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| Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues (146655) | |
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| (147712) | |
Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Thu Sep 29 22:25:25 2005, in response to Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues, posted by G1Ravage on Thu Sep 29 05:38:12 2005. Queens Boulevard was at 139th & Jamaica.There was another stop, Metropolitan Avenue, at Van Wyck West service road and Jamaica. The Jamaica-VanWyck north exit is on that site now. wayne |
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| (147714) | |
Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Thu Sep 29 22:26:41 2005, in response to Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Sep 29 08:04:32 2005. It's "KA - SHOO - SKO ' :o)wayne |
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| (147715) | |
Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Thu Sep 29 22:29:10 2005, in response to Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Sep 29 09:30:41 2005. That was the 'interim' (Nov 67 to July 68) service pattern. The "JJ" was the true replacement for the Broadway #14 Short Line. It went to Jamaica, Rockaway Parkway and some even terminated at Atlantic Ave.wayne |
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| (147727) | |
Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues |
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Posted by vengence on Thu Sep 29 22:44:22 2005, in response to Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Sep 29 11:21:42 2005. KK didn't jump on the scene untill 68/july...due to 57 st not being ready for service...EVEN though the station WAS Completed much earlier on..as was the 6TH AVENUE EXPRESS TUNNELS sometime after 1965. |
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| (147741) | |
Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Sep 29 23:09:45 2005, in response to Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Thu Sep 29 22:26:41 2005. Gesundheit. |
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| (147742) | |
Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Sep 29 23:15:08 2005, in response to Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues, posted by G1Ravage on Thu Sep 29 22:05:40 2005. Money ran out. It was supposed to be finished much sooner than it was too. Both the lower and upper levels were supposed to go further. One level was supposed to join the LIRR ROW, and run to Springfield Gardens, and the other level was also supposed to continue east somewhere much further too.Jamaica Center was only supposed to be a mere station along the line, not a terminal....but the fiscal crisis of the 1970's killed that, and by 1988, they were lucky to even finish it to Jmaica Center. The demolition of the eastern end of the Jamaica EL in 1977 (September 11th, 1977 to be exact, when the last train rolled through) was done on the promise of much more than what the Archer subway actually became. |
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| (147817) | |
Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Fri Sep 30 01:13:25 2005, in response to Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Sep 29 23:15:08 2005. Wow....that really sucks. |
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| (147825) | |
Example: Fresh 'n New and Eyesore (Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues) |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Fri Sep 30 01:19:38 2005, in response to Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues, posted by M15 to South Ferry on Wed Sep 28 01:06:05 2005. Example of freshness and cheapness.Firstly, here is a BRAND NEW track identification sign at 125 Street on the Lexington Avenue Line:  And now, here's a closeup of a track identification sign for the <7> at Grand Central - 42 Street; a sign that's existed for many, many years and has been "covered up" with new service information about four or five times. Take a close look at this:  It's pathetic. |
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| (147842) | |
Re: Example: Fresh 'n New and Eyesore (Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues) |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Fri Sep 30 01:34:27 2005, in response to Example: Fresh 'n New and Eyesore (Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues), posted by G1Ravage on Fri Sep 30 01:19:38 2005. The bottom one is better. I can't trace through past service patterns on the top one.In any case, the style from the late 80's and early 90's was far superior to the current one -- it gave many more details. |
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| (147867) | |
Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Sep 30 01:56:48 2005, in response to Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues, posted by vengence on Thu Sep 29 22:19:35 2005. "The MTA really didn't WANT to finish the lines..."That's a mischaracterization of the debate over the expansions - and referred mostly to the 63rd st tunnel, not Archer Av. |
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| (147876) | |
Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues |
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Posted by vengence on Fri Sep 30 02:10:11 2005, in response to Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Sep 30 01:56:48 2005. Explain it to me exactly what happened...Mind you now..I Was there...read Most if not all ofthe reports concerning the whys and hows... But I rather hear it from you. |
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| (147879) | |
Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Sep 30 02:16:51 2005, in response to Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues, posted by vengence on Fri Sep 30 02:10:11 2005. There was some debate back and forth among the public and politicians about whether to fill in the 63rd St tunnels. The FTA's threat was real; I don't dispute that. What I dispute was that MTA wanted to abandon both projects. There was a realizatio in the early 1980s that State of Good Repair was going to come first, but that does not equate to MTA wanting to abandon all expansion.I'm glad they didn't! |
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| (147881) | |
Re: Example: Fresh 'n New and Eyesore (Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues) |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Sep 30 02:18:56 2005, in response to Example: Fresh 'n New and Eyesore (Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues), posted by G1Ravage on Fri Sep 30 01:19:38 2005. What's wrong with it (except that the 7 isn't extended to Kansas City)? |
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| (147886) | |
Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues |
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Posted by vengence on Fri Sep 30 02:47:35 2005, in response to Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Sep 30 02:16:51 2005. The fact that the MTA didn't have the WILL to finish the projects speaks volumes..the FTA/UMTA forced them to complete the lines..or they would have had to coff up the 600 MILLION that was given to them.The FACT that it took so long to build them...almost 20 years for the 63 st line ..and 16 years for the Archer tells use that they were reluctant. Counting every time THEY stopped construction...on Both subway projects. They realised early on that they would NOT be able to complete the lines to there REAL terminals..even though the South East route was pretty much already there..with some modifications needed. From the plans that I have seen..the EL structure would have been very nice,alonf with the new stations[rebuilt station most with one brand new one] |
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| (147901) | |
Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Fri Sep 30 06:07:30 2005, in response to Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Sep 29 23:15:08 2005. They really should extend the lower level of the Archer Ave line to at least 168th Street. The should fill the gap that's been left since 1977. It would also be nice if they extended the upper level of the Archer Ave line down to Southeast Queens. |
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| (147922) | |
Re: Example: Fresh 'n New and Eyesore (Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues) |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Fri Sep 30 08:18:03 2005, in response to Example: Fresh 'n New and Eyesore (Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues), posted by G1Ravage on Fri Sep 30 01:19:38 2005. What huge verbose signs! |
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| (147925) | |
Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Sep 30 08:20:23 2005, in response to Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues, posted by vengence on Fri Sep 30 02:47:35 2005. "The FACT that it took so long to build them...almost 20 years for the 63 st line ..and 16 years for the Archer tells use that they were reluctant."Because they didn't have the money. They spent available money fixing the subway, then had nothing for expansion. The Beame Shuffle forfeited $1 billion in federal matching funds. All for an election he lost anyway. What a moron. Not MTA's fault. |
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| (147932) | |
Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Sep 30 08:31:01 2005, in response to Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Sep 29 09:30:41 2005. The JJ service patterns were as follows:AM rush hours: 168th St. and Canal St. Skip-stop along Jamaica Ave. Manhattan-bound. PM rush hours: Canal St. and Crescent St. OR Atlantic Ave. OR Rockaway Parkway. All local stops. Did not operate to 168th St. All other times: 168th St. and Broad St. All stops. |
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| (147933) | |
Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Sep 30 08:32:04 2005, in response to Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Thu Sep 29 22:29:10 2005. It also took on the identity of the old 15 during non-rush hours. |
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| (147946) | |
Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Fri Sep 30 08:50:28 2005, in response to Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Sep 30 08:31:01 2005. What service patterns did the other lines over the Broadway El operate? |
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| (148171) | |
Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues |
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Posted by Red Line to Glenmont on Fri Sep 30 15:19:08 2005, in response to Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Sep 30 08:20:23 2005. Someone should explain, and it might as well be me, that the continuation of the new line after Archer Avenue was supposed to be along the eastern LIRR track ROW to Saint Albans, Queens. Now THAT would have been a useful extension, giving subway service to a very populated part of South Jamaica. |
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| (148185) | |
Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues |
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Posted by Red Line to Glenmont on Fri Sep 30 15:48:02 2005, in response to Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues, posted by Rail Blue on Fri Sep 30 08:50:28 2005. Here's a good one: Look at the RJ, which is like a Hermaphrodite version of the QJ and RR. Eventually they realized that running every third RR train to/from Chambers St. was a the good part of the idea, running it all the way to 168 St. Jamaica was the dumb part.When you talk about service patterns, when do you mean: Pre-Chrystie St., post Chrystie St., or something else? The KK was a little test of whether it was worth using the other part of the Chrystie St. connection (otherwise used in emergencies when the Bridge is unavailable and reversing trains near Essex St.) When the 57/6 station opened as a dead end, the B train could run there instead of W. 4 St. during non-rush hours; what to do during rush hours? Run the Broadway-Brooklyn Local (formerly #14) to 57/6th. Well that meant that all the people who changed in the morning for the F at Delancey/Essex St. from the QJ had to stand between the two platforms seeing which came first, an F or a KK. And in the evening, people would get on the F if it came first and still change at Delancey for the Williamsburg Bridge Expresses. All the KK did was add uncertainty to people's lives. There was a long time ago idea to create the "MM-6th Avenue", which would run local from Metropolitan Avenue on the Myrtle Line to the 6th Avenue Subway to ...168/57/145 (who knows?). One last footnote: the original "M" train (pre-1967) ran express from Coney Island to Chambers St. along the Brighton Line and Nassau Loop "via Tunnel. It was not listed on maps, but there it was, every 3rd Brighton Express in early the morning and mid-rush hour. |
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| (148202) | |
Re: Example: Fresh 'n New and Eyesore (Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues) |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Fri Sep 30 16:25:48 2005, in response to Re: Example: Fresh 'n New and Eyesore (Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues), posted by David of Broadway on Fri Sep 30 01:34:27 2005. The bottom one is better. I can't trace through past service patterns on the top one.Well, of course the railfans would enjoy the old signs more, for the reason you stated. |
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| (148203) | |
Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues |
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Posted by vengence on Fri Sep 30 16:30:50 2005, in response to Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues, posted by Red Line to Glenmont on Fri Sep 30 15:19:08 2005. 2.5 billion should have gone a long way [back then] to build the new lines...but the MTA only recived 600 million[if that]to build its lines.Not nearly enough. The SAS itself cost 500 million alone. |
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| (148209) | |
Re: Example: Fresh 'n New and Eyesore (Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues) |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Fri Sep 30 16:43:55 2005, in response to Re: Example: Fresh 'n New and Eyesore (Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues), posted by RonInBayside on Fri Sep 30 02:18:56 2005. I already stated why. You can see the remnants of three or four older service patterns underneath the current sticker. |
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| (148213) | |
Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues |
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Posted by vengence on Fri Sep 30 17:04:04 2005, in response to Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues, posted by Red Line to Glenmont on Fri Sep 30 15:48:02 2005. Wrong.The KK WAS a very good route. the way the TA operated it wrong. |
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| (148218) | |
Re: Example: Fresh 'n New and Eyesore (Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues) |
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Posted by mr_brian on Fri Sep 30 17:12:54 2005, in response to Re: Example: Fresh 'n New and Eyesore (Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues), posted by David of Broadway on Fri Sep 30 01:34:27 2005. And I liked the giant route bullets as well on those '80s and '90s signs. |
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| (148223) | |
Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Fri Sep 30 17:20:17 2005, in response to Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues, posted by Red Line to Glenmont on Fri Sep 30 15:48:02 2005. When you talk about service patterns, when do you mean: Pre-Chrystie St., post Chrystie St., or something else?I mean when the JJ was operating a different am/pm rush service pattern as Steve outlined. |
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| (148257) | |
Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Sep 30 18:19:28 2005, in response to Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues, posted by vengence on Fri Sep 30 17:04:04 2005. You are referring to frequency of service, then? (Since you liked the route, what else would you be referring to?) |
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| (148336) | |
Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues |
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Posted by vengence on Fri Sep 30 21:45:06 2005, in response to Re: The East 177th Street killing spree continues, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Sep 30 18:19:28 2005. Somewhat.As an all local..rush hour only service..it did little to help the Jamaica line..or relieve any service on the Queens Blvd subway. When the BJ tracks were opened,the TA should have made the KK the 24 hour service..the QJ the part time to Coney Island and the M the full service to Broad st. |
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