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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by dkupf on Fri Jun 3 21:20:08 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Hank eisenstein on Fri Jun 3 17:54:45 2011. I have to agree with Hank. Route duplication, except when serving major trip generators is a waste off our fare and tax money that could be better spent on the prevention of elimination of services, restore service eliminated throughout the years, and increase service where needed based on ACTUAL service loads.Sending the S44 via the current S42 looks good on paper, but wouldn't work in the real world. You have to ask yourself: of the total S44/94 riders, how many would see their travel time increase? This is where your argument falls apart. I think that the overwhelming majority of local riders would see their travel time increase by 5-10 minutes. You could claim that these riders could use the S94, with added stops, but what about outside of the weekday-peak peak direction? The off peak and reverse peak is where the overall health of the route is really gauged. I would leave the S42 and S44/94 in Brighton and New Brighton as is. I would leave all the other LOCAL routes AS IS, except the following: * Switch the S44/94 and S46/96 west of Walker St/Morningstar Rd * Extend the S52 from its current southern terminus to Richmond Rd & Seaview Av. * Operate the S54 via the SI Mall, instead of Egbertville and Richmondtown between Rockland Av and Arthur Kill Rd. (This isn't duplication, because the S54 would serve SI's #2 trip generator. Current ridership levels prove that Egbertville and Richmondtown need only one cross-island route, not two.) * Operate the S55 via the Bricktown Shopping Center. (The S74 and S78 have been serving it since April 24.) * Extend the S62/92 via the West Shore Expwy to West Shore Plaza. * Replace the S76/86 south of Mill Rd & Tysens Ln with the S57. * Operate the S79 as limited-stop service only on Hylan Blvd and ONLY during the weekday peaks and Saturdays. (Service levels are not yet high enough weekday middays and Sundays.) Note that the B46 limited-stop service span started the same way. Now, the B46 is so frequent, it has limited-stop service all times except late nights. Could this also happen to the Hylan Blvd corridor? Only time will tell. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Fri Jun 3 21:35:32 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by dkupf on Fri Jun 3 21:20:08 2011. nice constructive post to school hank although partly wrong because i cant make long posts on my phone. Ill respond to it when i get home |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by hank eisenstein on Fri Jun 3 21:42:36 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Osmosis Jones on Fri Jun 3 21:35:32 2011. I guess you have selective eyesight. You missed this part:"I have to agree with Hank. Route duplication, except when serving major trip generators is a waste off our fare and tax money that could be better spent on the prevention of elimination of services, restore service eliminated throughout the years, and increase service where needed based on ACTUAL service loads." |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Fri Jun 3 21:48:00 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by hank eisenstein on Fri Jun 3 21:42:36 2011. lol. The pseudo intellect strikes agaim |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by hank eisenstein on Fri Jun 3 22:06:36 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Osmosis Jones on Fri Jun 3 21:48:00 2011. Actually, that would be basic observation. You're still angry, and I'm still waiting for your reasonable response, instead of the constant insults. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Fri Jun 3 22:10:14 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by hank eisenstein on Fri Jun 3 22:06:36 2011. if thats your idea of basic observation then your advanced observation oughta bring a good laugh |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by hank eisenstein on Fri Jun 3 22:19:08 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Osmosis Jones on Fri Jun 3 22:10:14 2011. Uh-huh. Still waiting. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Sat Jun 4 00:25:25 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by dkupf on Fri Jun 3 21:20:08 2011. Now that I'm home after being entertained all day by Hank's idiocy, I'll respond to the only helpful post worthy of my response ever since I left.I have to agree with Hank. Route duplication, except when serving major trip generators is a waste off our fare and tax money that could be better spent on the prevention of elimination of services, restore service eliminated throughout the years, and increase service where needed based on ACTUAL service loads. Look at the ridership statistics along the corridors where I want to duplicate service, there's more definitely demand for better service along them. Sending the S44 via the current S42 looks good on paper, but wouldn't work in the real world. You have to ask yourself: of the total S44/94 riders, how many would see their travel time increase? This is where your argument falls apart. I think that the overwhelming majority of local riders would see their travel time increase by 5-10 minutes. You could claim that these riders could use the S94, with added stops, but what about outside of the weekday-peak peak direction? The off peak and reverse peak is where the overall health of the route is really gauged. I would leave the S42 and S44/94 in Brighton and New Brighton as is. True. I don't like the S42 because it doesn't really contribute much to the route network in Staten Island and operates too close to the S40, S44, and S52 for my taste, but it's necessary I guess. * Operate the S54 via the SI Mall, instead of Egbertville and Richmondtown between Rockland Av and Arthur Kill Rd. (This isn't duplication, because the S54 would serve SI's #2 trip generator. Current ridership levels prove that Egbertville and Richmondtown need only one cross-island route, not two.) That's not necessary in my scenario, or the MTA's current scenario, with a good chunk of Manor Road being north of the S54's connection with the S61. I wanted to use the S54 as a way to connect more of the North Shore (especially the Todt Hill Houses, which I think has more potential as a ridership source than seen with the current S54) with the huge New Dorp Shopping Area, in addition to giving New Dorp Beach residents better access to the malls along Hylan Boulevard than the S76 currently provides. * Operate the S55 via the Bricktown Shopping Center. (The S74 and S78 have been serving it since April 24.) I don't know much about the S55 or S56 so I'll take your word on that, but I'll add that when I fanned the S55 years ago, I was surprised to see Target workers using it despite how far it is, so there probably is demand. * Extend the S62/92 via the West Shore Expwy to West Shore Plaza. The S62 serves a lot of industrial companies in that, but few workers of those industries use the S62 even during the rush hour, so that could work. That's a better way to link Travis to West Shore Plaza than my S58 idea. * Replace the S76/86 south of Mill Rd & Tysens Ln with the S57. I wanted to split the S76's current job in New Dorp with the S54 and S57 to better connect its service area with the malls on Hylan Boulevard. |
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Leave it alone Hank |
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Posted by JAzumah on Sat Jun 4 00:30:30 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Hank eisenstein on Fri Jun 3 17:26:33 2011. You have been here a long time.You owe no one any explanations on anything. Whether I have agreed with your positions or not, you have always made your points in a thoughtful manner. I don't feel you have anything else to prove to anyone. You know your stuff. There is no need to defend yourself. Your posts stand for themselves. Just leave it alone. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Sat Jun 4 00:38:11 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Fri Jun 3 14:19:38 2011. It covers a lot more areas & it wouldn't hurt to have two bus lines running on the same street (S73 & S74 on richmond road & S77/S78 on Hylan Blvd for example) as long as the scheduling works. If there's better coverage and less transferring involved then more people would ride the buses.Exactly. The purpose of the S73 is to give Richmondtown a local bus, replace the S57 along Amboy Road (in my scenario), give Stapleton and the Richmond Road corridor a bus to the mall, and to give Richmond Road riders a comfortable, faster, and more reliable ride since the S74 would no longer serve Broad Street, which often packs the S74 and slows it down. The purpose of the S77 isn't as meaningful. It's to give Tompkins Avenue a faster ride to the ferry since my fantasy S78 would go up the faster Bay Street, and to encourage bus ridership along Giffords Lane by giving them a bus to the Ferry (although few would probably take it to the ferry given its circuitous nature), New Dorp Shopping Area, Greenridge Shopping Area, Eltingville Transit Center, and the Mall. I noticed that not a lot of people along Giffords Lane use the S54, and thought that the fact that it practically goes nowhere would be the reason for that. The S44/S94 would do better if it ended at West Shore Plaza and have the S40/S90 terminate at Gothaels Rd instead with the S48. If you want the SI Mall you would have either Castleton Avenue or Richmond Terrace which is better because the SI Mall needs more & faster access from all over the Island instead of a couple of routes & having to transfer. Thanks for the suggestion. I wanted to send the S40 to West Shore Plaza to encourage Teleport workers to ride the bus by giving them a faster ride to the ferry, but that ideal might be a stretch. The S44 could really go anywhere, but I just chose Goethals Homes because I thought that people in the area around the Mariners Harbor Houses would like a bus to the movie theater area the most. |
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Listen to him boy |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Sat Jun 4 00:39:58 2011, in response to Leave it alone Hank, posted by JAzumah on Sat Jun 4 00:30:30 2011. Although I disagree with some of his points, you can't handle this. |
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Re: Leave it alone Hank |
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Posted by hank eisenstein on Sat Jun 4 03:54:37 2011, in response to Leave it alone Hank, posted by JAzumah on Sat Jun 4 00:30:30 2011. Thanks, I appreciate it. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by hank eisenstein on Sat Jun 4 04:54:44 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Osmosis Jones on Sat Jun 4 00:38:11 2011. There's no point to a bus along Giffords Lane (or Nelson Ave) going to the Ferry. Both roads TOGETHER are slightly over 1.5 miles and have direct service to the Ferry at each end of them. (The 74 at the north end of Giffords, the SIR at the south end of Giffords/north end of Nelson, and the 78 (or 79) at the south end of Nelson)All of these options give a easy ride to a connection to the mall (or a direct ride, in the case of the 79), and the SIR is significantly faster than either the 74 or the 78 to the Ferry. (~24 minutes from Great Kills to St. George on the local train, vs. ~40 minutes for the 74 at 8am, and ~45 minutes for the 78 at 8am) There wouldn't be much of a time savings via either corridor with a limited to/from the Ferry vs the SIR. Tompkins Ave is already served by two routes, the 78 and the 52, with the 78 being the more direct route to the ferry (at least, north of Hylan Blvd) SI Local bus routes are set up to serve the ferry, or feed the SIR, with the exception of the 89, 53, and 93 which feed the SIR and connect Brooklyn or New Jersey. It's simply not financially sensible or practical to connect every destination pair directly with a one-seat ride. I'd rather have the money that would be required to duplicate existing services or give one-seat rides between every shopping center and the ferry to restore overnight service along Richmond Ave, weekend service along the routes that were recently cut, establish a limited version of the 79, and decrease headways on various routes, including service every 15 minutes on the SIR using two-car trains on the intervals that don't meet the ferry. Service every 15-20 minutes on many routes (particularly on weekends) instead of every 30-60 (the 51 runs at a 30 minute headway on weekends, with every other bus (hourly!) serving Ft. Wadsworth or School Rd) will go a lot farther toward increasing ridership than establishing many of your proposed routes. |
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Re: Listen to him boy |
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Posted by hank eisenstein on Sat Jun 4 04:56:04 2011, in response to Listen to him boy, posted by Osmosis Jones on Sat Jun 4 00:39:58 2011. Who are you calling 'boy'? Grow up and out of that junior high school mentality, will you? |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Sat Jun 4 05:57:14 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by hank eisenstein on Sat Jun 4 04:54:44 2011. You see the difference in that post and the post you made before? Criticism is useless when not paired with suggestions.There's no point to a bus along Giffords Lane (or Nelson Ave) going to the Ferry. Both roads TOGETHER are slightly over 1.5 miles and have direct service to the Ferry at each end of them. (The 74 at the north end of Giffords, the SIR at the south end of Giffords/north end of Nelson, and the 78 (or 79) at the south end of Nelson) All of these options give a easy ride to a connection to the mall (or a direct ride, in the case of the 79), and the SIR is significantly faster than either the 74 or the 78 to the Ferry. (~24 minutes from Great Kills to St. George on the local train, vs. ~40 minutes for the 74 at 8am, and ~45 minutes for the 78 at 8am) There wouldn't be much of a time savings via either corridor with a limited to/from the Ferry vs the SIR. I understand your points, but what I'm trying to say is that I'm not relying on a Giffords Lane-Ferry ridership base to provide a foundation for my S77 route. It's a combination of the Tompkins Avenue-Ferry (my S78 would go up the faster Bay Street way to ease operations on one of the city's longest local routes), New Dorp Shopping Area-Giffords Lane (relief the S79 a bit), SI Mall-Giffords Lane, Greenridge Shopping Area-Giffords Lane, and to a lesser extent Hylan Boulevard-Ferry ridership targets I'm aiming at. I see you refuting by saying the S54 is fine in meeting the area's demands, but it really isn't and you can see it just by riding on it through the area. I came up with this idea because the X7 and X8 seem to do well on Giffords Lane, and I couldn't see why a local route that meets demand couldn't also attract as much ridership as they do. Tompkins Ave is already served by two routes, the 78 and the 52, with the 78 being the more direct route to the ferry (at least, north of Hylan Blvd) In my scenario it would be served by the S52 and S77. I don't see why Tompkins Avenue has 2 routes through Rosebank because it doesn't seem to draw many passengers when I ride through it, but I just gave it the benefit of the doubt being that it has 24/7 service & is served by 2 routes most of the day. SI Local bus routes are set up to serve the ferry, or feed the SIR, with the exception of the 89, 53, and 93 which feed the SIR and connect Brooklyn or New Jersey. It's simply not financially sensible or practical to connect every destination pair directly with a one-seat ride. My plan was really more about covering more of the island, and having those newly covered areas served with routes that can attract potential riders right away, in addition to relieving already overcrowded routes. I don't know why you're so hellbent on keeping a route system the same way it has been for the past 30 (or even more) years in an area like Staten Island that is growing by the day. There's a bigger picture behind my ideas than what you're trying to portray, with the exception of the entire S58 and St. George part of the S44, which were both poor ideas I'll admit. I'd rather have the money that would be required to duplicate existing services or give one-seat rides between every shopping center and the ferry to restore overnight service along Richmond Ave, weekend service along the routes that were recently cut, establish a limited version of the 79, and decrease headways on various routes, including service every 15 minutes on the SIR using two-car trains on the intervals that don't meet the ferry. Service every 15-20 minutes on many routes (particularly on weekends) instead of every 30-60 (the 51 runs at a 30 minute headway on weekends, with every other bus (hourly!) serving Ft. Wadsworth or School Rd) will go a lot farther toward increasing ridership than establishing many of your proposed routes. I don't know why you keep on saying duplicate, only my S73, S77, and S93 (which purpose is to give a faster ride to Brooklyn from the mall BTW, there's no reason why people should have to take a grand tour of Staten Island before getting to the mall) ideas would really be considered redundant, and only my S77 could truly be considered a duplicate route based on its purpose. Anyways, you're right in that service increases can bring more ridership to a transit system, history has proven that increasing service isn't always as significant as providing the service in the first place. The S40 is a popular route despite the nearby S46 having shorter headways (I was told before by another member here that the S40 had 15 minute headways before but buses were emptier), the M60 was a popular route even when it began despite had poor headways, and so on. The point of a transit system is partly to serve as many people possible, and although you can't ever be sure that either way would attract more ridership, I'd say that expanding a system's service area would be the safer way over its service frequencies. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by hank eisenstein on Sat Jun 4 07:03:08 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Osmosis Jones on Sat Jun 4 05:57:14 2011. I don't have to come up with alternate suggestions to refute your arguments; the reasonable refutation is enough.Duplicate and redundant are nearly synonymous; one means copy, the other repetitious. A lot of your fantasy routes aren't necessary; increasing service frequency on existing routes will accomplish the same thing. The 93 is just as much a grand tour of Staten Island as the 79, only on single lane roads through the north shore, instead of the multi-lane Hylan Blvd along the south and east. The 79 is scheduled for ~60 minutes from Bay Ridge to the mall @ 8am; the 93 is scheduled for ~34 minutes from Bay Ridge to CSI @ 8am. Given the traffic and the heavy loads destined for CSI, the trip via the 93 will probably take an additional 20 minutes, which isn't enough of a time savings to make someone choose one route over the other. You don't understand why Tompkins Ave has two routes serving it, but want to provide multiple routes on other roads that also don't need them. Staten Island is more suburban than urban; the level of service that works in Brooklyn or Queens isn't going to work, or be necessary, on Staten Island. The north shore (the area generally above Victory Blvd and the Staten Island Expressway is well served, and also the area that has more bus riders; less because the service is there and more because most of that area is at or below the average income for Staten Island. This area isn't growing. On the south shore, the income is higher, and transit service is much less of a necessity. This area is growing, but it's not gaining people who will use transit as an alternative to their own cars. Even if the service were available, except for getting to/from their daily jobs, these are not people who will use public transit if they don't want to. You're talking about families of four with four cars, not because they're a necessity, but because they WANT them; where a 17-year-old gets a brand-new Acura or Lexus for their birthday. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by LRG5784 on Sat Jun 4 08:10:01 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by dkupf on Fri Jun 3 21:20:08 2011. You and I are on the same page when it comes to the S79. I, for starters, do not think +SBS is needed in the S79, but rather weekday rush hour and all day weekend service as well. While you do say that the S79 should only have Saturday Limited service and not yet Sunday, I won't object to that as yet as I have never really used the S79 on a Sunday to see how ridership is. But if the S79 gets rush hour limited service, it should replace S79 Local service, whereas the S59 and S78 replace it. On weekends the S79 Local and Limited can run in tandem. A limited S79 would definitely be much cheaper than an SBS S79. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by hank eisenstein on Sat Jun 4 08:12:45 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by LRG5784 on Sat Jun 4 08:10:01 2011. Hows the ridership on the 79? I can give you a hint. It runs more frequently on Saturday and Sunday than it does outside the peak on weekdays. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by LRG5784 on Sat Jun 4 08:55:33 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by hank eisenstein on Sat Jun 4 08:12:45 2011. And that's exactly why I stated midday S79 limited service would not be needed. Hell it's bad enough they reduced midday service to 20 minutes back in April, for what it's worth. But that alone states midday limited service would not be warranted. |
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Re: Leave it alone Hank |
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Posted by Railman718 on Sat Jun 4 09:38:20 2011, in response to Leave it alone Hank, posted by JAzumah on Sat Jun 4 00:30:30 2011. I agree with that Hank its just a message board no need to get worked up over it. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Jun 4 13:02:35 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by dkupf on Fri Jun 3 21:20:08 2011. Sending the S62 to the West Shore Plaza seems like a good idea. But I still think that there should be some service along the West Shore Expressway, connecting the North and South Shores.I also think the S56 would be a better candidate the send to Bricktowne because it would offer a more direct route. Like I said, the S44 has a longer, more delay-prone route, so it shouldn't be put on Castleton Avenue. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Jun 4 13:04:49 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Osmosis Jones on Sat Jun 4 00:25:25 2011. On most of the corridors where you want duplicate service, the current service is fine. There is no need for all of that service along Richmond Avenue or Richmond Road: There is a decent number of demand, but the current service serves that demand just fine. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by dkupf on Sat Jun 4 15:08:14 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Osmosis Jones on Sat Jun 4 00:25:25 2011. In my scenario, S57 riders would now have two locations to transfer to a bus that goes to the SI Mall: Hylan Blvd between Tysens Ln and Guyon Av, for the S79, and now Rockland Av & Brielle Av, for the S54.And, SIR riders along Mill Rd would no longer have to go through New Dorp Ln, and waste 15 minutes of their commute would increase ridership and revenue in Oakwood Hts area by 30%, something the S57 desperately needs. I know for a fact that the majority of the people who live at the Todt Hill Houses are a very affluent population; they don't want local bus service. They, however, have been demanding an express bus route for a while in order to conveniently travel to Manhattan and return. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Jun 4 15:20:25 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by hank eisenstein on Sat Jun 4 07:03:08 2011. Generally, in urban areas, the idea is to have the system as grid-like as possible: You have a bunch of east-west routes and north-south routes, and you run them as frequently as possible, so transferring is relatively easy.A system trying to serve every single area with a one-seat ride isn't going to work anywhere. Either the system has ridership that is too low to support it, or the system has high enough ridership to support the services, but it would make the system too complex. I do disagree with your statements about the North and South Shores. The North Shore has seen a decent amount of growth, and transit-wise, a lot of that growth is in transit-dependent people. Even on the South Shore, a lot of the growth has been in townhouses and things like that. While most of those people do have a car, they have fewer cars than the people on the South Shore have traditionally had: Meaning that the family has a car, but when two members need to travel at the same time, one of the people will have to use transit. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Jun 4 15:23:59 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by dkupf on Sat Jun 4 15:08:14 2011. I wouldn't consider the residents of the Todt Hill Houses "affluent", since you need to meet certain income and asset requirements to live in public housing. They might be wealthier than people from other public housing developments, but they are far from "affluent".As far as having express bus service goes, they already have the X10: One of only two routes that has Sunday service. They might use the express bus more than people from, say West Brighton, but I still see a lot of people from the Todt Hill Houses walking down to Victory Blvd and taking a bus to St. George. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Jun 4 15:45:47 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Osmosis Jones on Sat Jun 4 05:57:14 2011. The X7/X8 don't do well because they connect Giffords Lane to shopping districts: They do well because they go to Manhattan, where driving is hard and expensive.If you really want to connect Giffords Lane to the Greenridge and New Dorp shopping districts, a better idea would be the following: Make most S79 buses into limited-stop-only buses Use the faster travel times as a chance to increase service using the same amount of money (Plus, the faster service should attract some increased ridership). Use the extra revenue and extra runs squeezed out of the S79 to send 2 buses per hour via Great Kills (they would travel all-local) That way, you connect Giffords Lane to some shopping districts, as well as connect it to Brooklyn, which is something the SIR doesn't do. Even better, it can be done at a very low cost. As far as a new service attracting instant ridership, that isn't always the case. There has to be a pent-up demand: The M60 connected a series of dense residential neighborhood with a major destination, helping not only people in Harlem, but people from The Bronx who previously had to use circuitous routes to reach LaGuardia Airport. Let's use the S89 as an example. Ridership took a few months to grow to its current levels, but even at its current ridership levels, there are still a bunch of buses that carry a handful of passengers. You can try to cut back on costs by cutting the service to 8th Street, and you can try to reduce the service a bit, but the point is that this route is still struggling. As far as trying to keep the system the same, although Staten Island is growing, there are some aspects that haven't really changed. The fact remains that any route that doesn't provide service to St. George or Bay Ridge will perform poorly. As far as the point of transit being to serve as many people as possible, that is partially true. You have to serve as many people as possible while being efficient with your resources. If you're going to try to run a bus to an area where it only serves a few people (and just because there are people living there doesn't necessarily mean that they will use transit), that isn't being efficient. Neither is providing excess service on any corridor (such as the Hylan Blvd, Richmond Road, and parts of Richmond Avenue, and Bay Street as in your proposals) |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Jun 4 15:53:06 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Osmosis Jones on Sat Jun 4 00:38:11 2011. One problem is that the scheduling might be very hard, as the S73/S74 and S77/S78 have to be coordinated with the ferry, meaning that you will see a lot of buses scheduled to bunch up.As far as the S74 and S78 being routed to serve less of Stapleton/Park Hill, you have to consider that those areas are where most of the ridership comes from, partially because the people are more transit-dependant and partially because, south of the SIE, those routes parallel the SIR more. Therefore, routing these routes away from these areas would result in routes that perform very poorly. For example, the S74 can sometimes get pretty crowded between Tompkinsville and Park Hill, but that distance is fairly short. In addition, you don't see a whole lot of people taking the S78 to St. george from the southern part of Hylan Blvd because the SIR is much faster. As far as people in Mariners' Harbor using transit to get to the movie theater, there really isn't that much demand. If you live in Mariners' Harbor, there is no point in waiting for a bus and paying $2.25 when you could just walk there. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Jun 4 15:57:51 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by hank eisenstein on Sat Jun 4 04:54:44 2011. The thing that I've noticed is that any route that doesn't serve St. George or Bay Ridge will perform very poorly. It doesn't matter if it serves Port Richmond, the SI Mall, or any other neighborhood.That's why I gave my S79 proposal: People aren't going to be willing to use a bus to reach the SIR if the bus route runs infrequently, but the problem is that ridership in that area can't support a high-frequency route. Therefore, the solution is to try to connect that area with Bay Ridge (as well as the SI Mall) by sending S79s to Great Kills every 30 minutes. I do agree that a lot of those new routes are unnecessary, and the money would be better spent on improving service on high-ridership routes (the S48, S53, S79, and to an extent the S46) |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Sat Jun 4 17:23:54 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Hank Eisenstein on Fri Jun 3 16:34:39 2011. +1 |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by JAzumah on Sat Jun 4 18:34:56 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Jun 4 15:23:59 2011. Todt Hill is perhaps the single largest concentration of very wealthy people on Staten Island. Staten Island Academy is up there and is surrounded by very large houses. It is certainly possible that the project complex is located geographically within Todt Hill, but that building reflects neither the property nor population stock of the area. Todt Hill is most similar to Riverdale & Fieldston in the Bronx. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by JAzumah on Sat Jun 4 19:02:38 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Jun 4 15:20:25 2011. The North Shore has not grown very much. The development pressure is a lot less north of the SIE than it is on the south side. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Sat Jun 4 23:17:58 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by hank eisenstein on Sat Jun 4 07:03:08 2011. I don't have to come up with alternate suggestions to refute your arguments; the reasonable refutation is enough.No it isn't if it's not constructive. Duplicate and redundant are nearly synonymous; one means copy, the other repetitious. A lot of your fantasy routes aren't necessary; increasing service frequency on existing routes will accomplish the same thing. Huh? I never said that they weren't. Maybe some of them aren't necessary, but why just increase frequencies when the same can be done in addition to serving new areas? The 93 is just as much a grand tour of Staten Island as the 79, only on single lane roads through the north shore, instead of the multi-lane Hylan Blvd along the south and east. The 79 is scheduled for ~60 minutes from Bay Ridge to the mall @ 8am; the 93 is scheduled for ~34 minutes from Bay Ridge to CSI @ 8am. Given the traffic and the heavy loads destined for CSI, the trip via the 93 will probably take an additional 20 minutes, which isn't enough of a time savings to make someone choose one route over the other. Once again, huh? Victory Boulevard is the only single lane road the S93 runs on in Staten Island, and I believe even then it's only in sections. The new S93 will be geared towards wanting a faster ride to the mall, and since most people will be headed towards the mall during the afternoon, it's better to compare the trip times then. The S79 takes around 80 minutes to go to the mall on a weekday afternoon, while the S93 takes around 35 minutes to go to CSI, 55 minutes (at most) blows 80 minutes out of the water. Don't even get me started on the probable savings during the weekend (when most people are headed to the mall) when there's less traffic on Narrows Road. You don't understand why Tompkins Ave has two routes serving it, but want to provide multiple routes on other roads that also don't need them. The Tompkins Avenue "corridor" doesn't see nearly as much riders as the Hylan Boulevard corridor, the busiest on the island, does though. The S74 and S76 along Richmond Road combined have almost as much ridership as the S61, S62, and S66 along Victory Boulevard combined, but if you feel that a 3rd Hylan Boulevard and Richmond Road route would be overkill, then what do you think about a S79 branch up Giffords Lane replacing my S77, and replacing the northern part of the S76 with my S73, and the southern part of the S76 replaced with the S54/S57? Staten Island is more suburban than urban; the level of service that works in Brooklyn or Queens isn't going to work, or be necessary, on Staten Island. The north shore (the area generally above Victory Blvd and the Staten Island Expressway is well served, and also the area that has more bus riders; less because the service is there and more because most of that area is at or below the average income for Staten Island. This area isn't growing. I'm not the one looking to increase service frequencies to match those in Queens and Brooklyn, you were, remember? I'm just trying to expand the service area, but I understand your point in that the North Shore isn't growing. On the south shore, the income is higher, and transit service is much less of a necessity. This area is growing, but it's not gaining people who will use transit as an alternative to their own cars. Even if the service were available, except for getting to/from their daily jobs, these are not people who will use public transit if they don't want to. You're talking about families of four with four cars, not because they're a necessity, but because they WANT them; where a 17-year-old gets a brand-new Acura or Lexus for their birthday. I know, which is why I didn't really mess with the South Shore besides extending the S89 down there and rerouting the S74 to serve the town homes on Arden Avenue (which I believe will bring some ridership to the S74). |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Sat Jun 4 23:23:56 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Jun 4 13:04:49 2011. I'm not looking the duplicate service on Richmond Avenue, the S93 extension isn't meant for Richmond Avenue riders. I also suggested replacing the S76 with the S54, S57, or my S73 instead of running the S73, S74, and S76 all on Richmond Road. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Sat Jun 4 23:27:24 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by dkupf on Sat Jun 4 15:08:14 2011. In my scenario, S57 riders would now have two locations to transfer to a bus that goes to the SI Mall: Hylan Blvd between Tysens Ln and Guyon Av, for the S79, and now Rockland Av & Brielle Av, for the S54.And, SIR riders along Mill Rd would no longer have to go through New Dorp Ln, and waste 15 minutes of their commute would increase ridership and revenue in Oakwood Hts area by 30%, something the S57 desperately needs. I'm not sure if such a service would attract many people through considering where it would go. My idea would connect them with the SIR in addition to the New Dorp Shopping Area. I know for a fact that the majority of the people who live at the Todt Hill Houses are a very affluent population; they don't want local bus service. They, however, have been demanding an express bus route for a while in order to conveniently travel to Manhattan and return. The Todt Hill Houses are far from your average NYCHA development, but they are still far from affluent, and you can often see people walking up Manor Road to catch the Victory Boulevard buses to the ferry, I still think that the S61 should serve them as described in the original post. The X10 serves the houses 7 days a week. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Hank eisenstein on Sat Jun 4 23:29:11 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Osmosis Jones on Sat Jun 4 23:17:58 2011. Your statements about weekend traffic on the SIE and it's service roads shows you don't know enough about Staten Island to be planning anything. Traffic on the SIE, VZ, and related access roads can be just as horrid on weekends as it is during the peak Additionally, people aren't going to the mall from Brooklyn on weekday afternoons. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Sat Jun 4 23:50:14 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Jun 4 15:45:47 2011. The X7/X8 don't do well because they connect Giffords Lane to shopping districts: They do well because they go to Manhattan, where driving is hard and expensive.If you really want to connect Giffords Lane to the Greenridge and New Dorp shopping districts, a better idea would be the following: Make most S79 buses into limited-stop-only buses Use the faster travel times as a chance to increase service using the same amount of money (Plus, the faster service should attract some increased ridership). Use the extra revenue and extra runs squeezed out of the S79 to send 2 buses per hour via Great Kills (they would travel all-local) That way, you connect Giffords Lane to some shopping districts, as well as connect it to Brooklyn, which is something the SIR doesn't do. Even better, it can be done at a very low cost. That was my first idea, to have a branch of the S79, but I came up with the S77 instead after seeing how many people use the S79 around the Eltingville SIR station area, and seeing that it was an opportunity to make the S78 a faster, more reliable route by sending that up Bay Street, but I'll admit that the original S79 idea is probably better in the end. As far as a new service attracting instant ridership, that isn't always the case. There has to be a pent-up demand: The M60 connected a series of dense residential neighborhood with a major destination, helping not only people in Harlem, but people from The Bronx who previously had to use circuitous routes to reach LaGuardia Airport. Let's use the S89 as an example. Ridership took a few months to grow to its current levels, but even at its current ridership levels, there are still a bunch of buses that carry a handful of passengers. You can try to cut back on costs by cutting the service to 8th Street, and you can try to reduce the service a bit, but the point is that this route is still struggling. That's true. I'll admit that I'm not sure if Richmondtown (which would be served by my new S73 SI Mall-St. George via Richmond Road route) has the demand for a local service, or if SI Hospital South Employees really want a bus to the SIR (which would be accomplished by my S71 route). As far as trying to keep the system the same, although Staten Island is growing, there are some aspects that haven't really changed. The fact remains that any route that doesn't provide service to St. George or Bay Ridge will perform poorly. That's not exactly true as the S59 holds its own ridership-wise (although it's still a black hole operationally), but I understand your point. As far as the point of transit being to serve as many people as possible, that is partially true. You have to serve as many people as possible while being efficient with your resources. If you're going to try to run a bus to an area where it only serves a few people (and just because there are people living there doesn't necessarily mean that they will use transit), that isn't being efficient. Neither is providing excess service on any corridor (such as the Hylan Blvd, Richmond Road, and parts of Richmond Avenue, and Bay Street as in your proposals) There's no way Bay Street can be overserved more than it already it is, with the S51, S76 and SIR, but I understand that point too. I was trying to make my plans efficient by connecting the new areas served with destinations I thought people in those areas were interested in going. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Sat Jun 4 23:52:44 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Jun 4 15:53:06 2011. One problem is that the scheduling might be very hard, as the S73/S74 and S77/S78 have to be coordinated with the ferry, meaning that you will see a lot of buses scheduled to bunch up.As far as the S74 and S78 being routed to serve less of Stapleton/Park Hill, you have to consider that those areas are where most of the ridership comes from, partially because the people are more transit-dependant and partially because, south of the SIE, those routes parallel the SIR more. Therefore, routing these routes away from these areas would result in routes that perform very poorly. For example, the S74 can sometimes get pretty crowded between Tompkinsville and Park Hill, but that distance is fairly short. In addition, you don't see a whole lot of people taking the S78 to St. george from the southern part of Hylan Blvd because the SIR is much faster. True, I think the turnover in the Stapleton area is less noticeable on the S78 though. I don't think St. Pauls Avenue needs a bus, but like the S77 I just gave it the benefit of the doubt. As far as people in Mariners' Harbor using transit to get to the movie theater, there really isn't that much demand. If you live in Mariners' Harbor, there is no point in waiting for a bus and paying $2.25 when you could just walk there. Really? I had no idea it was that close. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Sat Jun 4 23:55:54 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Hank eisenstein on Sat Jun 4 23:29:11 2011. Your statements about weekend traffic on the SIE and it's service roads shows you don't know enough about Staten Island to be planning anything.There you go again talking out of your ass about what I know when you know nothing about me, what did I tell you about that? Traffic on the SIE, VZ, and related access roads can be just as horrid on weekends as it is during the peak Additionally, people aren't going to the mall from Brooklyn on weekday afternoons. A simple search on Google Maps Traffic will prove that the first part of this quote is wrong although of course I wouldn't need to look on Google because I already knew. And I used weekday afternoons because it's closer to Weekend afternoons than weekday mornings are. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by JAzumah on Sun Jun 5 00:17:40 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Osmosis Jones on Sat Jun 4 23:55:54 2011. On Sunday afternoons, the Staten Island Expressway is a disaster area. It is not uncommon to see traffic backed up all the way across the Goethals Bridge and spilling onto the Turnpike for almost 1/2 mile. Even some Saturday afternoons in the 1pm-5pm window get destroyed in the eastbound direction. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Sun Jun 5 00:24:11 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by JAzumah on Sun Jun 5 00:17:40 2011. Here's a Google Map on how traffic along the Staten Island Expressway flows during a typical Sunday afternoon. As you can see, the only section my proposed S93 would travel on that doesn't flow smoothly is over the Verrazano, which the S79 also travels over. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Hank eisenstein on Sun Jun 5 07:23:17 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Osmosis Jones on Sun Jun 5 00:24:11 2011. Google maps doesn't reflect reality very well. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Hank eisenstein on Sun Jun 5 07:25:37 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Osmosis Jones on Sat Jun 4 23:55:54 2011. Your few days of casual observation don't jibe with my, and others, lifelong experience as Staten Island residents. Unless you're about to prove to me you have credentials as a transportation engineer or urban planner, you're the one with the talking gluteus. |
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Re: Leave it alone Hank |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Jun 5 08:57:44 2011, in response to Leave it alone Hank, posted by JAzumah on Sat Jun 4 00:30:30 2011. Don't listen to JAzumah, Hank. You've been pwning Osmosis Jones six ways to Sunday and it is hilarious. Keep up the good work. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Jun 5 09:02:08 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Hank eisenstein on Sun Jun 5 07:23:17 2011. lol @ Osmosis Jones for thinking that it does |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Jun 5 09:02:45 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Hank eisenstein on Sun Jun 5 07:25:37 2011. His credentials are they he's spent much of his youth riding every single bus route in the city. Sad. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sun Jun 5 09:24:19 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by JAzumah on Sat Jun 4 19:02:38 2011. Actually, there hasn't been as large a difference as you think.Here is a map of the 2010 census results showing population growth: http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/map The areas that grew the most were: North Shore: West Brighton, Port Richmond, Mariners' Harbor South Shore: Arden Heights, Charleston, Tottenville Plus, the whole area from eastern Eltingville to western New Dorp has actually lost population, and you don't see that trend on the North Shore (the areas that lost population are more scattered) |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sun Jun 5 09:34:21 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Osmosis Jones on Sat Jun 4 23:52:44 2011. St. Pauls Avenue is in a very hilly area of Stapleton, which is why it has the S78.As far as the movie theater goes, it is fairly close to the residential areas in Mariners' Harbor. When I'm on the S46, I see that a lot of the people getting on within Mariners' Harbor are going south of Forest Avenue. I think it has to do with all the turns slowing it down and the fact that the S46 runs every 12-15 minutes, making it more feasable to walk for trips within the neighorhood. The Mariners' Harbor Houses are less than a 15 minute walk (I've walked it myself) from the movie theater, so any demand would come from areas further east. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sun Jun 5 10:03:59 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Osmosis Jones on Sat Jun 4 23:50:14 2011. You're right: Having the local S79 branch is better (maybe to avoid confusion, you could have the limited S79 via Richmond Avenue labeled as the S79, and the local S79 via Giffords Lane labeled as the S77)As far as Richmondtown goes, I would say that it is like Giffords Lane (on the weekends): There is the S74 at the northern end and the SIR at the southern end. What I would do is have the S54 serve Clarke Avenue rather than Richmond Road, but obviously that can't be done if you want it to serve New Dorp. The problem with SI Hospital South is that there aren't any major trip generators nearby. Connecting a hospital with a train that runs infrequently (the SIR) is going to yield a very low ridership route. I think there is nothing that could be done to serve that area: People will have to walk 5 minutes to Hylan Blvd, where they have the S55, S56, S59 (rush hours), and S78. The S59 can get crowded at times, but it still has the dubious label of "high student ridership", which is a nice way of saying that there aren't a lot of paying adults riding the route. I've also noticed that, although ridership during rush hour is decent: Generally, there are a few standees, depending on what the scheduling is like (where the S44/S94 and S89 are in relation to the S59) By the way, if you want a corridor that could really use the service, look at the service road of the SIE between Richmond Avenue and South Avenue. Because it is fairly isolated (there is the SIE on one side of the neighborhood and a forest on the south side of Lamberts Lane on the other side), there is no east-west bus in the area (since it is isolated, it is a long walk to the S48 or S62). I proposed solving this problem by an S93 extension to Arlington, but maybe your S67 would be able to serve that area instead. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by LRG5784 on Sun Jun 5 11:03:55 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sun Jun 5 10:03:59 2011. You'd be better off relabeling the S79 via Giffords Lane as S79A as the route wouldn't be separate from the regular route long enough to warrant its own designation as "S77" (ex. S44 and S61 have the same terminals but take very different routes; same for the S74 and S78).I actually have some ideas I'd like to throw in to better serve the area around the SI Mall that I never put up, so I thought I'd post them now: S44/S94 Limited: Send these routes via Marsh Avenue (behind the mall) instead of Ring Road (in front of the mall). You already have the S59 and having two buses that run along Richmond Avenue north of the mall via Ring Road is redundant, to say the least. The S61 would run in front of the mall in place of the S44. S55/S56: Run these bus routes in front of the mall via Ring Road. I don't know what good this would do to the lowest-used buses in the system but I figured the S55/56 could swap places with the S79. These bus routes will bypass K-Mart. S59: Same, except my ideas call for overnight service to be reinstated, and have the S59 run behind the mall during late night hours. During daytime hours the S59 stays the same. S61/S91 Limited: Run these buses in front of the mall in place of the S44. Riders can have access to service along Victory Boulevard without having to transfer to the S62, which suffers from traffic problems between Richmond Avenue and the Willowbrook Expressway during rush hours. S79: My idea calls for three S79s: S79 Local, S79 Limited, and S79A Local via Giffords Lane. The S79 and S79A Locals operate behind the mall and serve K-Mart, operating during daytime hours except rush hours. The S79 Limited operates in front of the mall but bypasses K-Mart, and operates during weekday rush hours and all day on weekends, generally during the hours the mall is open. S89 Limited: Same. Thoughts? |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sun Jun 5 11:17:46 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by LRG5784 on Sun Jun 5 11:03:55 2011. I think every single route should be routed via the back of the SI Mall (Marsh Avenue). It would allow the routes to serve the schools in the area (there are trippers that go to the schools, but it would still help for students traveling for extracurriculars and such), and the main benefit is that the buses would be closer to the homes in the area. I'm sure that there is at least some untapped demand for travel between the Marsh Avenue homes and the Richmond Avenue corridor.Having every single route on one street has its advantages: People have access to all possible destinations: For northern Richmond Avenue, there is the S44/S94 and S59/S89 For southern Richmond Avenue, there is the S59/S89 and S79/S79A For St. George, there is the S44/S94 and S61/S91 For the Eltingville Transit Center, there is the S55/S56, S59/S89, and S79/S79A. The only disadvantage that I see is that buses might be delayed a little bit when there is school traffic, and the S44/S94 are already long routes. Maybe, during those hours, a couple of S44 buses could start at Richmond Avenue/Richmond Hill Road. As far as your idea goes, I think my idea is better. It is advantageous to keep buses serving the same areas together (the passengers have the advantage of combined frequencies, which is important since neither of those routes is that frequent), so separating the S44 and S59 would be the exact opposite. Like I said, I think the S79 limited (or +SBS+ when they put it on Hylan Blvd) should operate all day, and the local S79A should operate all day as well, serving Giffords Lane. It is less confusing than having a rush hour limited/off-peak local scenario. |
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