MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot

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MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by GojiMet86 on Mon Apr 23 10:47:53 2018 http://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2018/04/23/mta-bus-overhaul-plan- MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot By Jose Martinez \| April 23, 2018 @6:03 AM Double decker buses, an overhaul of routes, and a new way of paying the fare — they're all part of a massive new plan by the MTA to improve and modernize slumping bus service in the city. Transit Reporter Jose Martinez got an exclusive look at what bus riders can expect and filed the following report. Taking a bus in the city hasn't changed much over the years. Many routes still follow the paths of trolley lines that disappeared decades ago. But that's about to change with the release Monday of a sweeping plan to overhaul MTA bus service. "We want to completely review the way we run buses. To make sure that we get people from A to B quickly, so that buses become an attractive way to travel again," said NYC Transit President Andy Byford. For years, as average bus speeds have slowed, an increasing number of New Yorkers have ditched riding the bus for other ways to get around - including app-based car services like Uber, making the streets even more congested. "If we don't do anything, this city will achieve complete gridlock, it will grind to a halt. So we need to give buses a super efficient way of getting about, a fighting chance of getting through the traffic," Byford said. One of the proposed changes - using double-decker buses to boost capacity. The MTA will test double-deckers on an express route linking Staten Island and Manhattan, and try out an app that will allow express bus riders to check for seat availability on approaching buses. "Not only will they know when their bus is coming, they will know if there is a seat available for them," said NYC Transit Senior Vice President Darryl Irick. To speed service, the plan also calls for giving all bus riders, by 2020, the opportunity to pay the fare before boarding - and to board at any door, a system now used only on Select Bus Service lines. "Paying here just makes it easier for everyone to get on instead of having everyone swipe," said one bus rider. The plan will remap some bus routes and expand off-peak service, bus-only traffic lanes and routes that give buses priority at signals. "These are the kinds of changes that will make buses faster and more reliable, and really get them to meet the needs of New York in 2018," said Transit Center Deputy Executive Director Tabitha Decker. Advocates are praising the plan as ambitious unlike previous piecemeal efforts. But there's no pricetag on it yet. "Major progress starts with leadership and strong goals and that's what we're seeing here. I think it's a reason to get pretty excited about what's to come," Decker added. Byford's push to overhaul the bus network is a warmup to next month when he plans to release a report on reshaping all of New York City Transit, including subway, bus and para-transit service.
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by Dan* on Mon Apr 23 11:12:47 2018, in response to MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by GojiMet86 on Mon Apr 23 10:47:53 2018.* Can that double-decker express bus clear the SIR overpasses at Richmond Avenue and at Tysens Lane for example?
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by Allan* on Mon Apr 23 11:39:46 2018, in response to MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by GojiMet86 on Mon Apr 23 10:47:53 2018.* Double-deckers to increase capacity is interesting but isn't what the Artics were intended to do? They can increase capacity all they want but until they can figure a way to decrease car/truck traffic along many routes all their efforts won't get them very far. Try taking a bus on Broadway in lower Manhattan - you can walk faster. Congestion pricing won't improve anything as taxis/Uber/Lyft etc. will simply add the cost to the fare.
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by pragmatist* on Mon Apr 23 12:18:59 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by Allan on Mon Apr 23 11:39:46 2018.* How many routes into Manhattan have the vertical clearance to run a double decker coach? Lincoln Tunnel and GW I think, not sure where else....
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Mon Apr 23 12:48:36 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by pragmatist on Mon Apr 23 12:18:59 2018.* The Lincoln Tunnel regularly sees double deck coaches, and I can’t imagine the Battery Tunnel is any lower. I don’t know about Holland or Midtown.
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by Pragmatist* on Mon Apr 23 13:16:25 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 23 12:48:36 2018.* The official listing is almost a foot lower, that was generated my question. What routes does Megabus run in out of Manhattan?
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by Stephen Bauman* on Mon Apr 23 14:09:53 2018, in response to MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by GojiMet86 on Mon Apr 23 10:47:53 2018.* The basic problem with double deckers is increased dwell time. This is especially true for one-man operation.
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by randyo* on Mon Apr 23 14:53:18 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Apr 23 14:09:53 2018.* Although I was very young when the FACCO double deckers were removed from service, I never really noticed any difference in dwell time between the double and single deckers. In any case, I can’t see any difference in dwell time between a double decker and an artic. The only problem I can foresee is that the hight of the overhead traffic signals in the city will probably have to be adjusted to clear the double deckers, a problem that didn't exist in the old FACCO days.
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by Stephen Bauman* on Mon Apr 23 16:22:56 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by randyo on Mon Apr 23 14:53:18 2018.* I can’t see any difference in dwell time between a double decker and an artic. More passengers per bus ==> more passengers entering/exiting per stop. Double deckers had 2 doors per bus; artics now have 3. The double deckers are initially scheduled for express bus service. This should minimize dwell time problems.
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by B53RICH* on Mon Apr 23 17:11:51 2018, in response to MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by GojiMet86 on Mon Apr 23 10:47:53 2018.* The last time double-deckers ran on NYC routes: MaBSTOA Leyland demonstrator #D3 working route M5 at Fifth Avenue & West 41st Street. Photograph taken April 15, 1978 by Doug Grotjahn; collection of Joe Testagrose.
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by kcram3500* on Mon Apr 23 17:19:05 2018, in response to MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by GojiMet86 on Mon Apr 23 10:47:53 2018.* The Alexander Dennis Enviro500 for North America (shown in the rendering) is 13' 6" - it will not fit in any Manhattan-bound tunnel. The Van Hool TD925 used by MegaBus and the newer TDX are 13' 1.0625" and automatically lower to 13' based on GPS to get through the Lincoln Tunnel. If they're getting the Dennis, the only way it's getting to Manhattan from SI is the Verrazano, BQE, and one of the lower Manhattan bridges.
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by Charles G* on Mon Apr 23 18:39:36 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by B53RICH on Mon Apr 23 17:11:51 2018.* Is the caption wrong on that photo? That looks like Broadway just north of Columbus Circle and not Fifth Avenue and West 41st (an intersection that does not exist).
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by TransitChuckG* on Mon Apr 23 18:42:03 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by kcram3500 on Mon Apr 23 17:19:05 2018.* 13' 1.0625" .0625 is beautiful to my eyes. I was in the paper machine industry, we had bearing fits like 4.6780/4.679. My good old days as a mechanical draftsman/designer.
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by kcram3500* on Mon Apr 23 19:38:46 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by TransitChuckG on Mon Apr 23 18:42:03 2018.* Only because 1-1/16" can be misinterpreted... :)
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by B53RICH* on Mon Apr 23 20:17:23 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by Charles G on Mon Apr 23 18:39:36 2018.* Good observation, you are correct. I had cut and pasted from another website. 5 Ave. and W 41 St. is actually the Library. The actual location is Broadway and W 60 St.
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by checkmatechamp13* on Mon Apr 23 20:20:47 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by pragmatist on Mon Apr 23 12:18:59 2018.* From what I remember, the last time, they did it on the X30 and BxM2. (There was a third route too, but I can't remember offhand). As for the advantage of double-decker vs. articulated bus on express routes, it might be a little easier to maneuver it on the highway since it's shorter (but on the other hand, it's also more top-heavy).
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by gold_12th* on Mon Apr 23 21:05:36 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by kcram3500 on Mon Apr 23 17:19:05 2018.* I believe this demo is using the the new super-low height version of 12 foot and 10 inches
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by kcram3500* on Mon Apr 23 21:35:33 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by gold_12th on Mon Apr 23 21:05:36 2018.* Which means the traditional aisle height of 78-80 inches will be reduced to about 72 on both floors. That'll work... unless you're at least 5'10" and actually wear shoes - maybe less for women who like heels. Instead of those comfortable MCIs and Prevosts, let's put you in a two-level sardine can for your commute, and charge you the higher express fare for the privilege.
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by Terrapin Station* on Mon Apr 23 23:02:51 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by B53RICH on Mon Apr 23 17:11:51 2018.* Double-deckers have run on NYC routes since then: http://www.subchat.com/buschat/readflat.asp?Id=118115&p=1#118148
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by Henry R32 #3730* on Tue Apr 24 07:31:49 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Mon Apr 23 20:20:47 2018.* Less parking space. I rode the double deck buses in Singapore, the system works way better than an artic: the lower level is mostly single seats and a lot of standing room, intended for people taking short trips and people to pre-position themselves when it's time to get off. The upper level is all 2x2 seating for people settling in for a longer trip.
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Tue Apr 24 18:18:01 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Apr 23 23:02:51 2018.* PWN3D!
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by G1Ravage* on Tue Apr 24 18:40:02 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by kcram3500 on Mon Apr 23 21:35:33 2018.* People rarely (if ever) stand on express buses. They normally stop picking up when all seats get filled. If the really tall people have to bend over a bit when boarding or alighting, so be it. They will otherwise be comfortable for the majority of their ride.
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by TerrApin Station* on Wed Apr 25 08:47:41 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Apr 24 18:18:01 2018.* Thanks! 👻
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by italianstallion* on Wed Apr 25 15:52:30 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by G1Ravage on Tue Apr 24 18:40:02 2018.* I've never seen an express stop picking up if all the seats are full. That would be awful, as express buses don't come that often.
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by GojiMet86* on Wed Apr 25 16:25:02 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by italianstallion on Wed Apr 25 15:52:30 2018.* The Alexander Dennis guys told me that standing is allowed on the lower level, but obviously not on the upper level.
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by MainR3664* on Wed Apr 25 18:10:04 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by italianstallion on Wed Apr 25 15:52:30 2018.* I see express buses do that all the time. People cram on- and stand. It's usually completely unnecessary. Usually, the severe overcrowding results from bus bunching- and a quick check of the Bus Time app would show all these standers that there's another bus 2 blocks way- sometimes even closer than that! Yet they crowd on. So 2 57 seat buses will enter the tunnel. one is carrying 72 people. Its follower is carrying 12. By the time the 2 vehicles reach Staten Island, the leader has to have all standers disembark before the first sitter does. Then, standers return, some get seats. When all is said and done, the follower with 12 people gets its passengers home 20 minutes earlier than the people who just couldn't wait 2 minutes more on Broadway or Battery Place. When I do get on that second bus, I get a good laugh. Drivers have explained that they are not allowed to bypass a stop if even 1 more person can get on- even if it would make more sense for the follower to pick them up.
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by checkmatechamp13* on Wed Apr 25 19:51:10 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by MainR3664 on Wed Apr 25 18:10:04 2018.* That's usually the case but not always. I remember one time the 12:20am X17 from 5th Street (which is an extra trip not on the schedule) had 67 people on it after Battery Place and the 12:15am X10 had already passed a couple of minutes earlier so that wasn't an option (the next and last X10 bus was at 1:15am and that's a pretty busy bus on its own anyway)
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by checkmatechamp13* on Wed Apr 25 19:52:59 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Wed Apr 25 19:51:10 2018.* But yes I agree that when there is bunching, dispatchers should allow the lead bus to bypass the remaining stops.
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by boliqua2* on Wed Apr 25 21:36:59 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Mon Apr 23 20:20:47 2018.* I rode the Vanhool hemo on the X17J years ago
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by R36 #9346* on Wed Apr 25 22:44:47 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by Pragmatist on Mon Apr 23 13:16:25 2018.* Since their boarding point is by Javits Center, I would suppose they use the Lincoln.
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by R36 #9346* on Wed Apr 25 23:18:49 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 23 12:48:36 2018.* The clearance at the BBT and QMT is 12'1". The Holland is 12'6". The Lincoln is 13'0". The Alexander Dennis Enviro 500 the MTA will be testing is 12'10" tall.
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by MainR3664* on Wed Apr 25 23:24:37 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Wed Apr 25 19:51:10 2018.* I'm hardly, if ever, o board that late at night. But hearing stories like this, I don't see the SIM4c, which is a merger of the off-peak x10 & x17, working out very well. MAYBR with 7- minute headways. But then I think it will be subject to bunching, with some buses carrying 65+ people, and others 10-20.
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by italianstallion* on Thu Apr 26 10:49:24 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by MainR3664 on Wed Apr 25 18:10:04 2018.* "Drivers have explained that they are not allowed to bypass a stop if even 1 more person can get on." That supports my point.
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by MainR3664* on Thu Apr 26 14:41:55 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by italianstallion on Thu Apr 26 10:49:24 2018.* Yeah. Riding when the express bus when it's packed like that is no fun at all- even if you have a window seat. If you're in an aisle seat, it's even worse. If it really is the last bus of the evening, or even if no more seem to be coming soon, I suppose it's understandable that people will pack on. But when there's another bus closely following, it's infuriating. Almost everyone has a smartphone- yet not many people seem to have the Bus Time App. I bet all those folks who don't have or don't use the Bus Time App burn up their batteries with whatever hot game is out there, though!!
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by randyo* on Thu Apr 26 17:51:43 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by GojiMet86 on Wed Apr 25 16:25:02 2018.* When the original FACCO double deckers ran, AFAIK, the company did not carry standees which allowed it to charge a 10 cent fare instead of a nickel since all passengers were guaranteed a seat.
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by checkmatechamp13* on Fri Apr 27 07:56:20 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Apr 26 14:41:55 2018.* Shoot, I use a flip phone and I'm able to track the buses (I save 511-123) as a contact and memorize the codes for the stops I use frequently). I usually try to let the passengers know that there's an emptier bus in a few minutes (one time a few people got off a jam-packed X17 and when I got off the one behind it, the B/O of the crowded one gave me a wave of thanks)
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by checkmatechamp13* on Fri Apr 27 08:00:48 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Apr 26 14:41:55 2018.* In any case, that's one reason I supported the idea of having most/all off-peak buses terminate Downtown: Less distance/runtime for the buses to bunch (the amount of times I'v seen two X10s bunched together on 30 minute headways is mind-boggling)
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by checkmatechamp13* on Fri Apr 27 08:00:48 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Apr 26 14:41:55 2018.* In any case, that's one reason I supported the idea of having most/all off-peak buses terminate Downtown: Less distance/runtime for the buses to bunch (the amount of times I'v seen two X10s bunched together on 30 minute headways is mind-boggling)
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Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot
Posted by MainR3664* on Sun Apr 29 14:46:52 2018, in response to Re: MTA bus overhaul plan to include double-deckers pilot, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Fri Apr 27 08:00:48 2018.* I suppose the MTA had the same idea. But in the end, they work for (or at least, are supposed to work for) the public- and the public demanded that at least full-length off peak service be preserved. And I can see why. With all the GOs, it can be hard at night or on the weekend to figure out what subway route is going where. For example, if you need to get home to SI from the NYU area, during PM rush hours, you know that you can take the R or W or 6 to the City Hall area and catch the X1, X17A or X11 (you could also REALLY suffer through the X7, x9 or X10B). But at 10:30 PM, you could wait forever for a diverted Q train at 8th Street that might go to City Hall, and...miss the express bus, and wait another 30-40 minutes. Or...you might miss the last bus of the evening. So yes, in the late evening and on weekends, I'm glad there'll be a SIM 1c/3c/4c available in the Village.
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