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| Re: Putnam question (1464389) | |
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| (1464747) | |
Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Feb 7 19:34:46 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by randyo on Wed Feb 7 19:28:16 2018. The Put was originally a different railroad and as such had different locals and contracts .as for NYC locals the contract for engineers north of Harmon and North White plains was different than Contract for engineers on lower end . |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Feb 7 20:23:07 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Feb 7 19:01:22 2018. So a Harlem or Hudson Div trainman could not bid on a Putnam Job or vice/versa? |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Feb 7 20:24:18 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Feb 7 20:23:07 2018. correct |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by Asgard on Wed Feb 7 22:20:43 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Feb 7 17:13:05 2018. T or S motors; or in later years P motors. *IF* there were surplus motors. And IF there were track capacity and IF there were platform capacity at Grand Central. |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Feb 7 22:26:00 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Feb 7 16:13:37 2018. Why would a union be allowed to dictate on operational matters that do not affect the health and safety of it's members? |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by Dave on Thu Feb 8 06:52:49 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by Asgard on Wed Feb 7 22:20:43 2018. If wishes were horses then beggars would ride. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2 |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Feb 8 07:31:16 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Feb 7 00:51:40 2018. Thank you. Looking at the pictures, I now understand how it worked. |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 8 07:55:07 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Feb 7 19:34:46 2018. Weren't their EMU "engineers" termed "motormen" with separate seniority and qualifications ? |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Thu Feb 8 09:20:30 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Feb 7 22:26:00 2018. competing railroads at the time, so competing work rules.still same these days other than Amtrak no one can operate passenger trains on Metro north, the work belongs to Metro North Unions. |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Thu Feb 8 09:22:29 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 8 07:55:07 2018. all were still Engineers and yes different operating districts had different seniority list, and they would not operate in each others districts. |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 8 11:16:42 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Feb 7 16:37:01 2018. But that's like saying there's "no ridership" east of Ronkonkoma. Like there, service bad, so no one rides. |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Feb 8 11:40:49 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 8 11:16:42 2018. Exactly. |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Feb 8 11:51:40 2018, in response to Putnam question, posted by italianstallion on Wed Feb 7 16:10:28 2018. One thing that's often stated is the lack of parking space near most Old Put stations. The local stations could not function as magnets for the surrounding suburban areas, without parking. |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Feb 8 12:39:36 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 8 11:16:42 2018. The population currently best served by the LIRR east of Ronkonkoma (if they had decent trains) is far larger than the population best served by the Putnam Line in 1958. There just weren't that many people who were closer to the Putnam Line than to the Harlem Line or the Hudson Line. |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Feb 8 13:00:17 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Feb 8 11:51:40 2018. Yes, I understand, but there must have been areas where parking could have been built. |
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| (1464847) | |
Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Feb 8 13:07:11 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by italianstallion on Thu Feb 8 13:00:17 2018. But again, why bother when so few people lived closer to that line than to the Harlem or Hudson lines.I used to have a Hagstrom's 1960 atlas of Westchester (which I have sadly lost). They showed individual property owners' names north of the Cross-Westchester Expressway, and that didn't clutter up the map. More than a couple of miles north of the expressway, there were real towns along the Hudson (Tarrytown, Ossining, Croton, Peekskill) and little villages along the Saw Mill Parkway. The rest was almost all large land tracts. Most of northern Westchester was like Pocantico Hills. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2 |
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Posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Feb 8 13:14:04 2018, in response to [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2, posted by Bill Newkirk on Mon Feb 5 15:56:38 2018. COOL! |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 8 14:23:16 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by Dutchrailnut on Thu Feb 8 09:22:29 2018. I used to ride with an engineer on the Harlem and while on paper there was a “Harlem" and "Harlem Electric” division and a “Hudson” and “Hudson Electric” division, the electric and non electric divisions picked as one. One pick he worked between North White and GCT and another pick he worked between North White and Brewster. Harlem and Hudson did have separate seniority lists and could not pick out without a loss of seniority. |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Feb 8 14:52:18 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by AlM on Thu Feb 8 13:07:11 2018. Sure, but there are now more populated areas there. The lower Put goes through populated sections of Yonkers far from other lines. It goes right by downtown Ardsley - not "Ardsley-on-Hudson." It goes through Elmsford. It passes near Westchester Med. Center, which has expanded mightily. It goes through Yorktown Heights and ends up in Mahopac. All those towns have grown since then, and might have grown more with rail service. |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Feb 8 14:57:39 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by italianstallion on Thu Feb 8 14:52:18 2018. Oh yes, NOW the Putnam Line would be wonderful to have. Just saying that 60 years ago the justification for the Putnam Line was incredibly weaker than the justification for many lines is now. |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 8 15:11:37 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Feb 7 20:24:18 2018. They could, but it would mean a loss of seniority and with such a loss, the employee probably wouldn’t be awarded the job anyhow. |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 8 15:18:41 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by Dutchrailnut on Thu Feb 8 09:20:30 2018. I wonder what would happen if M/N and LIRR were combined as one “MTA Commuter Rail” agency which has been talked about. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2 |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Thu Feb 8 15:25:39 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2, posted by Express Rider on Tue Feb 6 22:39:03 2018. We crossed the Major Deegan, then the walkway turned to the left and became a ramp to the ground. After that, we made a U-turn and walked down the hill to the Sedgwick Ave station remnants.--Mark |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Feb 8 15:27:12 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by randyo on Thu Feb 8 15:18:41 2018. Bigger Bloated Bureaucracy, comes to mind! |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Thu Feb 8 15:50:13 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by AlM on Thu Feb 8 14:57:39 2018. also 60 years ago the natives started to favor the cars and with the Sawmill parkway commuting was easy. and way faster than old Put. |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Thu Feb 8 15:51:18 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by randyo on Thu Feb 8 15:18:41 2018. it was shot down by STB as MTA only reason was to hurt the unions. |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 8 15:51:49 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by randyo on Thu Feb 8 15:18:41 2018. Not since Kalikow has been around. As it is, their police, payroll, and maybe some other systems have been merged. |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 8 15:53:14 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by italianstallion on Thu Feb 8 14:52:18 2018. You could say the same about the Central RR of LI between Flushing, Floral Park, and Bethpage. But it is never coming back. |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Feb 8 15:55:44 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by Dutchrailnut on Thu Feb 8 15:50:13 2018. Yes, that killed it. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2 |
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Posted by Q4 on Thu Feb 8 16:04:41 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Feb 7 00:51:40 2018. If the line was able to be incorporated into the 3 line, would the Sedgwick Avenue station be of any real use today? I don't believe there is a lot around there and the way to get to an from the station sounds like it would have been pretty dangerous spot to be preyed on in the 70's and 80's. The other two stations (155th, Andersen-Jerome) and the connection at 167th st. would have definitely been beneficial.Opinions? |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2 |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Feb 8 16:06:33 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2, posted by Q4 on Thu Feb 8 16:04:41 2018. Yeah, Sedgwick is very close to Anderson, and no buildings to the west of it, only a river, so no need. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2 |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Feb 8 20:24:56 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2, posted by Q4 on Thu Feb 8 16:04:41 2018. Hello Q 4The area in 1958 was a so low to almost no crime group of neighborhoods, safe, and well kept...a pleasure to live and socialize in back then. To safely walk thru day or night. I know first hand... I was there a lot. The area by 1970 was very already on the rise becoming a very dangerous neighborhood / area -- a complete residents and social mores change. Drug and Dope addict culture abounded. Robberies, muggings, homicides and assaults were rising tremendously -- my father got robbed 2 times in 6 weeks in the lobby of his apartment building on Anderson near the Shuttle station. The 2nd robber who, had a gun, my father later saw the same person - whose photo and news article was in the NY Daily News - was captured a few weeks later as a wanted-fugitive from a homicide investigation ! And later was convicted and sent to jail for 2 homicides caused by him Most people already used the IND Station at 8th Ave & W. 155th Street to get to the Bronx and to the "original" Yankee Stadium and up or down along the Grand Concourse, or to the IRT Jerome Line El station at W. 161st Street (free transfer) or alternately to downtown points via the IND train on the Manhattan side at W. 155th street station --- all for a fast one-seat main-line IND train ride. The shuttle was only an asset to those few residents of Anderson Ave. or Sedgwick Ave. Stations whose homes, apartments, were right along that stretch of, and nearby, streets. And that ridership was not enough at all, by far, in 1958 and as such even after, to keep the shuttle running profitably. Most residents already had automobiles, as like my father did and his neighbors. Parking was no problem back then. getting around in the Bronx BY CAR was no problem either -- I know -- I drove thru it since 1965 ! My father and his then elderly father moved out, actually in fear for their lives, in 1971, to upper east side Manhattan. Most of the other long term residents from the 1930's-1950's like my father and many neighbors he and I knew for decades, had previously gradually fled the area -- while many more remaining ones eventually fled the neighborhood by 1975-76. I drove thru it a few times (the area) on, heh, "nostalgia" visits in the 1970's and 80's and it looked like a min-war zone. Saw numerous abandoned cars, some likely stolen, some stripped, some wrecked and burned out, trash all over in the streets and sidewalks, graff all over, some buildings and private homes burned out, etc. Not as really bad as many other sections of the Bronx nor as bad as the area named " Bronx Fort Apache ", as one large section was then called. In these now present times the area has visually rebounded and has much improved, is fully much cleaner, nicer appearing, from those sad earlier decades. And new real estate has replaced many of the long ago burned out, abandoned properties. I don't know how the Polo Shuttle would have survived passenger-wise in the 1970's-80, etc., with the Polo Grounds and the Putnam RR branch gone. The immediate area by the Sedgwick Ave. Station was in a semi-desolate area by 1970 -- mainly caused by the Deegan Highway above it - with the steep hillside at the west side of the Deegan Highway down to the NY Central (or Penn Central) tracks below and the Harlem River shoreline. And the steep Hillside upward to Summit Avenue to the east of the Deegan along Sedgwick Avenue. A muggers paradise to any late night or off peak hours residents on the streets or passengers waiting for a "shuttle train"- had it still been operating there in the 1970-'s-90's! The nearby Police precinct at I think W.167th Street & Sedgwick was a very active place then (1970-1990 decades) Well, that's my opinion -- from someone intimately familiar with the neighborhood and entire area since the early 1950's. regards - Joe F |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Feb 8 20:28:35 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by Dutchrailnut on Thu Feb 8 15:50:13 2018. Yep. That with .30 cents a gallon gas and quarter tolls on the Triborough Br. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2 |
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Posted by VictorM on Thu Feb 8 20:34:59 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2, posted by Bill Newkirk on Tue Feb 6 15:59:02 2018. This construction photo (from nycsubway.org) shows how they tunneled under buildings from Sedgwick Av to reach 162 St at Ogden Av. Those old houses at the crest of the hill on Summit Av are still there! There's even a brand new building on Summit Av constructed over the tunnel between two of the wood frame houses! This aerial view shows the building excavation site where the tunnel was located. It also shows the old houses on Summit Av. You can also see the exact path of the tunnel on the NYC Digital Tax Map. It's labeled "REUC". |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Feb 8 21:05:25 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Feb 8 20:24:56 2018. Joe, one of my friends' mother told me there was an White Anglo-saxon Protestant neighborhood along Woodycrest Ave, near Yankee Stadium. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2 |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Feb 9 00:02:56 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Feb 8 21:05:25 2018. Hello El KeeperWoodycrest Avenue (like Ogden and Anderson Aves) ends southward at Jerome Avenue - all at the bottom of a very steep hill. There were all types of people living there in the 1900 thru 1960's -- Catholics, varied denominations of Protestants, Jewish and a small number of Jehova's ! And mainly residents of Irish, German, Jewish, Italian, multi-European descents --- in that order - with the first in list being the highest in residency numbers. The Woodycrest Home (a one time "boys" home") is still there - it is a huge mansion type building at the Bottom of Woodycrest, and a few Churches were / are at the bottom of the hill. Yankee Stadium (well, the original Stadium) was a LOOOONG walk from the bottom of Ogden, Woodycrest and Anderson Aves. My father and I walked in many times in the 1950's - 60's to catch the IRT Jerome-Woodlawn Line EL at E. 161st St Station - especially after the POLO shuttle quit at end of August 1958. I wish I could go back to those times and that era for a while ! Here is a google map (LINK URL) for the immediate area https://www.google.com/maps/dir/40.834086,-73.9335698//@40.8305386,-73.9291388,17z?hl=en You would NOT want to do that walk - especially at night (as we did returning back to his apartment on Anderson) from 1970 thru 1990's -- NO WAY ! I assume its a lot saver in these present times (I hope) regards - Joe F |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2 |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Fri Feb 9 07:00:15 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2, posted by VictorM on Thu Feb 8 20:34:59 2018. Thanks Victor for the photos and participating in this thread.Bill Newkirk |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2 |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 9 07:11:50 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2, posted by VictorM on Thu Feb 8 20:34:59 2018. I wonder if the building foundation has pierced the tunnel? |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2 |
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Posted by chud1 on Fri Feb 9 08:13:52 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2, posted by VictorM on Thu Feb 8 20:34:59 2018. 5 drooling stars over 5 droolig stars for this picture.:)..... chud1. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2 |
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Posted by Q4 on Fri Feb 9 10:05:42 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Feb 9 00:02:56 2018. Thanks Joe and everyone for their responses. |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Feb 9 10:13:10 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by Dutchrailnut on Thu Feb 8 15:50:13 2018. Today's Saw Mill is no picknick.ROAR |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Feb 9 10:16:57 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by randyo on Thu Feb 8 15:18:41 2018. LIRR is history and tradition. It is now the oldest railroad still flying its original flag.We gotta keep that! Or did ewe forget what happend to the B&O when they were merged into CSX. Is not the same here but it was sure fun to watch the faces at CSX when they found out that because of the charter change thie property was no longer tax exempt! : ) ROAR |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Feb 9 10:18:43 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 8 15:53:14 2018. NEVER is a long long time.It may come back but you would never recognize it. It would be underground all the way. : ) ROAR |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Fri Feb 9 10:30:14 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Feb 9 10:13:10 2018. neither is Put , but sawmill is still here. |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 9 10:50:36 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Feb 8 20:28:35 2018. Those are nominal prices. |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Feb 9 11:18:16 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by italianstallion on Thu Feb 8 14:52:18 2018. The Getty Square branch especially would be a real asset to heavily-populated South Yonkers if it were still around today. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 9 12:31:37 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Feb 9 00:02:56 2018. She is Anglican and said that most of the people on her block, on Woodycrest and 163rd St, belonged to the same church. |
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Re: Putnam question |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Feb 9 12:37:22 2018, in response to Re: Putnam question, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Feb 9 10:18:43 2018. By that definition, the 2nd Ave El has come back. :) |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2 |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Feb 9 13:34:47 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Feb 8 20:24:56 2018. Joe: Your memories of the South Bronx echo mine. I left New York in 1968 and the Grand Concourse then was what it had always been, the Main Street and pride of the borough. I came back four years later to find it a hollow shell of its former self, broken windows, abandoned building and all sorts of undesirables. I had jury duty at the courthouse at 161st Street in the summer of 1974. We received a nice welcome form the county clerk, Leo Levy. He strongly advised us not to visit the adjacent Franz Siegel Park on our lunch break but to remain on the courthouse promenade. It simply wasn't safe to visit even in the middle of the day. Thanks for all the info on the 162nd Street Line. I did explore the area during my jury stints but I never walked through the tunnels. Our conversation here over the past few days is the longest I have ever heard about this line. Even die-hard el fans rarely talked about it and its so full of history. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2 |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Feb 9 22:13:02 2018, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Polo Grounds Shuttle - Part 2, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Feb 9 13:34:47 2018. Hello Larry -- (and ALL) ----The "and ALL" refers to those few others here who offered your collective comments, appreciation, thank-you's, etc., of my historical offerings, memories, details, whatever. I am glad to see a few here who even know what and where I am talking about, heh, re: these long ago (4, 5, 6 or more decades ago) long lost pieces of NYC transit history. It is no secret what the Bronx, as most of the City back then, turned into from say,- 1968 on increasingly up thru early 1990's when it started a slow change back to the quite better looking of what we see in these present times. To have lived in the City in the 1940's-early 60's and see what it turned into was a traumatic experience for long time born and raised residents odf those earlier times -- as well as railfans and historians of the way it was. Thanks for your Bronx memories ! regards - Joe F |
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