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| Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad (1173332) | |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 16:18:14 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 16:16:28 2014. Citation still needed.When did I call someone a racist who wasn't a racist? |
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Re: ''Conservative'' Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 16:23:30 2014, in response to Re: ''Conservative'' Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 14 08:49:00 2014. You declare the entire population of North America prior to the first European settlers to be effectively non-human and then you wonder why I call you a racist. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 16:25:05 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Mon Apr 14 14:16:28 2014. You have American citizenship, they don't...Why not? Why can't they just apply for American citizenship? |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 16:34:25 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 14 14:31:39 2014. Huh? There's a process to immigrating to the US. There's paperwork, and things you have to do. You can't just come here and decide to stay.I just decided to stay and I certainly never did any of the things in your two links. No they haven't. Yes, they did. I certainly didn't do any of the things in those links you posted. When you moved from where? From my previous apartment. Are you a natural born citizen? Why do you need to know my race to know whether I have a "right" to live here? See, this is the crux of the argument. You seem to claim that a person's fundamental rights to live and work are contingent on the accident of his birth. You have yet to provide any justification for this belief, despite my repeated requests. If you are a natural born American citizen, they you are NOT an immigrant. If you are a naturalized citizen, obviously you did what you need legally to do so. If you are a LEGAL Alien, you have a green card which means you did what you need to get that. I never got a green card, I never got a visa, I never applied for any permission to live in New York from anyone, and the idea that the circumstances of my birth should convey special privileges is absurd. If you have none of those things, and you are not here on a travel or work visa (that is not expired), or other paperwork that says you are allowed to be here, you are ILLEGAL. There is no paperwork that says I'm "allowed" to be here independent of that which records my birth. So either I'm "illegal" or you're a bigot. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 16:42:42 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 15:20:16 2014. More specifically, you're trying to claim that who gets the easy process and who is forced to go through the nearly impossible process should be determined by birth and ancestry— distinctions generally categorised under "race."That is not "race." People who are citizens of any other country go through the same process. Or do you believe "American" is its own race? |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 16:46:35 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 16:42:42 2014. The category of "race" is murky at best, and has been applied to physical traits, ancestry, and culture— it's basically a catch-all term for bigotry that doesn't fall into other categories.That said, the exact definition of race really doesn't matter. The point is that your right to live and work in New York is contingent on the accident of your birth. Granting or withholding rights to specific individuals based on inborn traits is bigotry, so we're really just arguing over the semantics of what kind of bigotry it is. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 16:47:10 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 15:57:20 2014. No, I determine that someone is a racist because they think they think a society established by white people is a "country" whose laws have to be obeyed, but the society that those white people forcibly displaced doesn't count at all.If you're not a racist then answer this: Why do people who want to live in North America today need permission from the people already living on the continent, but the people who came to North America a few hundred years ago not only didn't need permission from the people already living on the continent, but were perfectly justified in killing them? That is a nonsensical argument. In an ideal world, the genocide of the Aboriginal Americans would never have happened, but it did and we can't take it back. If they had been expelled and were seeking the right to return to North America I would be in favor of granting such right within limits. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 16:49:39 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 15:00:24 2014. No, it's not. Unless you are opposed to the entire concept of nationality. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 16:59:46 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 16:47:10 2014. In an ideal world, the genocide of the Aboriginal Americans would never have happened, but it did and we can't take it back.The problem is that the existence of the legal entity of the United States is contingent on that genocide, so claiming its presence is legitimate and its laws must be obeyed necessarily endorses that genocide. If I kill you and take your house, then that was wrong and I can't take it back, but I shouldn't be allowed to keep your house and it would be ridiculous of me to claim that while stealing your house certainly was wrong, my claim to it is nonetheless legitimate and my right to kick other people out of it is absolute. If they had been expelled and were seeking the right to return to North America I would be in favor of granting such right within limits. That would be more like if I kicked you out of your house and, when you asked to return, I offered you the right to move back in with me subject to certain restrictions. Neither argument changes the fundamental point— Chris claimed that the original American society didn't "count" and the current American society does. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 17:00:16 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 16:49:39 2014. Define "nationality." |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 17:06:17 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 16:18:14 2014. GP38/R42 Chris. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Mon Apr 14 17:07:50 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 16:03:59 2014. lol ! |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by dand124 on Mon Apr 14 17:08:57 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 16:18:14 2014. everyone who agreed with the George Zimmerman verdict. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 17:15:27 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 16:46:35 2014. Well, in that case, bigotry isn't inherently wrong. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 17:22:48 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 17:06:17 2014. GP38/R42 Chris has, at various points, claimed that native Americans don't count as people, that white privilege doesn't exist, that racial equality is "propaganda," and that white people need to stop feeling guilty about what they've done to other races, among other things."Racist" is perfectly accurate. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 17:23:21 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Mon Apr 14 17:07:50 2014. He won't, of course. He'll just slink away and hope everyone forgets. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 17:26:22 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 16:59:46 2014. If I kill you and take your house, then that was wrong and I can't take it back, but I shouldn't be allowed to keep your house and it would be ridiculous of me to claim that while stealing your house certainly was wrong, my claim to it is nonetheless legitimate and my right to kick other people out of it is absolute.Only because the government of the State of New York would use force to expel you and would side with my heirs. If there were no government, nothing would stop you from then dwelling in my house until someone decides to kill you and take over said house. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 17:28:46 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 17:15:27 2014. OK then.I'm not exactly happy about it, but at least it's refreshing when people admit to bigotry without trying to spin tall tales about how it's really not. As for myself, I believe that your value as a person and the inherent rights to which you are entitled should not be contingent on inborn traits because it's inherently unfair and gratuitous unfairness is a bad thing. Any particular reason you disagree? |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 17:31:03 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 17:00:16 2014. Persons recognized by a state as under its jurisdiction. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 17:31:49 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by dand124 on Mon Apr 14 17:08:57 2014. That too. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 17:32:34 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 17:22:48 2014. He either did not say those things or they do not make someone a racist. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 17:38:29 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 17:32:34 2014. Which is it? |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 17:41:02 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 17:26:22 2014. If there were no government...A hypothetical scenario completely unrelated to the debate. There was a government prior to European colonists. Or are you claiming they don't count? |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 17:44:03 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 17:31:03 2014. That term applies to anybody physically present in a state who is not covered by diplomatic immunity.I don't see how accepting the right of a state to make laws is inconsistent with accepting the right of people to live where they choose. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 17:45:23 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by dand124 on Mon Apr 14 17:08:57 2014. If you believe it's legal to kill someone because he's black, or that black skin is in and of itself threatening enough to give rise to a self-defense justification, then you're racist.The term remains accurate. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 17:45:59 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 17:28:46 2014. People are classified based on their strength, abilities and intelligence. It's how people participate in the economy.Bigotry is only wrong where the classifications used are suspect. There's also that we disagree that the ability to settle wherever is an inherent right. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon Apr 14 17:47:15 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Mon Apr 14 15:57:33 2014. What? |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by dand124 on Mon Apr 14 17:49:40 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 17:45:23 2014. the doesn't fit the facts of the case. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 17:51:51 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by dand124 on Mon Apr 14 17:49:40 2014. Yes it does. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 17:57:43 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 17:38:29 2014. You gave multiple reasons. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 18:01:08 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 17:45:59 2014. People are classified based on their strength, abilities and intelligence. It's how people participate in the economy. Bigotry is only wrong where the classifications used are suspect.You're equivocating talent and ability with arbitrary traits like ancestry. Men can reproduce without going through pregnancy while women can't? Genuine physical advantage. Men are entitled to bodily autonomy but women aren't? Bigotry. Charles is unable to get an entirely physical job because he is paralyzed? Genuine physical disadvantage. Charles is unable to get an entirely intellectual job because people assume that if he's paralyzed, he must also be stupid? Bigotry. Alice is better than Bob in a given field because she has innate talent? Genuine advantage. Alice is better than Bob in that field because she has training that was denied to Bob because his parents lived in the wrong place? Bigotry. There's also that we disagree that the ability to settle wherever is an inherent right. I don't see how anyone is harmed if I want to move to Hawaii or Ontario, so I don't see any reason why it should be restricted. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Mon Apr 14 18:03:25 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 17:23:21 2014. oh yeah !thats his protocol |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 18:03:56 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 17:41:02 2014. If my hypothetical scenario is unrelated, neither is yours.There was no government. The tribes were not in any way united. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 18:08:16 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 17:44:03 2014. No, because a national remains under the jurisdiction of his state when traveling outside of it.And a state has a right to make laws excluding people from outside its borders. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Apr 14 18:09:20 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by dand124 on Mon Apr 14 17:08:57 2014. Good one! |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 18:09:29 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 17:57:43 2014. Then which ones did he not say and which ones aren't racist? |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 18:16:32 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 18:03:56 2014. There was no government.Yes, there was. There were people living here. Those people had a society. That society had laws and enforced them. Ergo there was a government. The tribes were not in any way united. So what? If I steal every house in your neighborhood, I can't claim that I was justified in doing so because if the houses weren't united under one owner then they were effectively abandoned. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 18:17:19 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 18:01:08 2014. So you don't believe that all methods of classification constitute bigotry.If you could move to Ontario, so could millions of other people, and that would harm Ontario. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 18:18:38 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 18:08:16 2014. No, because a national remains under the jurisdiction of his state when traveling outside of it.Traveling outside but still residing within; technical distinction. And a state has a right to make laws excluding people from outside its borders. Begging the question. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Apr 14 18:19:59 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 18:17:19 2014. I agree with all your posts in this subthread. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 18:20:52 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Apr 14 18:09:20 2014. So you believe the murder of Trayvon Martin was justified? |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by dand124 on Mon Apr 14 18:24:54 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 18:01:08 2014. I don't see how anyone is harmed if I want to move to Hawaii or Ontario, so I don't see any reason why it should be restricted.you can't have unrestricted immigration and a welfare state. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 18:26:29 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 18:17:19 2014. So you don't believe that all methods of classification constitute bigotry.Don't tell me I need to define the term. It has a plain meaning. If you could move to Ontario, so could millions of other people, and that would harm Ontario. Harm it how? Millions of people can move to Ontario, so I find that a bit far-fetched. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 18:29:34 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by dand124 on Mon Apr 14 18:24:54 2014. Correction: You can't have unrestricted immigration and sporadic, inconsistent, and half-assed implementation of a welfare state. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Apr 14 18:29:45 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 18:03:56 2014. You're doing great but Nilet crossed into the absurd sometime last week. I don't want your head to explode. Feel free to take a breather. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 18:29:45 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 18:09:29 2014. He did not say "that native Americans don't count as people, that white privilege doesn't exist, that racial equality is 'propaganda.'" "that white people need to stop feeling guilty about what they've done to other races" is not racist. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 18:34:04 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 18:16:32 2014. If you're going to use private property as a metaphor for international relations, then you're going to have to accept that states are equivalent to landowners and can exclude whomever they want from their "property." Otherwise your metaphor doesn't work. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Apr 14 18:36:38 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 18:20:52 2014. I agree with the posts I just agreed with. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 18:38:05 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 18:18:38 2014. You were the one who brought up a state's lawmaking ability. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 18:38:58 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 18:18:38 2014. Nationals who are both present and reside outside their "home" country remain nationals of that country. |
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