat Feb 5 18:34:43 2011. Why are you sure it's fill, and not just the point they got to in building the tunnel, with trivial amounts of settlement? |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Railman718 on Sun Feb 6 08:42:57 2011, in response to 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Jan 28 13:58:35 2011. Just checking in thread still going I see, ok carry on. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 6 08:58:40 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 6 01:15:31 2011. ah ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sun Feb 6 09:37:37 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Sun Feb 6 06:50:13 2011. YOU DID?,NOBODT TOLD ME! |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sun Feb 6 12:32:12 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Jeff H. on Sat Feb 5 23:38:34 2011. and I answered for him,he gave me power of creative input. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Sun Feb 6 16:03:18 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Jeff H. on Sat Feb 5 20:08:01 2011. No. The George was George Abere. H e and I went through the area several times over the years trying to see what we could see. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Sun Feb 6 16:05:56 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sun Feb 6 08:28:02 2011. Well, what is known is that SA7 and A8 at one time went far enough so that drill moves from Pitkin Yd were able to be made to those tracks so the assumption would be that it was some sort of fill. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Sun Feb 6 16:10:57 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Feb 5 20:41:33 2011. Actually, N/O the station, there were no support pillars between the two express tracks since there had to be a space left for a diamond Xover. To compensate there were additional columns placed between the local and express tracks on both sides to provide sufficient support for the tunnel roof. That being said it does seem obvious that the IND did know that Rocky Av was going to have to be used as a terminal for an extended period of time until the location of the route east of there was finalized. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by RockParkMan on Sun Feb 6 16:39:01 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 6 08:58:40 2011. 
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Feb 6 17:14:41 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 4 09:50:20 2011. Can you believe this? We have been at each other's throats for over a WEEK now, speculating about lies beyond a old walled up tunnel section, east of the Euclid Ave station!!! I, for one, am going to have a nice dinner, watch the Super Bowl, and discuss you guys with my psychiatrist, Dr. Jack Daniels- the 94 proof single barrel one!!! |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Feb 6 17:25:31 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Feb 6 17:14:41 2011. You're right Elkepper. This is the thread that never ends.Enjoy the game.Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 6 17:46:30 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Sun Feb 6 07:02:51 2011. No prob ... I'll stick with those who told me what they saw - it was all long gone before I came along. TWU folks love to pull the hundred meter groin pull, but I could tell these guys weren't screwing around when they were telling me what they saw. So put me down for "rent the damned sled." :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 6 17:47:46 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sun Feb 6 08:25:48 2011. Want to? You *have* to! Or else we shoot you. :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 6 17:50:23 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Railman718 on Sun Feb 6 08:42:57 2011. You're not fooling anyone bro ... you're in here checking to see if there are moves available out there to bid on. :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Sun Feb 6 19:39:54 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Sun Feb 6 16:03:18 2011. But during this time in the 1960s there was no way in fromthe mainline tracks? |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Marc A. Rivlin on Sun Feb 6 20:05:03 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by dtrain1 on Fri Feb 4 20:19:54 2011. The only certificate of occupancy for PS 214 on the Department of Buildings BIS (Buildings Information System) website is from October 1, 1925 and just lists "PS 214" as the purpose. It has no floor by floor description of the building, so there is no way to tell if there is or was a cellar that might have extended out from the building line--some buildings from the 19th and early 20th centuries had coal shoots that extended to the curb--in the way of a six-track subway. I cannot tell if there are any construction permits from the 30s or 40s that might have been modification of the building. There are a slew of "Actions" listed on BIS with dates beginning in 1901. Several are of "Unknown" type, not that the type is helpful without seeing the underlying documents. The only "Action" with a scanned document is the C of O, and it even has an incorrect "File Date" of 1910. Recent work permits, listed separately from "Actions" under "Jobs/Filings," only go back to the early 90s.I also checked the Department of Finance's tax map, which show no REUC, a Real Estate Utility Corporation indicating an easement, on the lot. The lots above A5/A6 and K5/K6 all have REUCs listed. None of the lots along Pitkin beyond Eldert Lane have REUCs. The school has no records in ACRIS, the Department of Finance's online listing of documents (deeds, mortgages, easements, liens, etc) recorded at the City Register, but they only put records from 1966 forward online. The rest are just on microfilm. Older easements are sometimes attached to newer documents--there are a slew of them around the West Fourth Street station--but, because of the per-page cost of recording, form deeds usually state that they are subject to all prior easements, liens, etc without including details. A thorough search would require checking all of the lots along Pitkin at the City Register's microfilm/fiche recording, at the Department of Buildings' hard files of filings, permits, etc, and the old Department of Housing and Buildings files at the Municipal Archives. These are located in office in Brooklyn, Queens, and at the Surrogates Court Building in Manhattan. If we had a controversy about a location in Manhattan, it would at least reduce the leg work. It is hard to reach a conclusion based on my quick research. It does seem likely that either a) there never were any easements beyond Eldert because they were unnecessary (the line would be below the street only) or the Board of Transportation never reached that stage, or b) the easements were terminated because the line was never built or what was built was removed. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sun Feb 6 20:12:25 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Jeff H. on Sun Feb 6 19:39:54 2011. As of 1968,no. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sun Feb 6 20:12:25 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Jeff H. on Sun Feb 6 19:39:54 2011. As of 1968,no. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by handbrake on Sun Feb 6 20:31:19 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Feb 4 17:38:26 2011. At a minimum, an unused completed or uncompleted subway passenger station at 76th Street would have been used by RTO to layup snow birds. Also the close proximity of the newer Grant Avenue station would make a station at 76th Street redundant, and cause NYCT to support another terminal and route. It's bad enough that that end of the system branches out to three terminal, not including Euclid. Adding a fourth one station south (Geographically East) would not be cost efficient. Had the subway been extended east under the original IND plan, a woman with whom I worked with and who lived in South Ozone Park, a station at 76th, if built, might have been part of a grand scheme in that subway's extension.Unification, rather a forced take over, by NYC precluded a more costly subway route with the incorporation of the former BMT Lines Liberty Avenue elevated line. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 6 20:45:59 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by handbrake on Sun Feb 6 20:31:19 2011. Just to make this all more interesting, my understanding from way back was that there were NEVER any rails back there - what rails supposedly existed only went a maximum of maybe 8, maybe 10 cars worth of length from the portal. Three of the tracks could not hold a full train length and supposedly were only used to store individual cars. One track could barely accomodate a train to turn it as best I remember being told. "Snowbird" layups probably would never have been done since it would appear that moving anything in and out of there was a huge PIA.My understanding of the hoohah was that aside from digging and pouring, not much was ever done there. Certainly not a useful station or even tracks to it. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sun Feb 6 20:52:06 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 6 20:45:59 2011. A7 b/b just before the station,thats way more tha an 8/10 car train. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by dtrain1 on Sun Feb 6 21:10:37 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Marc A. Rivlin on Sun Feb 6 20:05:03 2011. Thank you for the info. I appreciate your assistance. I was not sure of the age of the School, so I was kind of figuring it might be like the chicken or the egg syndrome. But 1925 would have been earlier than the subway line if it was constructed. but you do have a good point about if the line was constructed, would there be any modifications to the school building especially with possible reinforcement of the foundation if it was needed. Thanks again for your help |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 6 21:29:23 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Sun Feb 6 20:52:06 2011. I don't think my coworker took a tape measure, but to put it the way he put it to me, there was only room on one track to relay a train, the others were much shorter. Dunno how to convert that to millimeters. :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by dtrain1 on Sun Feb 6 21:29:50 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Marc A. Rivlin on Sun Feb 6 20:05:03 2011. I also forgot to mention that a thorough search though all those records if they are available, would take a long time and still may not turn up anything. the only way to get close would have been to find a property that had reinforcing preformed lets say along the active line on Pitkin ave just to see how the construction was documented and filed. Then look to see if anything jumped off the page out on the east end of Pitkin. But its a needle in a hay stack lol. I was hoping that school would have been a good candidate to have information available. thanks again Marc |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by handbrake on Sun Feb 6 22:14:58 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 6 17:50:23 2011. The following is an interesting aside to the great debate of the 76th Street Queens subway station. When construction of the Second Avenue subway was halted in the mid 1970's, NYCT maintained the completed sections of subway tunnel, and conducted periodic inspections of the tunnels by agency structural engineers.This information having been supplied by a NYCT Telephone Maintainer who performed routines on both emergency alarm (EA), and emergency telephones boxes throughout the subway system. All completed Second Avenue subway tunnel segments were equipped with emergency telephone call boxes that were maintained by NYCT MoW personnel. If there was a subway tunnel that led to a station at 76th Street, NYCT would have been obligated to inspect, and maintain the structural integrity of the subway segment under debate, and include at a minimum emergency telephone call boxes along the ROW. This past week I had a discussion regarding sealed tunnel segments with a NYCT CPM structures engineer at 2 Broadway. With the resulting answer being that there are plenty of abandoned underground areas in the transit system that have been sealed off over the years. Personally, based on available public photos, and discussion by many in this forum, I believe that tracks A1 through A4 end at a subway tunnel bulkhead wall. The cinder/cement block wall found on the Pitkin yard track leads appears to fuel the speculation of a station/ or station shell in the vicinity of 76th Street Queens. My statement will certainly not end any of the detailed discussions, theories, or and suppositions. However it does make for both good reading, and sidebar information from many site contributors. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 6 22:24:44 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by handbrake on Sun Feb 6 22:14:58 2011. Certainly ... but FWIW, those little blue light boxes that we had to depend on heavily when confronted with homeballs that wouldn't go away (in the days before radios) were usually among the very last bits of infrastructure to go in. Allegedly, there was no track, pipe, signal heads or anything else "back there" aside from what was installed right at the ends that did get track laid. So not having to maintain a largely empty cavern with little to nothing in it after it was backfilled (so they say) wouldn't be a big surprise either, especially considering that it was abandoned long before the policies of the MTA came to bear.That said, I agree that the absence of any records is every bit as interesting. And to just boil the pot a little more furiously, there isn't even any paperwork for abandonment. You'd think for something designed and partially constructed (we'll assume that it ends RIGHT at the cement blocks and it's all rock behind them) that there would at least have been a final report on "site closed." :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Sun Feb 6 22:26:07 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Marc A. Rivlin on Sun Feb 6 20:05:03 2011. I woudl think the best course of research outside of the archivesof the (successor to) The Board of Transportation would be the DEP. They would show the location and elevation of the storm and sanitary sewers on Pitkin Avenue. There should also be construction documents from whenever the sewers were built, probably post-1948, that might be instructive. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by handbrake on Sun Feb 6 22:35:26 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 6 22:24:44 2011. While looking at system route map (Not the plain vanilla subway map distributed to civilians), the subway segment between ENY & Euclid is shown as Route 310-10. The 310-10 subway route ID changes when the subway line turns towards Grant Avenue to go overhead. However the map is not to scale, and it is difficult to determine at what geographic point each subway route segment begins, and or ends. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 6 22:52:44 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by handbrake on Sun Feb 6 22:35:26 2011. Yeah, the original three-way split there must have been rather interesting for the "chain gangs." :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by handbrake on Sun Feb 6 23:09:56 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 6 22:52:44 2011. I found the photos that were taken a the end of tunnel wall south of Euclid interesting. Little to no visible steel dust "soot" on the walls, compared to the rest of that line. I wonder if the photographer had a valid track safety card, approved PPE, and operating under point to point flagging rules and escorted by construction flagging C/R's (Assuming a valid NYCT contractor).If not, the only Chain Gang might be that of a Transit adjudication hearing official downtown. Anyone contemplating a first hand investigation of this urban legend physically at the tunnel wall. "Trains operate on any track, in any direction, and at any time." |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 6 23:24:40 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by handbrake on Sun Feb 6 23:09:56 2011. I'm sure they weren't carrying a valid G-2 either. :)I've already offered a nice solution to the mystery that can be done "off property" in simply dragging a nice little ground-penetrating radar sled across a few intersections above the location. Don't need to ruffle any feathers at 2 Bway over it either ... Yeah, funny thing about trackways ... without wheels and rails, the steel dust levels are a lot lower. Heh. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by DHeese810 on Sun Feb 6 23:29:45 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 6 23:24:40 2011. We don't even need a sled, a tricycle is much better...http://www.geophysical.com/utilityscan.htm |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 6 23:34:03 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by DHeese810 on Sun Feb 6 23:29:45 2011. Kewl! Only problem is that the 270 MHz model only seems to be good for about 18 feet. I'm expecting that we'd need to see about 30 down, but that one's a good start ... |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by DHeese810 on Sun Feb 6 23:36:29 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 6 23:34:03 2011. Yes i just saw that :(. Im sure there is another model somewhere that has the same mobility with more depth.-Dan |
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