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| Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling (819300) | |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by bingbong on Sat Jul 30 16:02:02 2011, in response to Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by dand124 on Sat Jul 30 15:52:43 2011. Yep. We agree on this one!They should have done this months ago. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jul 30 16:03:31 2011, in response to Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by dand124 on Sat Jul 30 15:52:43 2011. Excellent post. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 30 16:20:21 2011, in response to Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by dand124 on Sat Jul 30 15:52:43 2011. Wait, do you want it raised or abolished?From your past posts, you sounded highly libertarian, meaning you should be against any debt ceiling raise. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by David Fairthorne on Sat Jul 30 16:21:58 2011, in response to Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by dand124 on Sat Jul 30 15:52:43 2011. The Debt ceiling is just a stupid technicality that should be abolished.Agreed, but that would require a change to the law. I don't think the Republicans would agree to make such a change between now and Tuesday. Some people are saying that the Fourteenth Amendment should be invoked. It says (in part): "The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned." This seems to be quite a stretch, as it was intended to apply to payments made in the Civil War. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jul 30 16:22:04 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 30 16:20:21 2011. So libertarians should be in favor of defaulting on obligations the United States has already entered into? |
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LION! Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jul 30 16:23:16 2011, in response to Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by dand124 on Sat Jul 30 15:52:43 2011. There are actually two debt ceilings.Just look in your own pocket, and pull out a credit card. You *can* say to this card "I will not charge more that $1000 on you" and that is the credit limit or "debt ceiling" that *you* put on it. THAT is the ceiling that the government has reached now. That is to say that congress has decreed "You shall carry this much debt, and no more." THE OTHER DEBT CEILING is the one the bank gave you when you applied for the card. Break that one, and you will find that you have no more credit, and the card will be declined in the stores when you go shopping. Well, we are pretty damn close to that one too, but that one CANNOT BE ADJUSTED by congress or by signing bills into law. Congress can raise their debt ceiling to twenty-five-zillion dollars if they want, but if nobody will loan it to them, it is just tough $#!+. Our inability to use credit wisely, by depending on credit for what are essentially day to day expenses, will lower our credit rating so that we will have to pay more and more interest for less and less capital. To fix this you must either have more income, or else fewer expenses. You *can* go to your boss and ask for a raise, and you might even get it, but unless the boss is in a good economic position it is more likely that he will not give you that raise. YOU will have to cut expenses and you will have to live within your means. Obama has come before the nation asking for an increase in the debt ceiling AND for in increase of Federal income. But when Obama was in the Senate he did vote AGAINST a raise in the debt ceiling. Politics? You are damn right politics! He asked his banker (you and me) for an increase in his credit limit, and this is still pending. He asked his boss (you and me) for an increase in his income and Mister Dithers tossed him out on his ear! The Republicans in the House are doing EXACTLY what they were sent there to do: to put a limit on this foolish administration! No more money, spend only what we have given you and no more. The DEMOCRATS had the opportunity and the LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY to pass a budget last year at this time, but they refused to do so, now an election has passed, and it is the Republicans who control the House (from where ALL spending bills MUST arise) and they are NOT going to increase anything, or so it is to be hoped by those who put them there. Not raising the debt ceiling is NOT going to put the nation in default. There *IS* money coming in and the debt *can* be serviced, but clearly not all government expenses can me met under the current debt ceiling. Let Obama cut spending here and now, or he can go fly a kite, which he will be doing in 2012 anyway. 
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 30 16:26:09 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jul 30 16:22:04 2011. Libertarians understand that "default" is not going to happen. We still bring in far more revenues than we need to meet our debt obligation. All a failure of raising the debt ceiling would force is a dramatic reduction in discretionary spending. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jul 30 16:26:10 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by David Fairthorne on Sat Jul 30 16:21:58 2011. True, however the "shall not be questioned part" was basically reïterating what was already understood to be true for the purposes of ensuring that the subsequent provision about Confederate war debt not be implied to apply to any legitimate debt. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by SMAZ on Sat Jul 30 16:26:43 2011, in response to Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by dand124 on Sat Jul 30 15:52:43 2011. What's the hell is the matter with you?Have you lost your anarcho-libertarian bearings? If we keep taking on debt, the murder of Afghan children will continue to be funded, the Nanny State and the taking of civil liberties will continue unabated and anti-piracy laws will continue to be enforced. The Somalian Dream will be put off. Ayn Rand and Black Bloc would strongly disagree with you. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 30 16:29:16 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 30 16:20:21 2011. He openly claimed to be libertarian as well. Guess he ain't after all! |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 30 16:29:33 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jul 30 16:26:10 2011. And even if you concede it refers to any debt, it does not confer, nor does it infer any powers upon the Chief Executive to authorize the borrowing of money against the will of Congress under Article 1, Section 8. |
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Re: LION! Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 30 16:30:58 2011, in response to LION! Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jul 30 16:23:16 2011. Dems had 2 years to do all the things they want the GOP to concede, they had one year in which the GOP basically had no power to do anything but complain. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 30 16:34:38 2011, in response to Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by dand124 on Sat Jul 30 15:52:43 2011. GOPtards can't even figure that out. They firmly believe that any of this is about the budget. "MORANS." |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by SMAZ on Sat Jul 30 16:34:53 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 30 16:26:09 2011. Agreed.I can't wait. It's the only way to free all those contractors, hospitals, nursing homes, universities, farm interests, research institutions, infrastructure construction firms, etc from the Slavery of government contracts and services and the American People from their slavish dependence on low interest rates, a phony currency and cheap foreign products. I am with you on this one. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 30 16:35:44 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jul 30 16:22:04 2011. Nope ... only republicans want us paying double digit interest rates, unemployment up to 20% and no chance in hell to EVER pay off the debt. They won. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 30 16:36:06 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 30 16:26:09 2011. Bookmarked for Tuesday. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 30 16:37:15 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 30 16:29:33 2011. And he's not going to. Republicans want to kill America? Last time didn't teach anybody reality? OK, genius ... done. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by bingbong on Sat Jul 30 16:37:59 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 30 16:26:09 2011. We only take in a portion of what we need on a monthly basis most months (quarters differ). We do not have enough money in August to meet obligations. Obligations are not just debt interest.Also, Chris,"discretionary spending" (which your words belittle to make it seem like they're going out in DC and buying big screen TVs or Nintendos) includes items like the unwanted C-17 that the republican House authorized spending for last week.Why'd that happen in the midst of a fiscal crisis dispute? Pork for an Ohio Congresstroll? |
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Re: LION! Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 30 16:38:47 2011, in response to LION! Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jul 30 16:23:16 2011. And meanwhile, not a morsel of this childishness has anything to do with the budget. The banks were perfectly willing to increase the credit limit on a basis that future budget negotiations would turn the debt around. Instead, we're giving the bank the finger. Gotta love it. :( |
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Re: LION! Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 30 16:39:18 2011, in response to Re: LION! Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 30 16:30:58 2011. And now they're in power and they're STILL complaining and doing fuck all. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 30 16:40:09 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by SMAZ on Sat Jul 30 16:26:43 2011. Not to mention Ru Paul.But it just shows to go you how absolutely insane republicans are now that libertarians are higher up the evolutionary scale. :( |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by dand124 on Sat Jul 30 16:57:49 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 30 16:20:21 2011. Wait, do you want it raised or abolished?Ideally I’d like it abolished but it should be raised now. From your past posts, you sounded highly libertarian, meaning you should be against any debt ceiling raise. I’d like congress to cut spending; but the time to that is during the budget debate in September not now. Congress has already approved the spending they shouldn’t have to separately approve the debt needed to finance that spending. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 30 17:07:17 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by dand124 on Sat Jul 30 16:57:49 2011. THANK YOU!*THAT* is "Reason" ... something completely elusive to the republican idiots. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by SMAZ on Sat Jul 30 17:30:54 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by dand124 on Sat Jul 30 16:57:49 2011. A balanced budget amendment is a GOOD thing.It sets priorities straight. Had we had one in 2001, we wouldn't be where we are today. Since any constitutional amendments requires 2/3 of Congress,the final product would be well crafted and bipartisan with enough escape valves to account for periods of economic weakness or emergencies. ideally it would require 2/3 majorities for any provisions that would bust a budget, whether in new expenditure or provisions that result in loss of existing revenues. Same with emergencies or wars. A balanced budget would clarify our national priorities and since it's the people who elect the legislators, the result would be tax fairness, the dismantling of our role of world policeman (with borrowed money) and the establishment by popular demand of a sozial-market with the money that we have. Basically when push comes to shove, Social Security, Medicare, VA, FHA, Medicaid, Head Start and Pell Grants stay while corporate welfare and assorted subsidies and giveaways die. In order to keep spending and tax rates stable, you'd get a real effort to re-establish manufacturing and domestic production to maintain growth. You'd see the demise of the NWO and the return of targeted tariffs and other protectionist measures to protect and grow our own production. This would also empower workers and result in higher wages, consumption and tax revenues (with resulting surpluses which would be used to pay down old debt). We would become like Australia. A BBA is the only way to restrain politicians from useless spending or unfunded tax giveaways and destructive trade practices. The only problem is that there are too many Mooch States that would lose BIG with such an amendment in place. More than 12, that's for sure. It may never be ratified. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by Fred G on Sat Jul 30 17:33:45 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by SMAZ on Sat Jul 30 17:30:54 2011. This would also empower workers and result in higher wages...You just lost the GOP and Wall Street. your pal, Fred |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by bingbong on Sat Jul 30 17:39:04 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by SMAZ on Sat Jul 30 17:30:54 2011. A balanced budget amendment is a very bad thing. If they had one, there would be no flexibility for unforeseen circumstances, like instantaneous responses that are often necessary to a natural or manmade disaster. Could you imagine Annoying Orange & Co having to resolve an emergency measure for anything? Look at the mess they made of the debt ceiling issue, something they were told to finish some 6+ months ago. It's down to hours before catastrophe. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 30 17:39:33 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by SMAZ on Sat Jul 30 17:30:54 2011. A balanced budget amendment does NOT belong in a debt ceiling bill. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by SMAZ on Sat Jul 30 17:48:02 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by bingbong on Sat Jul 30 17:39:04 2011. If they had one, there would be no flexibility for unforeseen circumstances, like instantaneous responses that are often necessary to a natural or manmade disaster.As I said, the ideal amendment would contain mechanisms to address situations where it is necessary to bust the budget but it would have to require a supermajority. If 2/3 of Congress doesn't think a natural or manmade disaster is not worthy of emergency spending, then it probably isn't. It would cut down on the abuse of emergency funding for every piss-ant flood or drought out there and eliminate the artificial incentives and disincentives that the government now legitimizes and subsidizes for certain practices. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 30 17:51:35 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by SMAZ on Sat Jul 30 17:48:02 2011. All well and good and SHOULD be in the budget bill. The current "debt ceiling" bill however is about PAST debts, and welching on them will get our nation's knees broken. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by SMAZ on Sat Jul 30 17:53:35 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 30 17:39:33 2011. If passing a BBA is the only way to avert default, both parties would be forced to hash out an amendment that would get 2/3 in both chambers.That means the final product would be fair, workable and bipartisan. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by SMAZ on Sat Jul 30 17:55:51 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 30 17:51:35 2011. Sometimes you need to destroy the village in order to save it. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 30 17:56:27 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by SMAZ on Sat Jul 30 17:53:35 2011. Bipartisan. LOLDems have caved to the republicans throughout and it's never enough. Time for the GOP to try a compromise of ANYTHING for once. :( |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 30 17:58:32 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by SMAZ on Sat Jul 30 17:55:51 2011. My only plaint in all this is that people are NOT being told the truth about what this is about, what the real repercussions will be, and somehow are being lead to believe that THEIR village will somehow be spared.We shouldn't give a shit either way since we are debt free and none of this is going to harm us. But it just ain't right to remain silent either. If we go down, there's going to be hell to pay and all there is in response is LOL about it. Really? :( |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by SMAZ on Sat Jul 30 18:09:07 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 30 17:58:32 2011. If the government will only to be able to pay out what it takes in August, it will become clear to those in power what's important to the People and what's not.What they want from their Gov't and what they can do without. Everyone will be taking notice. that alone would be enough for a starting point baseline in any discourse about where to spend taxpayer money and what and who and how much to tax in order to provide such services in a BBA environment. It would be ugly but also catarthic. people will finally understand that's it's not a game of who's up or who's down or which "team" is winning. Look at dand124. His Pell Grant is probably not gonna come through and now he's pissed. That's the quickest way to get somebody to burn his Atlas Shrugged book. Seeing what "living within our means" REALLY means wakes up the mind. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by bingbong on Sat Jul 30 18:24:46 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by SMAZ on Sat Jul 30 18:09:07 2011. Looks like he's actually finding enlightenment. Last lesson comes when the republicans eliminate Pell grants as a whole (after all, poor people shouldn't go to college is part of the republican gospel) to support more taxcuts for millionaires. That'll come around late September. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Jul 30 18:26:17 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by SMAZ on Sat Jul 30 17:48:02 2011. excellent post. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Jul 30 18:27:14 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by SMAZ on Sat Jul 30 18:09:07 2011. good god, another good post I agree with. i really apologize for putting you in the bingbong & co post.... |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 30 18:28:17 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by SMAZ on Sat Jul 30 18:09:07 2011. I've been watching reaction across the world the last few days and it's universally "fuck you, America." Australia is filthy rich because of the gold panic and sneering at us. Funniest of all was Ireland wanting to loan us some money. :)But the REAL issue to me is that the rioting teabaggers are the first ones in line for government to get out of their medicare. And all of this the result of the Bush years. Obama is taking the blame for all that while the republicans skate? I don't think so ... if it's going to be a day of reckoning, then it better damn well apply to the actual perps. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by mr mabstoa on Sat Jul 30 18:29:14 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 30 16:37:15 2011. You sure about that?GE is moving its xray division to China, the same GE that pays no taxes in the US. Oh yeah, and the CEO J Immelt is head of Obama's job council. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 30 18:29:33 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Jul 30 18:27:14 2011. Eh? He's all liberaled out with that post. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Jul 30 18:30:55 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 30 17:56:27 2011. it's the democrats that have NO CLUE how to compromise. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Jul 30 18:31:26 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by SMAZ on Sat Jul 30 17:53:35 2011. correct. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 30 18:31:48 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Jul 30 18:26:17 2011. Heh. Next time New York is attacked, do you know what that means? Nah. Eat the porridge. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 30 18:32:47 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by mr mabstoa on Sat Jul 30 18:29:14 2011. Same GE that employed 5000 upstate. Ah well ... your taxes can cover their welfare, right? We know you're good for the money so no problem. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by dand124 on Sat Jul 30 18:35:12 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by SMAZ on Sat Jul 30 18:09:07 2011. My ideology hasn’t’ changed a bit a still favor free markets plus a welfare state as I have for some time. I have never been a fan Ayn Rand outside of your imagination. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 30 18:38:26 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Jul 30 18:30:55 2011. You're kidding ... :(SINGLE PAYER > insurance program Stimulus > repealed unemployment extension > killed investment tax credit > killed high speed rail > killed Want more? |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by bingbong on Sat Jul 30 18:39:08 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Jul 30 18:30:55 2011. How, especially after the past few weeks, can anyone imagine that? Boner walked out on talks THREE times while negotiating this, after serious concessions were made. They cannot eliminate Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid and it's crystal clear that is what the republicans are trying to do here. They know they'd never be able to pass legislation to do so. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by bingbong on Sat Jul 30 18:40:19 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 30 17:58:32 2011. Problem is the village is Social Security and Medicare. |
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Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Jul 30 18:42:20 2011, in response to Re: Just raise the F###ing debt ceiling, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 30 18:31:48 2011. please. even SMAZ who is as liberal as they come isn't half as partisan (at least on this issue) as you or bingbong (or at least the way you present yourself here). |
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