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| Re: Rick Perry commits another murder (845113) | |
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Re: Rick Perry commits another murder |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Sep 23 09:20:46 2011, in response to Re: Rick Perry commits another murder, posted by Fred G on Fri Sep 23 08:45:21 2011. In fact, some distinguished American lawyers thought the Nuremberg trials were illegitimate because the charges were levied ex post facto. |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Sep 23 09:26:27 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by AlM on Fri Sep 23 09:15:52 2011. If we have that little confidence in proof beyond reasonable doubt, we shouldn't be imprisoning people either. |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Sep 23 09:27:29 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Sep 23 08:20:31 2011. Could be. |
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Re: Rick Perry commits another murder |
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Posted by Dave on Fri Sep 23 09:28:04 2011, in response to Re: Rick Perry commits another murder, posted by Fred G on Fri Sep 23 08:45:21 2011. 'Fraid not, Fred. Hitler believed in the rule of men, not the rule of law. Within months of taking power he enacted Fuhrergewalt - Fuhrer's power - and it became the absolute law of the land. Hitler's every maniacal whim was immediately translated into codes and regulations.When the normal courts stood in their way, the Nazis established their own courts - Volksgerichthof - the People's Courts. |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Sep 23 09:29:09 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by Fred G on Wed Sep 21 20:33:00 2011. What's funny about it? |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Sep 23 09:31:48 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Sep 23 09:29:09 2011. What do you mean funny? |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by JayMan on Fri Sep 23 09:35:34 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Sep 23 09:14:29 2011. I said where relevant... |
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Re: Rick Perry commits another murder |
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Posted by Fred G on Fri Sep 23 09:39:50 2011, in response to Re: Rick Perry commits another murder, posted by Dave on Fri Sep 23 09:28:04 2011. Yeahbut it was still the law, Dave, and was observed.your pal, Fred |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by Fred G on Fri Sep 23 09:40:48 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Sep 23 09:29:09 2011. You mean funny like a clown, funny?your pal, Tommy |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Sep 23 10:59:30 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Sep 23 09:27:29 2011. Well, it would be my worst nightmare to be called as a witness to a crime. I'm sure I couldn't give a very useful description*.* Actually, I know from experience that I couldn't. About ten years ago, two guys decided to try to mug a friend of mine on the top deck of a double-decker bus. When they started getting violent, I kicked one of them hard in the balls, pushed him into his friend, and then shoved them both down the stairs. My friend insisted on reporting it to the police, and when a policeman came round to take a statement from me, I had to admit that I had no idea what they looked like, beyond their both being white and one of them being fatter than the other. |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Sep 23 11:04:57 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Sep 23 09:00:59 2011. But it's actually more expensive to execute someone because the state has to pay for the appeals. |
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Re: Rick Perry commits another murder |
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Posted by Dave on Fri Sep 23 11:21:01 2011, in response to Re: Rick Perry commits another murder, posted by Fred G on Fri Sep 23 09:39:50 2011. Not so, Fred. When Hitler was appointed in January 1933, Germany was a democracy. Germany had fair elections; nobody had their right to vote abused; and there were numerous political parties you could vote for. To pass a law the Reichstag had to agree to it after a bill went through the normal processes of discussion, arguments, etc.Hitler had promised a general election for March 1933. One week before the election was due to take place, the Reichstag building burned down. Hitler immediately declared that it was the signal for a communist takeover of the nation. Hitler asked President Hindenburg to grant him emergency powers in view of the 'communist takeover'. Using the constitution, Hindenburg agreed to pass the Law for the Protection of the People and the State. The election took place in March. Hitler did not get the number of votes he wanted but he did get enough to get over a 50% majority in the Reichstag. After the burning down of the Reichstag, politicians had nowhere to meet. The Kroll Opera House in Berlin was chosen. On March 23rd, 1933, elected officials were due to meet to discuss and vote on Hitler's Enabling Law. As elected officials neared the building they found it surrounded by SS and SA thugs who ensured that only Nazi or Nationalist politicians got in. The vote for this law was crucial as it gave Hitler a vast amount of power. The law basically stated that any bill only needed Hitler's signature and within 24 hours that bill would become law in Germany. With only Nazis and other right wing politicians inside the Kroll Opera House, the bill was quickly passed into law. The act gave Hitler what he wanted - dictatorial power. What he wanted would become law in Germany within 24 hours of his signature being put on paper. Now you tell me - does this sound like a valid law was passed, given that only one party was allowed into the building to vote? |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Sep 23 11:21:46 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Sep 23 08:20:31 2011. Actually, if you read what the witnesses are saying, their recantations are largely based on their accounts of being pressured to finger Davis as the kiler, by police abd the DA. |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Sep 23 11:30:00 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Sep 23 08:57:04 2011. I am in favor of the death penalty for treason. |
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Re: Rick Perry commits another murder |
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Posted by Fred G on Fri Sep 23 11:34:36 2011, in response to Re: Rick Perry commits another murder, posted by Dave on Fri Sep 23 11:21:01 2011. You're injecting U.S. and other democratic style legal principals into a dictatorship. It doesn't matter how valid the law is in U.S. legal terms. If it is the law in fact then it is the law and for the purposes of this discussion where it's claimed that executions are ok so long as the law states they are, then it is the law of the land.your pal, Fred |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by Train Dude on Fri Sep 23 11:41:17 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Sep 23 11:21:46 2011. If Davis claimed that he was there but didn't pull the trigger, then why did he not name who did? Seems to me that with his life at stake the code of the streets is out the window. |
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Re: Rick Perry commits another murder |
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Posted by Dave on Fri Sep 23 12:00:01 2011, in response to Re: Rick Perry commits another murder, posted by Fred G on Fri Sep 23 11:34:36 2011. A law that's not validly enacted is not a valid law, Fred. Keeping half of the elected officials out of the building has that effect, ya know. |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Sep 23 12:07:12 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Sep 23 11:04:57 2011. So basically, life without parole might be a cheap form of execution... |
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Re: Rick Perry commits another murder |
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Posted by Fred G on Fri Sep 23 12:10:55 2011, in response to Re: Rick Perry commits another murder, posted by Dave on Fri Sep 23 12:00:01 2011. It's as valid as any monarch's imposed law would be. You could fast forward through the one-sided voting and get to the spot where Hitler would have declared it law anyway as he was Führer. Might makes right in this case. I don't think it's valid in a constitutional/democracy sense but in terms of a dictatorship, it's valid and best be obeyed.your pal, Fred |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Sep 23 12:14:40 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Sep 23 10:59:30 2011. heh |
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Re: Rick Perry commits another murder |
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Posted by Dave on Fri Sep 23 12:16:06 2011, in response to Re: Rick Perry commits another murder, posted by Fred G on Fri Sep 23 12:10:55 2011. Keeping out half of the elected officials was a violation of the German constitution. That's what made the vote invalid.Guess we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by Train Dude on Fri Sep 23 12:16:58 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Sep 23 12:14:40 2011. Balls: Those are the 2 organs in the scrotum, protruding from the groin, between a man's legs. I'm sure you've seen pictures. |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Sep 23 12:20:26 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Sep 23 11:21:46 2011. LOL |
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Re: Rick Perry commits another murder |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Sep 23 12:21:06 2011, in response to Re: Rick Perry commits another murder, posted by Fred G on Fri Sep 23 12:10:55 2011. I think he's saying that it wasn't a "dictatorship" until this one law was passed. But this one law was passed illegally. So the changeover from democracy to "dictatorship" was an illegal action under existing German law. |
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Re: Rick Perry commits another murder |
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Posted by Fred G on Fri Sep 23 12:21:43 2011, in response to Re: Rick Perry commits another murder, posted by Dave on Fri Sep 23 12:16:06 2011. I agree it's invalid in Constitutional terms but yeah, we're not closing on the sale here :)your pal, Fred |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by Railman718 on Fri Sep 23 12:23:03 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by Train Dude on Fri Sep 23 12:16:58 2011. LMBAO!!!! |
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Re: Rick Perry commits another murder |
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Posted by Fred G on Fri Sep 23 12:28:37 2011, in response to Re: Rick Perry commits another murder, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Sep 23 12:21:06 2011. Yeah, he's right from a written law/constitutional viewpoint but I'm coming more from a tribal law POV where yes, the dictatorship is illegitimate, but the power of force makes it the law of the land, and gives it de facto validity. Dave is of course correct in a constitutional legal sense.your pal, Fred |
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Re: Rick Perry commits another murder |
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Posted by JayMan on Fri Sep 23 12:43:14 2011, in response to Re: Rick Perry commits another murder, posted by Fred G on Fri Sep 23 12:28:37 2011. Dave is of course correct in a constitutional legal sense.Indeed, but the law only matters as far as there is a state to enforce it. As under Hilter, the state was the Nazis, all the stuff of the Wiemar went right out the window... |
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Re: Rick Perry commits another murder |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Sep 23 12:57:08 2011, in response to Re: Rick Perry commits another murder, posted by Fred G on Fri Sep 23 12:28:37 2011. Ah, excellent. Then we agree. |
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Re: Rick Perry commits another murder |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Sep 23 13:41:10 2011, in response to Re: Rick Perry commits another murder, posted by Dave on Fri Sep 23 09:28:04 2011. Hitler believed in the rule of men, not the rule of lawpwn3d. |
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Re: Rick Perry commits another murder |
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Posted by Fred G on Fri Sep 23 14:01:14 2011, in response to Re: Rick Perry commits another murder, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Sep 23 13:41:10 2011. Not really, he proved me right when he said Within months of taking power he enacted Fuhrergewalt - Fuhrer's power - and it became the absolute law of the land.your pal, Fred |
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Re: Rick Perry commits another murder |
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Posted by Dave on Fri Sep 23 14:36:50 2011, in response to Re: Rick Perry commits another murder, posted by Fred G on Fri Sep 23 14:01:14 2011. FWIW, this dialogue between me and Fred shows it IS possible to have a civil disagreement here. |
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Re: Rick Perry commits another murder |
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Posted by Fred G on Fri Sep 23 14:41:18 2011, in response to Re: Rick Perry commits another murder, posted by Dave on Fri Sep 23 14:36:50 2011. That's cuz we're pro's, Dave :)your pal, Fred |
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Re: Rick Perry commits another murder |
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Posted by Dave on Fri Sep 23 15:26:11 2011, in response to Re: Rick Perry commits another murder, posted by Fred G on Fri Sep 23 14:41:18 2011. Scary. LOL!! |
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Re: Rick Perry commits another murder |
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Posted by Fred G on Fri Sep 23 15:28:32 2011, in response to Re: Rick Perry commits another murder, posted by Dave on Fri Sep 23 15:26:11 2011. Hahaha! True that.your pal, Fred |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by JohnL on Fri Sep 23 20:16:50 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Sep 23 10:59:30 2011. Which is also interesting in context. You just provided another instance of why eyewitness evidence is generally unreliable. And you were witnessing the incident first-hand on a well-lighted bus (I presume).Let’s translate that to a dark street and see how reliable the evidence is. |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by JohnL on Fri Sep 23 20:32:01 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Sep 23 07:09:57 2011. Don’t bother. If there is one thing that Brian excels in, it’s OCD and the stamina to pursue it trans nauseam. Unfortunately.It’s Friday evening, so we are now into the blessed, quiet Turtle-free zone. But it will be interesting to see whether the OCD turtle can resist responding to this accurate description of his deficits. If so, my only reply will be QED. |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by JohnL on Fri Sep 23 20:32:42 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Sep 22 13:23:11 2011. Cameron Todd Willingham. |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Sep 23 20:47:20 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by JohnL on Fri Sep 23 20:16:50 2011. And you were witnessing the incident first-hand on a well-lighted bus (I presume).Oh yes, it was about midday on a Saturday on an MCW Metrobus. But that might just demonstrate that I notice completely useless details. I'm not convinced that everyone else is as spectacularly bad at noticing the right details as me. |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Sep 23 20:48:15 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Sep 23 20:47:20 2011. With all the bleeding cameras over there, I'm surprised they didn't have the perp from six different angles. :) |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Sep 23 20:50:22 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Sep 23 10:59:30 2011. police report? |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Sep 23 21:05:19 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Sep 23 20:48:15 2011. You don't believe they work, do you? They're probably even running Windows ME. |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by JohnL on Fri Sep 23 21:20:44 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Sep 23 20:47:20 2011. Oh yes, it was about midday on a Saturday on an MCW Metrobus. But that might just demonstrate that I notice completely useless details. I'm not convinced that everyone else is as spectacularly bad at noticing the right details as me.We have no evidence, other than your own admission, about your capabilities as an eyewitness. But neither do we have any evidence about the eyewitnesses to Troy Davis’ incident. And identification line-ups are notoriously unreliable. Why don’t the police parade, say, 4 people, all of whom might be like the suspect, multiple times, with different clothing, so that the eyewitness doesn’t know whether the suspect is in the group or not? Or any similar technique which really can provide a reliable identification? Given that the death penalty was the sanction here, I would like to have seen some reliable forensic evidence, as well as recanted eyewitness testimony. |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Sep 23 21:22:00 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Sep 23 21:05:19 2011. Well that's better than the MTA right there ... they run NT4. :) |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by Train Dude on Fri Sep 23 21:55:27 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by JohnL on Fri Sep 23 21:20:44 2011. That's bullshit unless you think that you are more capable to judge than the appeals court. If he was there and did not pull the trigger, why didn't he name the person who did? Still waiting for one of you doubters to answer that question. |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Sep 23 22:11:55 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by Train Dude on Fri Sep 23 21:55:27 2011. If he was there and did not pull the trigger, why didn't he name the person who did?I doubt that this Davis feller was so "noble" as to die for someone else. |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by Train Dude on Fri Sep 23 22:26:48 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Sep 23 22:11:55 2011. Understatement |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Sep 23 22:56:11 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Sep 23 12:07:12 2011. I am inclined to say that life without parole should also never be applied. For one thing, the remote possibility that a prison may someday be released may make them more compliant prisoners, even if the parole board never approves parole. |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by JohnL on Sat Sep 24 00:24:43 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by Train Dude on Fri Sep 23 21:55:27 2011. Hm. I wonder, because I question everything. I start with the fact that there was no forensic evidence in the case. I discount the bullet cases because guns are stolen all the time—I would hazard that the gun was stolen when Davis used it for whatever he used it for previously.But there is that little thing called reasonable doubt. I think I have reasonable doubts. I worry about recanted eye-witness testimony. Even though it wasn’t recanted in court. I wonder about pressure from cops and over-zealous DAs. I wonder whether the police found a suitable suspect and looked no further. I’m certain that Troy Davis was no angel. But was he guilty of murder beyond a reasonable doubt? I don’t think so. Do I absolutely know? No. Do I think that the world will really ever know? Perhaps, when someone on his/her deathbed tells us. |
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Re: Execution Carried Out |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sat Sep 24 00:29:01 2011, in response to Re: Execution Carried Out, posted by JohnL on Sat Sep 24 00:24:43 2011. I would hazard that the gun was stolen when Davis used it for whatever he used it for previously. LOL @ "whatever he used it for previously". Maybe he thought it was a cigarette lighter and threw it out when he found out it was real. Yes guns are stolen. But the same gun that killed the cop was used to shoot an African-American party goer the same night. |
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