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| Re: Second Ave Alignment Change (637196) | |
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| (638914) | |
Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Tue Jun 24 09:34:59 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by Russ on Tue Jun 24 08:36:15 2008. "We're not looking at the double digit unemployment and inflation of the Carter years."Or the Nicon and Ford years. |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Tue Jun 24 10:21:21 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jun 24 03:29:18 2008. Not in the Bronx ... we were used to els anyway. If it's quieter than rickety steel, it'd be a WINNER!There is a big difference between the old stuff and the new stuff. The modern stuff will cast a larger shadow because, well, it's larger. It will have a wider deck and concrete acoustical sound deflecting parapets. The small foot print (roughly 3') of steel columns will be replaced by concrete columns with footprints ranging from 6' to 8'. Spans between column bents maybe greater then what was used on the old stuff, but the look of the fewer concrete columns will make it look far more massive then the steel columns that supports the old stuff. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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| (638929) | |
Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Tue Jun 24 10:34:29 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jun 24 03:29:18 2008. I think that the political point is that would be NYC admitting serious error, which they usually refuse to do. NYC tore down els years ago, promising quick replacement with subways. In some cases, it happened, but in most it did not, and more than that, it probably never will. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by Russ on Tue Jun 24 11:21:49 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by RonInBayside on Tue Jun 24 09:34:59 2008. True. I left them out because they are associated with the 73-75 recession that Wallyhorse mentioned. |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Jun 24 13:31:40 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by RonInBayside on Tue Jun 24 09:34:59 2008. Inflation never reached annual double figures while "I'm not a crook" and "Whoops!" were in the White House. |
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| (639050) | |
Re: Third Avenue El in The Bronx |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Jun 24 17:31:50 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by trainsarefun on Tue Jun 24 10:34:29 2008. Actually:That was now an entire generation ago that it was an error, and the people who did that probably are long gone. If anything, it would be a new generation correcting the errors of an earlier one. |
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| (639098) | |
Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Jun 24 19:03:29 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Jun 24 03:37:15 2008. What is this obsession with Columbia? Their tuition is way more than NYPD rookie's salary. Let them pay for it if they want more public transit. |
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| (639099) | |
Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Jun 24 19:03:59 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 23 16:56:15 2008. Cheeseburger? |
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| (639397) | |
Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Jun 25 02:25:11 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jun 24 03:29:18 2008. Not in the Bronx ... we were used to els anyway."Used to" are the key words there. There has not been an el above Bronx 3rd Av since 1973. Every person who has bought property or started a business in the vicinity since then has done so with the understanding that there will not be a noisy eyesore there and paid so accordingingly. A rebuild of the 3rd Av El would be undesirable, unthinkable and impossible. Rebuilding it would not be righting a wrong but compounding it instead. I say build a subway. |
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| (639400) | |
Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Jun 25 02:32:36 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Jun 24 06:32:57 2008. The stubway's Phase One will actually terminate at the end of the first unused 1970's tunnel at 105th St. That's a total extension of 42 Manhattan blocks from 63rd St in one of the most densely populated areas in the world. |
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| (639575) | |
Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Jun 25 14:38:46 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by SMAZ on Wed Jun 25 02:25:11 2008. We are not talking of your grandfather's el.Modern els will be quiet, and will be a boon and not a bust for the community. Besides, it will increase the values, not sink them. ROAR |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by TheGreatOne2k8 on Wed Jun 25 14:47:32 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by SMAZ on Wed Jun 25 02:25:11 2008. The Fordham Road Station would have to be extremely deep because Metro North is there. |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Jun 25 15:49:10 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by TheGreatOne2k8 on Wed Jun 25 14:47:32 2008. Why? How deep is the Metro North line?ROARING |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Jun 25 16:27:03 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Jun 25 15:49:10 2008. Open cut, SeaBits depth ... |
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| (639655) | |
Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by Russ on Wed Jun 25 19:08:11 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by SMAZ on Wed Jun 25 02:25:11 2008. ""Used to" are the key words there. There has not been an el above Bronx 3rd Av since 1973. Every person who has bought property or started a business in the vicinity since then has done so with the understanding that there will not be a noisy eyesore there and paid so accordingingly. A rebuild of the 3rd Av El would be undesirable, unthinkable and impossible. Rebuilding it would not be righting a wrong but compounding it instead. I say build a subway."I think that you raise some very valid points, but modern Els are not noisy. Based on the size of an El, and the width of Third Avenue, I agree that a subway would stand a far better chance of local acceptance. Also, you mention 1973 as the year when the El was torn down. That is 35 years ago. Barring an unforeseen breakthrough in construction techniques, and/or revenue source, building the SAS into the Bronx won't even be pop until the SAS is finished. Allowing for the requisite 2-5 years of delay, we're looking at extending the SAS into the Bronx no earlier than roughly 50 years after the El came down. I doubt that the locals will be very tolerant. All that said, I do think that Els are slated to see a limited resurgence in NYC. I'm not sure when or where (my bet is on the medians of highways,) but the very fact that we have a modern El for the JFK AirTrain will be very effective at ameliorating the concerns of people who will have to live near an El. It is an example of just how quiet today's Els are. All that the MTA would have to do, if and when the day comes that they are promoting the construction of an El, is to offer members of a community a free field trip to watch and listen to the JFK AirTrain, with a free boxed lunch. Such a field trip is far less expensive than the cost differential of building a subway, and also less expensive than fighting community opposition. |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Jun 25 20:10:45 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by Russ on Wed Jun 25 19:08:11 2008. "...the very fact that we have a modern El for the JFK AirTrain will be very effective at ameliorating the concerns of people who will have to live near an El. It is an example of just how quiet today's Els are."The AirTrain is only a two-car shuttle. Might a regular line running full ten-car trains be noisier? |
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| (639677) | |
Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Wed Jun 25 20:12:35 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by Russ on Wed Jun 25 19:08:11 2008. I think if they use good steel to make a good El with well designed rail brackets, it should be quiet enough. |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by Russ on Wed Jun 25 20:15:04 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Jun 25 20:10:45 2008. The AirTrain is only a two-car shuttle. Might a regular line running full ten-car trains be noisier?That's a good question. I'm sure that the MTA could get the Port Authority to run a ten car AirTrain as a demonstration, if there was such a need. |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Wed Jun 25 20:33:44 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by Russ on Wed Jun 25 20:15:04 2008. What's even more relevant there is that the ROW is down the middle of an expressway and is at a good distance, both in elevation and horizontal displacement, from the low-rise construction that charaterizes most of the stretch of the Van Wyck (except of courrse as it nears downtown Jamaica). The train really doesn't run near anybody.Miami Metrorail is very quiet too. I used to live near it 20 years ago. |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Wed Jun 25 21:58:26 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by RonInBayside on Wed Jun 25 20:33:44 2008. The AirTrain is only a two-car shuttle. Might a regular line running full ten-car trains be noisier?Not much. The range of decibel level maybe close to the same. The only difference will be the duration of that decibel as the longer train passes. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Wed Jun 25 22:38:53 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Wed Jun 25 20:12:35 2008. I think if they use good steel to make a good El with well designed rail brackets, it should be quiet enough.There are two things that make an elevated quite. Acoustical deflecting parapets and direct fixation rail fasteners. Both have been around for years. The method of construction makes no difference (poured in place concrete deck on steel beams, poured in place concrete deck on steel box beams, poured in place concrete deck on post tension concrete beams, segmented post tension concrete bridge spans, monolithic poured in place bridge spans) as long as direct fixation rail fasteners and acoustical deflecting parapets are present. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Wed Jun 25 22:44:07 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by Sand Box John on Wed Jun 25 22:38:53 2008. Thanks for those, but those aren't good. I think the MFSE old version was probably quietest...it had BALAST. Concrete ties are also LOUDER than wood ties, and rails laid in concrete are loud, even with the rubber. Now the sound deflection can work for any type of El. |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by J trainloco on Wed Jun 25 23:00:38 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Wed Jun 25 22:44:07 2008. Concrete ties are also LOUDER than wood ties,Really? How? |
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| (639841) | |
Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Wed Jun 25 23:11:59 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by J trainloco on Wed Jun 25 23:00:38 2008. I have ridden on systems with both...and others can verify, concrete just bounces the sound off, while the wood, plus better ballast absorbs more of it. |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by J trainloco on Wed Jun 25 23:18:32 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Wed Jun 25 23:11:59 2008. Considering that there are two types of sound transmission, please inform me how attenuating structureborne sound solves the problem of noise near an el? |
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| (639851) | |
Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Wed Jun 25 23:19:27 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by J trainloco on Wed Jun 25 23:00:38 2008. Ever try to hit a baseball with a concrete tie? :0) |
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| (639864) | |
Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Wed Jun 25 23:31:52 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by J trainloco on Wed Jun 25 23:18:32 2008. Hmmm...you are so smart...you get the  Next time, don't say something and act so smart. Obviously, you are either trying to look smart, or make me loo dumb, and seriously, it seems you don't understand the subject enough. |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Jun 25 23:35:01 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Wed Jun 25 23:31:52 2008. uh, you're the one who's always wrong. it's not the other way around. |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Wed Jun 25 23:36:21 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Jun 25 23:35:01 2008. We could put both of you in a special ed class so the therapist could try to help both at the same time. |
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| (639884) | |
Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by J trainloco on Wed Jun 25 23:53:00 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Wed Jun 25 23:31:52 2008. I have taken a class with one of the pre-eminent acousticians in this country. I know what I'm talking about. The question is, do you? |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by BMTLines on Thu Jun 26 00:19:25 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by SMAZ on Wed Jun 25 02:25:11 2008. I say build a subway.Given the economic realities NEITHER an el nor a subway will ever be built. IF (and that is even doubtful at this point) the SAS ever gets completed it will be the last new subway construction New York City sees in the next 200 years. |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Thu Jun 26 00:20:56 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Wed Jun 25 22:44:07 2008. Thanks for those, but those aren't good. I think the MFSE old version was probably quietest...it had BALAST.Would you happen to know why the old version was replaced? Concrete ties are also LOUDER than wood ties. . . None of the examples I showed employed concrete ties. . . .and rails laid in concrete are loud, even with the rubber. In my experience the sound from the propulsion system and the HVAC make more noise then the noise coming from the wheels rolling on the rails. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Thu Jun 26 00:26:53 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by BMTLines on Thu Jun 26 00:19:25 2008. BMTLines...that conjecture is true, unless the administration is changes...believe, good will happen. |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by Russ on Thu Jun 26 00:50:29 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Wed Jun 25 23:31:52 2008. you are either trying to ... make me loo dumbHe doesn't have to try. |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by SMAZ on Thu Jun 26 01:32:50 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Jun 25 14:38:46 2008. Modern els will be quiet, and will be a boon and not a bust for the community. Besides, it will increase the values, not sink them.They also uglify a community. Especially over a currently sun-drenched avenue. That's bad for property values. Anybody under 40 years old or anyone who has moved in that community in the last 35 years has no recollection of the old El let alone any nostagia for it. To them, Third Avenue has always been as it is today. I would be surprised if a majority there is aware that there even ever was an el. My guess is that they would rather have nothing at all then a new el, even a modern quieter one. I say let old lions rest. |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by TheGreatOne2k8 on Thu Jun 26 01:43:06 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by SMAZ on Thu Jun 26 01:32:50 2008. Bus Rapid Transit anyone? |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by SMAZ on Thu Jun 26 02:08:24 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by Russ on Wed Jun 25 19:08:11 2008. All that the MTA would have to do, if and when the day comes that they are promoting the construction of an El, is to offer members of a community a free field trip to watch and listen to the JFK AirTrain, with a free boxed lunch.That could convince enough Bronx residents to build a new trunk line over the Cross-Bronx or Bruckner Expressways but not over a commercial and residential street. |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jun 26 02:28:11 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by J trainloco on Wed Jun 25 23:53:00 2008. pwned |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jun 26 02:33:39 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Jun 23 20:35:20 2008. I am certain that he is wrong since the line is being built from the north down.If 72nd is ever built then 86th and 96th will have already been built. |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by SMAZ on Thu Jun 26 03:58:04 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jun 26 02:33:39 2008. If 72nd is ever built then 86th and 96th will have already been built.That's correct. |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Thu Jun 26 06:18:55 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by RonInBayside on Wed Jun 25 23:36:21 2008.  |
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Re: Second Ave Phase 2 expansion |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Jun 26 06:43:43 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Jun 24 19:03:29 2008. Wado:I actually do think Columbia should be looked at in terms of paying for some of it, but even without that, the extension all the way across 125th to Broadway-12th avenue should be done anyway if at all possible since that expansion would have the SAS double as a 125th street crosstown, with as noted transfers to ALL of the other lines across 125th. Columbia's expansion only drives home the point that this should be done, as otherwise, the 1 train is going to be facing a lot more crowding than it would otherwise. |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Jun 26 10:42:05 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by J trainloco on Wed Jun 25 23:53:00 2008. Hey. Some things are just intuitive. Why spend money on a teacher when you can see for yourself all there is to know about every given topic.ROAR |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Jun 26 11:05:14 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Thu Jun 26 00:26:53 2008. Administration?WHAT ADMINISTRATION? Washington? That *will* change... Either McCain or Obama, but neither one of those schmucks will be any good for this country. The LION will write-in Rush Limbaugh. That will let the stoopit Republicans know that I at least am NOT pleased with them. Besides, if the country must fall into a socialist hell in a hand-basket, at least it should do so on a Democrat Party watch. ROAR |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Jun 26 11:14:58 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by SMAZ on Thu Jun 26 01:32:50 2008. The LION is in favor of and specified a SUBWAY. It is just that a modern el would NOT be an eyesore or a earsore to the community.People said that in Merrick before the LIRR was elevated. It actually opened up the downtown, and allowed more cross streets and open spaces. You hardly notice the thing, and certainly do not hear it. Admittedly it was replacing a surface railroad, but the fact that it is good is indisputable. There is no doubt whatsoever that a wonderful, quiet, airy and light el can be built on 3rd Ave. Nonetheless, the LION did specify a SUBWAY. ROAR |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by Russ on Thu Jun 26 15:11:45 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by BMTLines on Thu Jun 26 00:19:25 2008. Given the economic realities NEITHER an el nor a subway will ever be built. IF (and that is even doubtful at this point) the SAS ever gets completed it will be the last new subway construction New York City sees in the next 200 years.Given the economic realties that comes with population growth, don't bet on that. |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Jun 27 01:25:00 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Jun 26 11:14:58 2008. OK |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by jimmymc25 on Fri Jun 27 02:24:45 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jun 26 02:28:11 2008. Nah...he's too easy for ownage.Jimmymc25 |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Jun 27 02:59:56 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Wed Jun 25 23:31:52 2008. Perhaps he KNOWS what he speaks of.Not disrespect here,buddie...but I think it is YOU who behave in the "KNOW IT ALL" fashion...so it didn't take much to show you up here. How about just siting back and waiting your turn? |
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Re: Second Ave Alignment Change |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Jun 27 05:25:53 2008, in response to Re: Second Ave Alignment Change, posted by Russ on Thu Jun 26 15:11:45 2008. Absolutely:And as noted, if anything, I think you will see Phase 2 of the SAS extend all the way across 125th street, especially with the development coming over the next 15 years as Columbia expands (and again, that expansion simply shows the need for the SAS to fully extend across 125th street). |
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