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| Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign (349555) | |
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Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Oct 14 14:31:02 2024, in response to Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Oct 14 03:13:43 2024. Exactly what I figured. The MTA stated they were spending $30 more implying this meant extra service when it really means more inefficient non-revenue miles. |
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Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Oct 14 17:23:27 2024, in response to Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Oct 14 03:13:43 2024. Exactly what I figured. The MTA stated they were spending $30 more implying this meant extra service when it really means more inefficient non-revenue miles. |
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| (349641) | |
Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Oct 18 10:37:19 2024, in response to Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Sep 25 12:49:51 2024. https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/video/red-hook-residents-call-for-express-bus-service-to-manhattan/?intcid=CNM-00-10abd1h&fbclid=IwY2xjawF_Ue1leHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHcKTu0_BZS04QFX6YDaGIC_Q-E5E2AJmpcJc9CbbTf24nXmM6YUS_D2O4Q_aem_iRCeH2JEDghIknkasGgC5g |
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Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Nov 8 16:49:07 2024, in response to Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Sep 25 12:49:51 2024. I will be on Channel 2 CBS News tonight talking about the Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign. |
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Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Nov 8 20:02:49 2024, in response to Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Nov 8 16:49:07 2024. Here it is if you missed it. I spoke to the reporter for over an hour. |
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Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Nov 8 20:02:50 2024, in response to Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Nov 8 16:49:07 2024. Here it is if you missed it. I spoke to the reporter for over an hour. |
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| (349687) | |
Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Nov 8 20:02:50 2024, in response to Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Nov 8 16:49:07 2024. Here it is if you missed it. I spoke to the reporter for over an hour. |
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Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Nov 8 20:02:50 2024, in response to Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Nov 8 16:49:07 2024. Here it is if you missed it. I spoke to the reporter for over an hour. |
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| (349689) | |
Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Nov 8 20:02:50 2024, in response to Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Nov 8 16:49:07 2024. Here it is if you missed it. I spoke to the reporter for over an hour. |
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| (349690) | |
Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Nov 8 20:02:51 2024, in response to Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Nov 8 16:49:07 2024. Here it is if you missed it. I spoke to the reporter for over an hour. |
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| (349691) | |
Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Nov 8 20:02:51 2024, in response to Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Nov 8 16:49:07 2024. Here it is if you missed it. I spoke to the reporter for over an hour. |
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| (349692) | |
Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Nov 8 20:02:51 2024, in response to Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Nov 8 16:49:07 2024. Here it is if you missed it. I spoke to the reporter for over an hour. |
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| (349693) | |
Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Nov 8 20:02:51 2024, in response to Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Nov 8 16:49:07 2024. Here it is if you missed it. I spoke to the reporter for over an hour. |
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| (349694) | |
Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Nov 8 20:02:51 2024, in response to Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Nov 8 16:49:07 2024. Here it is if you missed it. I spoke to the reporter for over an hour. |
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| (349695) | |
Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Nov 8 20:02:51 2024, in response to Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Nov 8 16:49:07 2024. Here it is if you missed it. I spoke to the reporter for over an hour. |
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| (349696) | |
Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Nov 8 22:09:39 2024, in response to Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Sep 25 12:49:51 2024. I have no idea why it posted ten times.Sorry about that. The written story has a little more info. https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/brooklyn-bus-network-redesign-proposal/?intcid=CNM-00-10abd1h |
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Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by Snilcher on Fri Nov 8 23:31:33 2024, in response to Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Nov 8 20:02:51 2024. As I mentioned earlier, this is not just NYC/MTA. Plans all over the nation are proposing bus stop removals. Latest one I posted here is for Washington DC. |
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Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Nov 9 07:54:43 2024, in response to Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by Snilcher on Fri Nov 8 23:31:33 2024. And that’s how you improve transit by making it more inaccessible? |
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Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Nov 12 16:19:20 2024, in response to Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by Snilcher on Fri Nov 8 23:31:33 2024. WMATA is planning to eliminate about 500 stops, which is fewer than what was initially proposed. I don't have a Google Street View image of every single one in my mind, but many of them are located in close proximity to another stop, in which case the stop proposed for elimination is typically at a signalized crosswalk and the other stop is not. There were some exceptions to this that I noticed while reviewing the list, but for the most part, the choices seemed logical. And reducing stops (to a point) will improve bus service. |
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Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Nov 12 16:19:42 2024, in response to Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Nov 9 07:54:43 2024. How does transit in places such as Europe do so well despite the longer distances between stops? |
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| (349703) | |
Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Nov 13 07:02:43 2024, in response to Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Nov 12 16:19:42 2024. I'm not arguing against increased stop-spacing but one thing to note about Europe is that often the coverage within a city is already so excellent that there was minimal walking involved to get to the route itself. So it's easier to get away with longer distances between stops because the odds are greater that you already live/work on or near the route. The non-use of a standard grid often means that buses are twisting and turning throughout the city and with decent route planning they go every which way.The road layout of many American cities (in NY I'm thinking at least once you get to the more suburbanized parts like southern Brooklyn, eastern Queens, Staten Island, etc.) have it such that a bus corridor itself may already be a bit of a walk, so once you finally get to the corridor if you have to walk further to find a stop it lessens the attractiveness of doing it that way in general. But then I think of a route like the S79. This route is packed even though the stops are about as far apart as can be. You certainly can't say it doesn't attract riders. What's key is that it stops in the right places, and perhaps secondarily that it provides for an extra free transfer in certain cases. |
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| (349704) | |
Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Nov 13 07:11:03 2024, in response to Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Nov 12 16:19:20 2024. You're missing the forest by concentrating on the trees.What's the redesign's objective? What should be the rider's objective? How well does the redesign meet these objectives? WMATA's bus service efficiency $/VRM or $/VRH has increased drastically in the last few years. Their objective might be to reduce operating costs. Unless a GTFS schedule for the redesign is available, it's impossible to determine whether any meaningful rider metrics are achieved. One such metric is obviously the distance to the nearest bus stop. However, this metric can be misleading if buses run infrequently, slowly or don't connect to a preferred destination. Also, variation by time of day and day of week need to be considered. Any proposal or its analysis that does not consider these metrics is deficient. |
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Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Nov 13 07:44:53 2024, in response to Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Nov 12 16:19:42 2024. How does transit in places such as Europe do so well despite the longer distances between stops?It's difficult to measure distance between stops for most European transit because their GTFS schedules do not include the optional shape files. I have tried to derive a universal tool for measuring distance to nearest subway/bus/tram stops. I've used the Open Street Map data that supplies building, bus, tram, and subway entrance locations. I've used Open Street Map's road network map to trace the nearest bus stop walking distance from all the buildings within an area. This depends on Open Street Map's accuracy. This can be problematic because it depends on volunteers for its accuracy. I've also used igraph and osmnx tools to measure the actual walking distance, rather than cartesion distance. The generally accepted criterion for walking distance to subway entrances and bus/tram stops is 800m and 400m, respectively. This is approximately 1/2 and 1/4 mile. It would appear that Washington transit stops are already further away than most major world and US cities. However, this might be due to deficiencies in Open Street Map's bus/tram stop location data. The percentage of buildings that lie within these criteria for Washington DC are: 23% and 56%, respectively. The percentages for buildings in London's 33 boroughs are: 24% (subways); 75% (bus/tram). The percentages for buildings in Paris' 20 arrondissements are: 97% (subways); 95% (bus/tram). If Greater Paris is considered, the percentages are: 27% (metro/rer); 81% (bus/tram). Berlin: 16% (subway); 60% (bus/tram). NYC: 21% (subways); 73% (buses). Philadelphia: 11% (subways); 86% (bus/tram). I used the GTFS bus/tram stop locations for SEPTA because the Open Street Map missed a lot of bus/tram stops. The same may be true for some other abovementioned cities. |
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| (349706) | |
Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by Snilcher on Wed Nov 13 09:47:46 2024, in response to Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Nov 13 07:02:43 2024. But then I think of a route like the S79. This route is packed even though the stops are about as far apart as can be. You certainly can't say it doesn't attract riders. What's key is that it stops in the right places, and perhaps secondarily that it provides for an extra free transfer in certain cases.But that's also because there is no competition from the subway. (I don't think the SIRT competes to the same degree.) Without a practical alternative the S79 is the only game in town for a huge stretch of SI. |
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| (349707) | |
Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Nov 13 11:09:15 2024, in response to Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Nov 12 16:19:42 2024. The issue isn’t so much the distance between stops but the total distance needed to walk to the route. That is an issue when there are no parallel routes available like on Northern Blvd in Queens, so increasing the distance between stops is now up to 3/4 mile by making the distance between stops every four or five blocks.I realize that doesn’t really answer your question. Another issue is reliability which I am sure is greater in Europe. Here if you miss a bus by walking an extra block or two, you can wait 20 minutes or more extra even if the headway is every ten minutes. Bus stop distances also must factor in the age of the population in the area. When 20 percent of the riders are elderly or use walkers, the distances should not be far apart. |
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Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Nov 13 11:13:19 2024, in response to Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Nov 13 07:11:03 2024. You are correct. In the Bronx where several hundred stops were eliminated and some routes were changed, the MTA estimated that buses only ran 2 percent faster. And that doesn’t mean that anyone’s trip was faster which should have been the goal. In fact they might be slower. |
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Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Nov 18 09:46:34 2024, in response to Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Nov 13 07:11:03 2024. The WMATA redesign seems to lack an overarching set of goals or objectives. However, this does not apply to stop removals, where the proposals seem to follow a set of principles. One can agree or disagree with whether those are the right principles or whether the stop removal proposals will achieve those goals, but there does seem to be a method to the madness.However, the way BrooklynBus and some others here automatically react to the notion of any stop being removed or proposals being enacted that would create change from the network he personally envisioned in the 1970s is tiresome. BrooklynBus's proposals do not improve transit, as he is unwilling to take steps supported by data that improve overall throughput and reduce reliance upon automobiles (often SOVs) to travel from place to place. I appreciate your data driven analyses, but they aren't the final word either, there's an art to transit planning too. |
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Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Nov 18 12:11:16 2024, in response to Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Nov 18 09:46:34 2024. You are totally wrong about me. I am not opposed to removing any bus stop. In fact when I was Director of Bus Planning, one of the first things I did was remove a bus stop that I knew was not needed. I asked and told no one except DOT. Guess what? Not a single complaint.Why are there so many complaints about the bus stops the MTA wants to remove? Because most are not justified. Only about 5% need removal, not 33%.Why remove bus stops that 90% of the buses always skip anyway? The only gain is additional parking spaces. Why remove heavily used stops with bus shelters? That also makes no sense. I am certainly open to proposals by others as long as they make sense. The problem with most MTA proposals is that they are not designed to improve service, but to save the MTA operating costs. I am willing to accept proposals supported by data.the problem is the MTA hasn’t supplied a shred of data to support their proposals and refuses to engage in any conversations with anyone about their proposal, some of which will destroy the bus system. In my neighborhood, they are proposing to turn a direct 10 minute bus trip into a 45 minute trip involving two buses depriving access to dozens of medical facilities and about ten restaurants, not to mention other institutions, like schools, temples,banks and churches. I created the very successful B1 and B11. The MTA’s creations, the B32,,B8, B67 extension, etc. were all failures that they are now proposing to change. |
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Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon Nov 18 13:37:04 2024, in response to Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Nov 18 12:11:16 2024. The biggest issue I have regarding the stop removals is the keep/remove binary. Why can't the route just have all its stops taken away and then, from the blank slate, put them at the desired spacing? That would be properly consolidating stops, not just telling the unlucky ones to go find a different stop. |
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Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Nov 18 16:33:09 2024, in response to Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon Nov 18 13:37:04 2024. The desired spacing is not the only issue. The real issue is what is the maximum walking distance to the bus? Routes with nearby parallel routes can have farther stops than routes with no nearby parallel routes.I know it’s not buses, but if you look at where the stops were for the Second Avenue L, Third Avenue L, and Lex subway, you will notice with the exception of a few major streets, they tried not to have their stops at the same cross streets. That was because they wanted the maximum walking distance to the train to be minimized. They rightly so weren’t only concerned with how far the stops were from each other. |
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Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon Nov 18 16:44:10 2024, in response to Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Nov 18 16:33:09 2024. That's all the more reason to start from a blank slate, so that nearby parallel routes can work together to minimize the walking distances. Most of the time on the proposals, however, it's just keep or remove. That only works if you plan for a 100% increase in stop-spacing which is usually unnecessary. |
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Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Nov 18 18:20:08 2024, in response to Re: Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign, posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon Nov 18 16:44:10 2024. The MTA is hesitant to place new bus stops because of pushback from residents. Also, driveways and trees also limit where new bus stops can be placed. In one instance the MTA is proposing a new stop where a tree was just planted two years ago. Clearly, they are making proposals without even looking at the areas. Why remove stops right in front of senior centers? The MTA is doing that too. It’s so much easier to just remove every other bus stop which they are doing in many cases. Unfortunately, that doesn’t work well either. |
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