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What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by ROCKAWAYNY2016 on Sun Nov 27 22:30:32 2022

From the NY TIMES:
Go to full article with pics at link below.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/26/nyregion/queens-high-line.html

ov. 26, 2022
As a teenager in the 1990s, Karen Imas sneaked onto some abandoned tracks in Queens with her friends. They followed the broken railroad through a sunlit forest until they could go no further.

“It felt like a hidden gem,” recalled Ms. Imas, now 45 and living near the tracks with her own children. “It was something fun and adventurous that not everyone had access to.”

The three-and-a-half-mile commuter rail line once carried passengers through central and southern Queens as part of a route down to the Rockaways before closing in 1962 amid declining ridership and service. Since then, it has become an industrial ruin, surrounded by overgrown weeds and fallen branches, hidden in the heart of New York City’s second-most populous borough.

Ms. Imas and many others see the abandoned rail line as precious wasted space that should be turned into a nature trail, or to use the voguish term favored by urbanists, a linear park, similar to the High Line in Manhattan. The envisioned project, called the QueensWay, would connect a half-dozen neighborhoods, which sit on either side of the old rail line.

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Though New York has a sprawling network of parks, it was created largely piecemeal as neighborhoods were developed, leaving many residents around the city, including in parts of Queens, with less access to green spaces because they do not live within walking distance of a local park or because they have to cross busy roads to get to one.

At the same time, however, many Queens residents also don’t live near a train or subway station, and would prefer to reactivate the rail line in this transit-starved area. Inspired by this demand, a group of transit advocates has developed its own plan, known as the QueensLink. Needless to say, both sides feel passionately that they are in the right.

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The debate around repurposing the old tracks and the thicket that has grown around them highlights the increasing complexity of managing public space in a crowded city. Even as the pandemic has made fresh-air options for the public more important than ever, New Yorkers are divided over initiatives like curbside dining and the city’s Open Streets program, which vie with cars for room on frequently gridlocked roads.

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ImageAutumn leaves fall on old train tracks in a thicket of Queens.
The envisioned project for the old rail line, called the QueensWay, would be a linear green space that connects a half-dozen neighborhoods, including Rego Park, Woodhaven and Richmond Hill.Credit...Karsten Moran for The New York Times

At the moment, it looks like the QueensWay has the best chance. The idea for a linear park grew out of more than a decade of community meetings and volunteer cleanup days on the rail line. Now it is finally taking shape. In September, Mayor Eric Adams committed $35 million to convert nearly three-quarters of a mile of the city-owned rail corridor into a five-acre park, which will be called the Met Hub. City officials have not yet given an opening date for the park.

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“Building on the proven model of linear parks, our $35 million investment vision for the QueensWay will enhance quality of life, improve air quality and kick-start local small businesses,” Mayor Adams said in a statement this month, pointing to the popularity of the High Line and the car-free Open Streets.


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By The New York Times
But QueensLink proponents say that many residents of the neighborhoods in question — Forest Hills, Rego Park, Glendale, Woodhaven, Ozone Park and Richmond Hill — need transit options far more than they need green space, and that their plan would include parkland around the tracks.

Mike Scala, 39, a lawyer in Howard Beach, made restoring rail service a centerpiece of his two campaigns for City Council in 2017 and 2021. He said those living in southern Queens, part of the area along the proposed QueensWay, feel cut off from the rest of the city and struggle to get to their jobs, schools and hospitals. Businesses do not invest in the area, he added, because it is too hard to get to.

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“I really think it’s about equity,” Mr. Scala said. “People in south Queens just don’t have the opportunities that people in the rest of the city do and it all comes back to transportation.”

Linear parks are all the rage
Since 2009, when a derelict elevated freight line on Manhattan’s West Side was remade into one of the city’s most popular showcase parks, there has been a growing movement to repurpose dilapidated infrastructure, including the 606 in Chicago, the Atlanta BeltLine and a defunct rail line in New Jersey.

Robert Hammond, a founder of the High Line, was asked so often for advice that, in 2016, he started a network to share resources and lessons among groups that are today working on 37 projects across North America. A separate New York City-only initiative, the Public Space Alliance, has 15 projects, including the QueensWay.

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Many of these projects aim to strengthen urban communities with a host of social, cultural, environmental and economic benefits, including creating more land for affordable housing in Atlanta, supporting Black residents and businesses in Los Angeles, and establishing new civic and cultural hubs in minority and low-income neighborhoods in Washington.

“We’re working to reconnect communities that typically have been torn apart by past infrastructure decisions,” said Asima Jansveld, the interim chief program and engagement officer for the Friends of the High Line.

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A view from above an old rail line shows low-lying buildings, shrubs and parked vehicles on either side.
The old rail line in Queens stretches from Rego Park in the north to Ozone Park in the south.Credit...Karsten Moran for The New York Times

The Queens rail line, which was operated by the Long Island Rail Road, traverses a 47-acre landscape with tree-covered hills, a ravine and several overpasses. It has long been used as an illegal party ground and as a dump for tires and construction debris. An A.T.M. was even abandoned there.

Inspired by the High Line, a group of neighbors saw the potential in their own backyard. “We all got involved because we just wanted to make our lives better,” recalled Travis Terry, 47, the president of Capalino, an urban strategy consulting firm, and a father of three in Forest Hills.

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The group organized as the Friends of the QueensWay and enlisted the help of the Trust for Public Land, a conservation group. Together, they have raised more than $3 million in grants and donations since 2011 to advance the idea.

Carter Strickland, the New York State director for the trust, said the QueensWay would serve as a communal yard for about 244,000 residents and a dozen schools in the area, and that it would also link to a large park and several ball fields in a borough with few greenways.

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In 2013, Friends of the QueensWay and the trust held a design contest for the site that drew 27 proposals from architecture and planning firms around the world. Soon, urban planning and landscape architecture classes at New York University, Cornell University and schools in Japan and the Netherlands were studying the QueensWay.

The potential has excited the children of Queens as well. In 2014, an ideas forum for students was held in Forest Hills. They ticked off their wish list: A zoo, a zip-line and a racetrack. Ms. Imas, who used to sneak onto the tracks as a teenager, has gotten her family involved in the initiative.

“They’re a little sick of me dragging them to cleanups,” Ms. Imas said. “But I think I’m instilling a sense of civic participation and how this could change the borough and the community.”

A long and circuitous commute
Although the park has gained momentum, there is a strong case for using the tracks for trains. Queens residents have some of the city’s longest commutes to Manhattan, especially those living in Howard Beach, Jamaica and the Rockaways, which have historically been neglected by a century-old subway system that was originally built to serve Manhattan.

Donovan Richards, the Queens borough president, lived in Far Rockaway from 2005 to 2012 when he worked as an aide in the City Council. It would often take him two hours to commute to City Hall in Lower Manhattan because his only subway option — the A train — would first swing through Brooklyn.

“I got to Florida quicker than I got to Manhattan,” Mr. Richards said.

The rail line, if repurposed for train or subway service, could carry commuters and other riders directly between south Queens and Manhattan as well as among Queens neighborhoods. It could also expand transit options for getting to and from Kennedy International Airport and Resorts World, a casino and entertainment complex, both deep in Queens.

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The Queensway supporters Karen Imas, Ruben Ramales and Travis Terry, all wearing light fall jackets, stand on part of the old rail line, surrounded by trees and fallen leaves.
From left, the Queensway supporters Karen Imas, Ruben Ramales and Travis Terry.Credit...Karsten Moran for The New York Times

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Miriam Bensman and Mike Scala stand on the street. They believe the abandoned rail line should be reactivated for transit service.
Miriam Bensman, left, and Mike Scala believe the abandoned rail line should be reactivated for transit service.Credit...Karsten Moran for The New York Times

A 2019 study by the state-controlled Metropolitan Transportation Authority estimated that restoring the rail line could serve as many as 47,000 local riders a day and would cost between $6.8 billion and $8.1 billion. Another study commissioned by QueensLink supporters found that it would cost between $3.4 billion and $3.7 billion.

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The big question, however, is whether the rail line will ever be restored.

The authority continues to evaluate the line’s possible reactivation, along with more than 20 other expansion projects, which would be included in its 20-year capital plan, scheduled to begin in 2025.

Janno Lieber, the M.T.A.’s chairman and chief executive, recently told Queens leaders that the authority has asked the city not to preclude transit from the corridor and to include the agency in the design of the park.

Gov. Kathy Hochul has not weighed in on the QueensLink, though she has pushed for another project, the Interborough Express, a transit line that would connect Brooklyn and Queens.

City officials, who are just starting to design the park, as well as QueensWay supporters, emphasized that they are not ruling out rail service, and that it could be incorporated later.

But Rick Horan, 69, the executive director of the QueensRail Corporation, the nonprofit supporting the QueensLink, said that it makes no sense for the city to spend millions to design a park while the authority is still evaluating the rail line.

“It’s like putting in landscaping before building a house, you need to design them together,” he said, rather than “try to shoehorn a subway track in afterward.”

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Image
A portion of the tracks underneath a bridge, the columns of which are covered in colorful graffiti.
The old rail line has long been used as an illegal party ground and dump for tires, construction debris and even an A.T.M.Credit...Karsten Moran for The New York Times

The competing plans for the rail line have put Queens leaders in something of a quandary. “In a perfect world, we would have both, and that’s still the ultimate goal,” said Mr. Richards, who even as borough president has been unable to get the two sides to work together. His description of a meeting over the rival plans earlier this year: “I was like a referee in the middle of a wrestling match.”

The Riders Alliance, a grass-roots organization of transit riders, has remained neutral. “These are plans in conflict, but they’re both really good plans,” said Danny Pearlstein, a spokesman.

But the Regional Plan Association, an influential group whose board members include Mr. Terry, who is also president of the Friends of the QueensWay, has thrown its support behind the park.

Tom Wright, the association’s president, said that the rail line is unlikely to be reactivated anytime soon, since the transit authority has a long list of higher-priority projects, including the Interborough Express and extending the Second Avenue subway to East Harlem.

“Sometimes holding out for the perfect thing means that you don’t advance the projects that could really benefit communities in the short and midterm,” he said.

A project for future generations, connecting neighborhoods now
The QueensWay cannot come soon enough for Mr. Terry and its supporters. “There are so many times we didn’t think it was going to happen,” he said. “I still don’t think it’s going to be real until we see people using it.”

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Though still just on paper, the project has already brought people together and forged connections across neighborhoods, even during the pandemic. A 2021 cleanup of a section of the tracks drew more than 100 people — so many that to ensure social distancing, work times had to be staggered and a second cleanup added.

Ruben Ramales, a QueensWay volunteer and resident of Woodhaven, now counts residents from Forest Hills, Rego Park and Ozone Park among his close friends. He has been giving presentations on the QueensWay at local schools for a decade.

When he first started working with the schools, Mr. Ramales, 34, who is currently the executive director of the Queens chapter of the American Institute of Architects, jokingly told students that the park was going to be for them because he would be too old when it was finished.

Now those students are in college.

“I was 23 when I started, I’m now 34,” he said. “There was some truth in that.”

Winnie Hu is a reporter on the Metro desk, focusing on transportation and infrastructure stories. She has also covered education, politics in City Hall and Albany, and the Bronx and upstate New York since joining The Times in 1999.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by qveensboro_plaza on Mon Nov 28 02:48:12 2022, in response to What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by ROCKAWAYNY2016 on Sun Nov 27 22:30:32 2022.

Very interesting how the Times frames the story:

"The three-and-a-half-mile commuter rail line once carried passengers through central and southern Queens as part of a route down to the Rockaways"

They could just as easily have said

"The three-and-a-half-mile commuter rail line once provided passengers in central and southern Queens with direct service to Penn Station"

But that would have made it sound like something actually useful.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by ntrainride on Mon Nov 28 09:47:27 2022, in response to What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by ROCKAWAYNY2016 on Sun Nov 27 22:30:32 2022.

stupid ay holes. no imagination.

make it a horse-drawn carriage-way.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Train Dude on Mon Nov 28 12:41:01 2022, in response to What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by ROCKAWAYNY2016 on Sun Nov 27 22:30:32 2022.

Of course. In the new era of pet bereavement leave and other reasons to avoid the office, what we certainly do not need is another path to make our commute more efficient. We've reduced major thoroughfares to single lane roads with bicycle paths and other frivolities. The trend of the new world order is clear.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Nov 28 20:30:16 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by qveensboro_plaza on Mon Nov 28 02:48:12 2022.

It should be reactivated as a rail line. Your great-great-grandchildred might get to ride it when it opens.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Nov 28 20:50:30 2022, in response to What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by ROCKAWAYNY2016 on Sun Nov 27 22:30:32 2022.

Unfortunately this is quite down the list in terms of important transit projects that I think need to get done within the city. I’d put Triboro RX, building a subway under the LIE, and reactivating the Lower Montauk Branch above reactivating this line when it comes to important transit projects in Queens alone. Any focus on the Queensway rail line should be mostly diverted to Triboro RX, with some additional attention being diverted into improving the nearby Woodhaven SBS Corridor.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by AlM on Mon Nov 28 21:06:39 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Nov 28 20:50:30 2022.

I’d put Triboro RX, building a subway under the LIE, and reactivating the Lower Montauk Branch above reactivating this line when it comes to important transit projects in Queens alone.

Why those? Where are the largest number of Queens residents completely unserved by any nearby subway? Aren't they on an E extension to southeast Queens or an F extension to northeast Queens?

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Nov 28 21:35:49 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by AlM on Mon Nov 28 21:06:39 2022.

Those three projects would be much easier than extending the (E) and (F) trains. Triboro RX and the Lower Montauk line would be almost entirely built on existing rail ROWs, and building a subway under the LIE would provide relatively minimal disruption to the areas surrounding the already busy and loud expressway.

Extending the (F) train in Queens is unfortunately a non-starter for the foreseeable future, too many NIMBYs along Hillside Avenue, especially as you get closer to Floral Park.

Where do you think the (E) train can be practically extended to? I can only think of 1 scenario: Along the LIRR row to Locust Manor which would be duplicative and a waste of money.

Other potential QBL extensions I can think of are: Down the Van Wyck to JFK, which I can’t see the Port Authority allowing to happen, or East along the GCP to Glen Oaks or so, which would be an okay idea, but an extension I most definitely wouldn’t rate above Triboro RX or a LIE subway.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Nov 28 21:40:34 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by AlM on Mon Nov 28 21:06:39 2022.

Where are the largest number of Queens residents completely unserved by any nearby subway?

Apologies for not answering this question in my last post, but I’d say Glen Oaks and South Ozone Park are the largest transit markets in Queens without any rapid transit options currently. I’d also include Rosedale in that group, but I count the LIRR for there, especially with ESA coming soon.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by AlM on Mon Nov 28 21:52:53 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Nov 28 21:35:49 2022.

Where do you think the (E) train can be practically extended to?

Archer Ave, Merrick Blvd is the obvious answer. Unserved by either subway or railroad.

And extending the F train just a mile or so would shorten a lot of bus routes.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by AlM on Mon Nov 28 21:56:16 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Nov 28 21:40:34 2022.

Glen Oaks and South Ozone Park

Glen Oaks is almost Nassau. Lots of closer-in unserved areas.

My in-laws lived in South Ozone Park. Quick bus ride to the A at Liberty.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Nov 28 22:19:21 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Nov 28 21:35:49 2022.

I don’t think an E to Laurelton or Rosedale (not just Locust Manor) would be duplicative at all. The subway would run more often, at higher capacity and be cheaper than the LIRR. That last one doesn’t really justify the capital expense, though, but it’s a fact that the subway is less subsidized than the LIRR.

I think an LIE superway is the best option for NE Queens.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Nov 28 22:29:19 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Nov 28 20:50:30 2022.

"I’d put Triboro RX, building a subway under the LIE, and reactivating the Lower Montauk Branch above reactivating this line"

I agree. However, Id put an El down the middle of the LIE instead of a subway. Build it Airtrain style like what is built over the Van Wyck. Construction would be much cheaper, less disruptive and faster than building a subway.
And screw the NIBYS. They have been beaten before and they can be beaten again.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Nov 28 22:40:41 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Nov 28 20:50:30 2022.

Hmm, someone hates trains by way of creating false dilemmas.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Nov 28 22:42:24 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by qveensboro_plaza on Mon Nov 28 02:48:12 2022.

You certainly get it.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Nov 28 23:10:10 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by AlM on Mon Nov 28 21:52:53 2022.

Archer Ave, Merrick Blvd is the obvious answer.

Practical was the key word in my question. No way can you justify extending the (E) down Merrick Boulevard just to nearly duplicate two LIRR lines over other more crucial projects like the Utica Avenue subway or extending the subway to LGA.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Nov 28 23:34:49 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by AlM on Mon Nov 28 21:56:16 2022.

I forgot to add Fresh Meadows to my list as well. My "Tier A" list of Queens neighborhoods that would benefit the most from newly constructed rapid transit is: Fresh Meadows, Glen Oaks, and South Ozone Park. My "B Tier" list would be Cambria Heights and College Point.

Glen Oaks is almost Nassau. Lots of closer-in unserved areas.

Not really, with the exception of Fresh Meadows, every other neighborhood along a potential GCP/LIE subway to Glen Oaks would already have some form of rail transit serving it.

My in-laws lived in South Ozone Park. Quick bus ride to the A at Liberty.

South Ozone Park has not only one, but two potential subway ROWs already built in the Belt Parkway and Van Wyck Expressway that can provide much needed subway service to Southeastern Queens relatively cheaply within the next decade. Too bad the Port Authority would probably block anything down the Van Wyck, and the MTA seemingly has no interest in serving the Belt Parkway corridor.

The Q10 is a quick ride to Liberty, but then you only get half (A) train service at Lefferts and have to wait forever. All (A) services stop at Rockaway Boulevard, but then the Q7 bus that takes you from there to South Ozone Park takes forever to come. Getting to South Ozone Park on transit sucks a lot more than it has to.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Nov 28 23:56:39 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Nov 28 22:19:21 2022.

I don’t think an E to Laurelton or Rosedale (not just Locust Manor) would be duplicative at all. The subway would run more often, at higher capacity and be cheaper than the LIRR. That last one doesn’t really justify the capital expense, though, but it’s a fact that the subway is less subsidized than the LIRR.

The Atlantic Branch is no where near capacity right now with plenty of room for service improvements, especially now that ESA is coming and Valley Stream Yard is going to free up as well since West Hempstead trains will no longer use it.

If the LIRR were to add stops and match fares with the subway within the city, I don't see why anyone in say Rosedale would take a much slower and "dangerous" (E) train to Penn Station over the LIRR or Express Bus.

I'm personally neutral on extending the (E) over the LIRR (I'd be more in favor of extending the (J)/(Z) TBH), but I can easily see the MTA quickly shutting down any idea for such extension with the points I made above, it's not gonna happen anytime soon and shouldn't quite frankly.

I think an LIE superway is the best option for NE Queens.

Agreed. So many other cities around the country have embraced the idea of using Highway ROWs to cheaply build rapid transit, but NYC remains skittish on the concept for whatever reason.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Nov 29 00:01:16 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Nov 28 22:29:19 2022.

I was going to ask where would you build the portal but then I saw this:

And screw the NIBYS. They have been beaten before and they can be beaten again.

I love it lol!

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Edwards! on Tue Nov 29 01:11:11 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Train Dude on Mon Nov 28 12:41:01 2022.

Goodness gracious.
I actually agree with you Fully on this!


Guess it must be the Republican in me.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Train Dude on Tue Nov 29 01:12:33 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Edwards! on Tue Nov 29 01:11:11 2022.

I never said that you didn't know transit & public policy

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Andrew Saucci on Tue Nov 29 01:15:02 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Nov 28 22:42:24 2022.

The comparison of what could have been said versus what was said reminds me of the old joke about a sporting match between the United States and the Soviet Union. In the Communist press, the story supposedly read, "The Soviet Union took second place in yesterday's event. The United States finished next to last." Sometimes, the bias is very subtle.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by ntrainride on Tue Nov 29 01:26:11 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Nov 28 23:56:39 2022.

now now. every one of our rail transit lines was built way before any superhighway got built.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by AlM on Tue Nov 29 01:29:48 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Andrew Saucci on Tue Nov 29 01:15:02 2022.

Under capitalism man exploits his fellow man. Under communism it's the other way around.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Nov 29 02:56:01 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Nov 29 00:01:16 2022.

Start it at the curve of the Flushing Line at QB and Roosevelt Ave. Have it run down the middle of Queens Blvd until Woodhaven Blvd. There it turns onto/over the LIE for points east.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Nov 29 06:04:58 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Nov 29 02:56:01 2022.

I like that idea, but can Hudson Yards handle that many additional trains? By rerouting the (R) train down the LIE, service would be reallocated on the QBL, not increased, at least hypothetically speaking.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Avid Reader on Tue Nov 29 13:14:10 2022, in response to What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by ROCKAWAYNY2016 on Sun Nov 27 22:30:32 2022.

First I'll address The "E" and "F" trains extensions by a combined LOOP

One Loop, the "E" going counter-clockwise and the other, the "F" going clockwise.

The "E" will run on east bound LIRR ROW making local stops until

where it meets "HEMPSTEAD TYPK" and veers southeast until it crosses

Cross Island PKWAY and turns north into the current Belmont Park LIRR station.

The "E" then continues North along Cross Island where it reactivate

the ROW of the former LIRR to Creedmoor State Hospital then to about

212th St. and Hillside Ave. and along west bound direction to 179th St.

This former LIRR ROW will be a two-level subway so zero property taken from property owners.

The "F" train will continue east along an extension on Hillside Ave.

to 212th St. to Creedmoor State Hosp., along the LIRR ROW to Cross

Island PKWAY to Belmont Park Station, then south to Hempstead TYPK

and east until it reaches the LIRR ROW where it does a flyover to the

north side and continues west bound making local stops and connect

to JAMAIC CENTER

NEXT Northern Queens, extent the Flushing #7 line along the

nearby LIRR ROW as was once planned, taking over the LIRR stations

then running express over Roosevelt Ave.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Nov 29 13:47:29 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Nov 29 06:04:58 2022.

Figure out a way to have A & B division trains run on the Flushing Line on the QB viaduct & send LIE elevated trains down the BMT 60st tunnel from QBP, thus avoiding any traffic jams at Hudson Yards.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Avid Reader on Tue Nov 29 14:47:13 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Nov 29 13:47:29 2022.

Ideally swap the services.
Number 7 Train to Astoria, and IND/BMT service to Flushing and continue along LIRR ROW as originally planed, to Port Washington.

It resembles a cut in Brooklyn!



The astute student will note smoke soot-stained overpass and third rail insulator's wait for 3rd rail.

Murray Hill Station view West 8/11/2014


Note vacant space for interior express tracks.



MU train under 149th Pl. leaving Murray Hill Station View East, 1950



Murray Hill MI Cabin 1925 view West while still under construction.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Nov 29 15:03:21 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Avid Reader on Tue Nov 29 14:47:13 2022.

Forgot about the clearance differences between IRT and BMT? No-go.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Nov 29 16:27:04 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Nov 29 15:03:21 2022.

Clearances can be adjusted, like what was done on the Culver, Astoria and Dyre Ave lines.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Nov 29 19:14:31 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by ntrainride on Tue Nov 29 01:26:11 2022.

Not quite. wikipedia says
See also: Road and History of road transport

Modern highway systems developed in the 20th century as the automobile gained popularity. The first United States limited access road was constructed on Long Island New York known as the Long Island Motor Parkway or the Vanderbilt Motor Parkway. It was completed in 1911.[9]

And FWIW, I want restoration of the rail route far more than a stip park.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Edwards! on Tue Nov 29 20:19:35 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Nov 29 19:14:31 2022.

Exactly.
Queens has the gigantic Forest Park right there where this proposed Queensway nonsense is.

The incredible gallery of the Park supporters is simple. Gaslight the public into believing that the Park is needed, by limiting information and pettling influence.

Adam's is a politician now,and moreover a Republican playing Democrat.

He is also a land and business owner, so it's pretty obvious that he would side with other like minded people who are more interested and involved with generating revenue for their pockets.

The fact that Every single proposal that the MTA or NYCTA pushed has been shot down by Nimbys surrounding the line isn't a new thing.

While it would definitely benefit the Rockaways,Howard Beach, Ozone Park, Richmond Hill and Woodhaven, Nimbus don't care about other people outside of themselves..
They always seem to create problems where no existed..make claims that weren't true..and say bigoted things that shows what they really feel.

This is the real reason why Queens has the least amount of rail service,and nothing will get done.
If the IBX gets built, then it will be an act of God that makes it happen.
Now that our governor has won her own election, she's gonna drop her "pet projects" to low priorities.

New York lacks motivation to expand,due to infighting and ridiculous resistance from people who don't even use the rail system.

It's time tell them to STFU.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by ntrainride on Tue Nov 29 23:00:43 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Nov 29 19:14:31 2022.

motor parkway is nowhere near a "superhighway.

but it makes no sense to build a heavy rail subway along any nyc limited access highway. as far as "modern" notions about where to build rail transit best we do is rail under or over in-city arterials like eastern parkway or the grand concourse or queens boulevard.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by randyo on Tue Nov 29 23:19:17 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by AlM on Mon Nov 28 21:52:53 2022.

The plans which I have seen, called for the E to be extended along reclaimed trackage on the LIRR ROW to Springfield Blvd.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Train Dude on Tue Nov 29 23:21:40 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by randyo on Tue Nov 29 23:19:17 2022.

Somewhere in my archives, I have the actual proposed track plan for both that and the Queens Blvd super express

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by randyo on Tue Nov 29 23:27:46 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Nov 29 16:27:04 2022.

The Flushing Line was built like the Astoria Line to clear 10 ft wide cars. As for the Culver, I received an email from a knowledgeable person that the Culver was built to clear 10 ft wide cars from the beginning and passengers simply had to mind the gap.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by randyo on Tue Nov 29 23:40:28 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Train Dude on Tue Nov 29 23:21:40 2022.

You probably have copies of the same plans that I had access to when I was in scheduling.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Nov 29 23:47:39 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Edwards! on Tue Nov 29 20:19:35 2022.

Having thought IBX was a brilliant idea ever since I bought the original proposal at a hobby shop, I hope Hochulstays on it. Classic example of MTA not liking outsider ideas; but if a Governor twists enough artms...

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Nov 29 23:53:50 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by ntrainride on Tue Nov 29 23:00:43 2022.

Not going to argue over the definition of a super highway other than to point out that such were planned in masny cities back then. While it took getting Fed "urban renewal" money to build the Congress Street Expressway (which al put a former L in the median)in the 50s the plans dated to the 20s. Richard Daley managed to get the new route running a day before an election--a true pro.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by jailhousedoc on Wed Nov 30 00:30:23 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Train Dude on Tue Nov 29 23:21:40 2022.

In regard to that, there was a mention ( I could be wrong ) that the line was not built because subway cars are not FRA compliant. Leave it to the MTA / politicians to come up with an excuse not to do something. As for NIMBYS opposing extension of the G-line on Hillside Ave. to Little Neck Parkway - if the streets are blocked with snow, wouldn't the subway be a good thing ? None are so blind as those who won't see...Years ago the population out there was not like it is now - there are more people. Waiting for a bus during a snowstorm is not fun.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by jailhousedoc on Wed Nov 30 00:31:29 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by jailhousedoc on Wed Nov 30 00:30:23 2022.

Error - I meant F-line, but the people need the service.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Edwards! on Wed Nov 30 03:25:11 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Nov 29 23:47:39 2022.

I fully agree with you about the IBX.
It's a wonderful idea that is long overdue.
However, I'm more in favor of LRTs options than conventional rail.

The medium level rail cars would enable street level operations similar to other cities, like our neighbors across the Hudson River.

Also,this would enable a brand new LRTs system, using underused and abandoned ROWS to be created across the city.

Conventional rail could see service to the Bronx via the new stations being built for Metro North.

The Montauk branch can also be linked in through Jamaica to Southeast Queens,covering the all but forgotten BMT IND routes planned for the area.

The MTA can build branch lines from this route like the LIE route,BQX.

All you need is the will and the financial aid to get this done.


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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Osmosis Jones on Wed Nov 30 03:31:37 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Nov 29 13:47:29 2022.

I like that idea a lot, but Queens politicians will never go for that when the QBL is already pretty much built for a LIE subway.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by LuchAAA on Wed Nov 30 03:40:29 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Edwards! on Wed Nov 30 03:25:11 2022.

Linking Jamaica via Lower Montauk makes sense.

That was actually the original plan for 63rd Street.

But the opposition was strong. Especially in Glendale. I played little league in the fields at Woodhaven Blvd along Lower Montauk. The league always passed around a petition to sign against the proposal

I have family and friends along the line too. Almost every doorbell was rang to sign the petition.

But that was decades ago. I think today there would be less opposition.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Osmosis Jones on Wed Nov 30 03:40:31 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by jailhousedoc on Wed Nov 30 00:30:23 2022.

Besides work (which would probably be cancelled or done from home in a lot of cases), where would they have to go during a hypothetical heavy snowstorm?

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Osmosis Jones on Wed Nov 30 03:48:10 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Edwards! on Wed Nov 30 03:25:11 2022.

The IBX line is a crucial freight link for the Tri-State Area, the best way to go for the IBX is to go the River Line route and run freight during isolated time periods overnight.

Same thing will probably have to happen with the Lower Montauk since NYAR depends on that line heavily. It would suck for the Lower Montauk at first since that would mean no direct service to Manhattan, but after time, hopefully NIMBYs on the line would warm up to it, and then you can link it up to the (7) line.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by ntrainride on Wed Nov 30 03:53:54 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by jailhousedoc on Wed Nov 30 00:30:23 2022.

people move there specifically to not be near a subway. i know it's weird but that's what they do. i agree; a rational society would have extended the liberty avenue line into jamaica, the jamaica avenue and hillside avenue and roosevelt avenue lines out to city limits. along with re-opening the rockaway line up to rego park.

and there are other considerations. a subway to staten island has been needed since the 1920s. or how about reversing it a little, filling in the gap and extending the far rockaway branch to rockaway park and recapturing the entire peninsula as long island rail road territory?

I personally want to see elevated, street level or subterranean "slidewalks" on 34th and 42nd streets. also, that midtown railroad bridge.

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Nov 30 04:10:43 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Osmosis Jones on Wed Nov 30 03:40:31 2022.

Lots of people have to go to work in a heavy snow storm: hospital workers; NYPD, FDNY, Sanitation workers, Transit workers.....

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Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?

Posted by Osmosis Jones on Wed Nov 30 05:29:54 2022, in response to Re: What Does Queens Need More, a New Park or a New Train Line?, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Nov 30 04:10:43 2022.

Agreed, but not enough of them to sway the opinions of their NIMBY neighbors in my opinion.

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