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Posted by AlM on Mon Jun 26 23:42:53 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 26 21:00:33 2017. The driverless car can drop its passenger at his office and then either pick up another passenger or drive to a garage that is out of the high rent district.OK, that makes good sense. |
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Posted by sloth on Mon Jun 26 23:52:23 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 26 21:33:46 2017. You've got the beginnings of a Newsday editorial about us lazy, greedy, pudding headed retards there. No, I meant the process of acquiring and maintaining qualifications on territories, rule books, signals, trouble shooting procedures; the successful operation of trains by the many of us who take pride in our craft, the body of human knowledge acquired by humans over almost 200 years of railroad operation. If that means nothing to you and you prefer the robot operator, perhaps with convenient tech support a phone call to India away, well, whatever floats your boat.Plenty of wage structures are unsustainable, and anything I make over a certain amount seems to go straight back to the tax man anyway. Are you a self-styled bean counter, then? Because the MTA seems to keep hundreds of those guys on the payroll to tell them how to stop the crews from earning too much money. |
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Posted by Railman718 on Tue Jun 27 00:39:22 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by LuchAAA on Sat Jun 24 02:52:29 2017. You are not getting my point.. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Posted by Railman718 on Tue Jun 27 00:41:16 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by ftgreeneg on Sun Jun 25 15:59:01 2017. Another One whos out of the loop with things ftgreen pay him no mind.. |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jun 27 15:29:39 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by sloth on Mon Jun 26 23:52:23 2017. Those bean counters who allegedly try to tell MTA management how to keep crews form earning too much money aren’t doing a very good job of it. Under the guise of “productivity” the schedule managers generate work programs that have runs as much as 10 hours long (9:59 actual, not quite a full 10) and then the employees who pick those runs whether because they want to or because they have to often get their names published in the local NY newspapers as an example of the “overpaid” MTA work force. |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Jun 27 15:36:58 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 26 22:25:17 2017. You would know. |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Jun 27 16:12:29 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by sloth on Mon Jun 26 23:52:23 2017. It's been the elimination of "unsustainable" wage structures that has led to the current malaise among workers who don't make enough to sustain a decent life style for themselves and their families, while upper management and the executive class rake in the big bucks via stock options and profit-sharing. It was the previous "unsustainable" wage structures that led to the boom times of the 1950s that created the current middle class, soon to be of late lamented memory. When wages are finally driven down to subsistence levels for all, who will buy the products to sustain the truly "unsustainable" lifestyles of the mega-rich? |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 28 06:45:05 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by sloth on Mon Jun 26 23:52:23 2017. the robot operator, perhaps with convenient tech support a phone call to India away...From the passenger perspective, what's the difference between ZPTO and T/O's and C/R's who barricade themselves in their cabs to avoid passenger contact? One problem with not reducing costs through automation is that costs that cannot be automated are reduced to the detriment of overall service. Here's the NTD's breakdown for subway operations employee costs in 2015: Total cost is $2.2B; vehicle operations accounts for $0.9B; vehicle maintenance accounts for $0.3B; facility maintenance accounts for $0.7B; and administration accounts for $0.3B. N.B. vehicle operations - T/O's and C/R's account for 41% of the total cost. The areas that are most responsible for the current service meltdown - vehicle breakdowns (vehicle maintenance) and signal failures (facility maintenance) account for only 14% and 32%, respectively. Vehicle and facility inspections have been significantly reduced to maintain schedules and stay within budget. This has meant a shift from maintenance to vehicle operations. The result after several years has been the current service meltdown. the MTA seems to keep hundreds of those guys on the payroll to tell them how to stop the crews from earning too much money. There is a point here. The MTA spends almost as much on G&A as they do on vehicle maintenance. However, it isn't their number but their cost. Their average salary is $71/hr vs. $36/hr for vehicle maintenance workers. The direct operations personnel, whose number can be reduced through ZPTO, have an average salary of $40/hr. If direct vehicle operations costs were reduced through automation, more could have been spent on maintenance. That's one result of not automating functions that can be automated. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 28 06:52:32 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by italianstallion on Tue Jun 27 16:12:29 2017. You are describing the societal problem that has been created by how automation has been implemented. It must be addressed, if this society is to continue.What's unsustainable is the highly skewed income and wealth distribution. Getting back to the subways... What's unsustainable about the wage structure isn't the total amount. It's how its distributed between direct vehicle operations and maintenance. |
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Posted by Railman718 on Wed Jun 28 08:02:39 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by randyo on Tue Jun 27 15:29:39 2017. Those runs of up to ten hrs have a TO or CR on the train for nearly six or seven hrs sometimes... You got jobs on the Mikey that have a put in and a lay up for that amount... Then you do two trips to Met.. You think that's easy? BTW take a look at that published list randyo and I bet you'll see Metro North and Long Island railroad people on it.. Thise are the ones making money like that... |
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Posted by BLE-NIMX on Wed Jun 28 08:41:52 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 28 06:45:05 2017. How would your automation have evacuated the derailed target and those stuck behind it? |
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Posted by Railman718 on Wed Jun 28 09:20:19 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by BLE-NIMX on Wed Jun 28 08:41:52 2017. Bean counters don't think about those things... |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 28 10:38:26 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by BLE-NIMX on Wed Jun 28 08:41:52 2017. How would your automation have evacuated the derailed target and those stuck behind it?From press reports about yesterday's derailment: "We were just sitting there and no one tried to tell us over the intercom. We had no idea what was going on. Finally after 10 minutes the conductor gets on and she's like, 'We have a derailment, we're coming through the cars,'" Courougen said. Some riders pried open the doors and escaped into the tunnel, said Lhota, who added that riders should never do that. "We were sitting there for so long with no information, and as time went by there was more smoke in the car," Courougen said. "The not knowing was terrifying. As we were leaving there was an older gentleman who had a cane and he was waiting for medical personnel, and said, 'I think I need to go to the hospital.'" It does not appear that the presence of two redundant employees materially helped the situation in the immediate aftermath of the derailment. Another report: The impact of the derailment rippled through the line, stalling another 800 riders on nearby trains between the 110th Street (Cathedral Parkway) and 135th Street stations. Of those riders, about 500 decided to leave their trains and enter the tracks in what FDNY Commissioner Daniel Nigro described as a "self-evacuation." Passengers were evacuated from the derailed train, as well as three other trains, including one C and one D, that were also in the tunnel at the time, the MTA said. The fire and police departments conducted a joint operation – involving 300 responders – in order to round up the passengers and bring them above ground, Nigro said. "Thankfully we have the resources" to evacuate and treat people, Nigro added. At least 39 people suffered minor injuries, with 17 taken to area hospitals, the FDNY said. The evacuation was conducted by NYPD and FDNY - not the MTA. It would appear that the MTA's role was to keep the passengers calm until professional help arrived. This makes sense, if the evacuation required 300 personnel and there were only 2 on the train. Those 2 personnal did not do a good job of keeping passengers calm, in this instance. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 28 10:39:50 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Railman718 on Wed Jun 28 09:20:19 2017. Bean counters don't think about those things...Considering the chaos during yesterday's derailment, it would not appear that MTA Operations though about such things either. |
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Posted by Railman718 on Wed Jun 28 11:16:47 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 28 10:39:50 2017. Bean counters make decisions based on money...Different aspects of the company.. Nice try though. |
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Posted by Railman718 on Wed Jun 28 11:18:59 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 28 10:38:26 2017. Looks like somebody's lying because from what I'm seeing folks applauded the crew of that train... There are photos I seen of the crew assisting..Have you read the interview the train operator gave the daily news? Read it then get back to me... |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 28 11:33:49 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Railman718 on Wed Jun 28 11:18:59 2017. I've read the Daily News article.Unstated: 1. the interval between the derailment and an announcement to passengers by the motorman who kept calm. 2. who was the "we" who got everybody out? I cannot find an MTA employee assisting a passenger in the 23 photos. It's only FDNY and NYPD. I see plenty of MTA personnel examining the derailment consequences. That's not the same as evacuating passengers in a timely manner. |
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Posted by Railman718 on Wed Jun 28 11:39:39 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 28 11:33:49 2017. Then we aren't looking at the same pictures..Hey It happens fair enough .. We are trained to evacuate passengers it's our job. I have done it with a fire on a train I operated on as well.. I stand by my statement of the crew doing its job you believe what you want. |
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Posted by Shiznit1987 on Wed Jun 28 12:08:56 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Michael549 on Thu Jun 22 17:58:13 2017. NYC comptroller is an elected position. Berating a member of the public over their lack of infrastructure knowledge would have been all over the media and his career would have been over. The fact is that "pandering" is what democracy calls for, it's part and parcel of the system. |
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Posted by Shiznit1987 on Wed Jun 28 12:35:03 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by sloth on Mon Jun 26 20:29:56 2017. Do I understand those things? Yes. However, the alternative is economic sclerosis. Economies that prioritize job security over everything else ironically and tragically are the ones that fail to produce jobs over the long run. The MTA already gets buku amounts of funding and is at the breaking point. Personally, I'd stop short of mass layoffs but certainly suggest moving away from pension plans and having employees put more money into their healthcare. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 28 12:46:25 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Railman718 on Wed Jun 28 11:39:39 2017. Then we aren't looking at the same pictures..Here's a link to the 23 pictures, that I viewed. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/hundreds-evacuated-train-derails-125th-street-gallery-1.3281581?pmSlide=1.3281580 They are numbered from 1 to 23. In which ones do you see the train's T/O or C/R assisting passengers? In which ones do you see any MTA personnel assisting passengers? I hope the NTSB investigates this. Detailing the emergency response is one of the sections in all their reports. I'm also curious as to when the first 911 call came in and who made it. |
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Posted by Railman718 on Wed Jun 28 14:11:28 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 28 12:46:25 2017. So because you don't see them it didn't happen ok gotcha..Don't quit yer day job. |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Jun 28 14:27:26 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Railman718 on Wed Jun 28 08:02:39 2017. I agree about M/N and LIRR but also keep in mind that unlike the NYCT, the commuter RRs are governed by operating rules dictated by the FRA and the corresponding pay scales are a lot higher which is why they show up more frequently during investigations. On commuter RRs its not often as easy to get trains back to their home yards between rush hours as it is on the NYCTS so there is probably a bit more “reserve" time in their runs than we have WAA time on the NYCT. |
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Posted by Railman718 on Wed Jun 28 14:35:53 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by randyo on Wed Jun 28 14:27:26 2017. You can make money down here but you going to be on that train all day.. In the end you lose train always wins.. Ypou have folks down here now retiring then dropping dead not even a year after they leave. |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Wed Jun 28 16:27:16 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by randyo on Tue Jun 27 15:29:39 2017. I hate that "See Through NY" website.It's for civil servants who stalk other workers and media hounds looking for a non-story. Individual salaries should not be public record. |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Wed Jun 28 16:41:37 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Railman718 on Wed Jun 28 11:39:39 2017. have you seen any passenger selfies from the derailment?Or cellphone videos, especially on Youtube? A dedicated thread to all that should exist. |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jun 28 16:43:48 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Railman718 on Wed Jun 28 14:35:53 2017. The bottom line is our t/o's and c/r's spend much more time on the train in a work day than our commuter rail counterparts.No way do they miss lunch. No way they go "in and out". And who makes more per hour? |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Jun 28 16:47:24 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Jun 28 16:27:16 2017. If those salaries are a tax levy, they should be. |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Wed Jun 28 16:52:04 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Jun 28 16:47:24 2017. only the base pay needs to be known.How much OT a person works is not the public's business. |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Jun 28 17:28:59 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Jun 28 16:52:04 2017. OT, I will agree, is a very touchy issue.When I was on the job, I knew medics that made more money than some battalion chiefs did, all because of OT. There was always OT available, every day. I'd get calls at home on my RDO from your commanders looking to fill holes in the roster. There were people who were mad dogs for OT, who would pick up extra work on Staten Island, even if they lived in The Bronx. I'm sure it's the same thing down there in transit. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 28 17:52:04 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jun 28 16:43:48 2017. And who makes more per hour?Here's the 2015 NTD Data to the rescue. Hourly Wage for All Vehicle Operations Employees. LIRR: $38.08 NYCT: $39.83 MN: $44.15 our t/o's and c/r's spend much more time on the train in a work day than our commuter rail counterparts. Here's the 2015 NTD Data for that metric "# hrs";"# employees";"hrs/employee (calculated)" LIRR: 4,585,455; 2,133.00; 2149.8 NYCT: 21,558,334; 10,437.00; 2065.6 MN: 3,716,262; 1,625.00; 2286.9 Another urban legend shot? |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Wed Jun 28 17:56:45 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 28 17:52:04 2017. LOL!!! |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Wed Jun 28 18:02:03 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jun 28 16:43:48 2017. another issue facing NYCT is being demoted for sleep apnea.Years ago it was MNRR whose engineer crashed and blamed it on sleep apnea. This led to systemwide testing for apnea. But it will be NYCT staff who are disproportionately affected by the new testing. If the roles were reversed and it was NYCT who crashed and blamed apnea, it would not have resulted in systemwide testing and would be treated as a "subway issue". THIW |
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Posted by Railman718 on Wed Jun 28 18:14:44 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Jun 28 16:41:37 2017. No comment... |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Wed Jun 28 18:21:54 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Railman718 on Wed Jun 28 18:14:44 2017. but you did comment.and if you or anyone here finds social media videos and photos of the evacuation that would be great. |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Jun 28 18:27:22 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Jun 28 18:02:03 2017. Why would a medical condition result in demotion at NYCT?I used to know a M/M (That was the actual title then) who developed respiratory issues from breathing steel dust. They took him off the road, and sent him to work at the Museum. Of course, that was 35 years ago... |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jun 28 18:43:29 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 28 17:52:04 2017. You're telling me LIRR engineers make less per hour than a NYCT t/o; and a LIRR conductor makes less than a NYCT conductor?I'm not that gullible! And no mention of NYCT personnel barely having enough time to take a piss between trips unlike LIRR crews. |
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Posted by BLE-NIMX on Wed Jun 28 20:40:21 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 28 10:39:50 2017. Yet it sounds like you support the automated part of taking the crews off the trains. The one that made it to 125th street was evacuated rather quickly. Good Decisions required by management would have put evacuated all the other trains on the trains rather quickly to respective stations Without people waiting over an hour and evacuating themselves, same as they did during the blackout. At-least to crews were where they were supposed to be. Taking them off the training cant help the cause. Maybe forgetting that it supposed to be about the money and making it the way it used to be when it was actually run as a railroad, such as hiring back the trainmaster's would help them in the future |
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Posted by Railman718 on Wed Jun 28 20:57:57 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 28 17:52:04 2017. Looks like yer numbers are off let me help you...Train operator salary per hr now $35.36 hr... Train operator salary Feb 2018 with the "2.5 percent increase".. $36.25 an hr.. I would love to make 39 bucks a hr but folks like you would say I'm making 49 bucks an hr... Thanks for the laugh.. |
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Posted by Railman718 on Wed Jun 28 20:58:36 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jun 28 18:43:29 2017. Bill I handled mr" Out of touch"... |
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Posted by Railman718 on Wed Jun 28 20:59:26 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by BLE-NIMX on Wed Jun 28 20:40:21 2017. As I said bean counters don't think about those things... |
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Posted by Railman718 on Wed Jun 28 21:00:52 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Jun 28 18:02:03 2017. Luch sleep apnea isn't grounds for demotion unless you aren't complying with protocol...Where you get these tales from? |
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Posted by Railman718 on Wed Jun 28 21:01:52 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Jun 28 18:21:54 2017. No comment on what I find you know what I meant..You must not be in touch with yer classmates I guess since you are asking here... |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 28 21:10:04 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jun 28 18:43:29 2017. You're telling me LIRR engineers make less per hour than a NYCT t/o; and a LIRR conductor makes less than a NYCT conductor?I'm not that gullible! Here's a link to the NTD Database Table that contains that data. https://www.transit.dot.gov/sites/fta.dot.gov/files/Employees.xlsm What's the basis for your belief that you are underpaid in comparison to LIRR operating personnel? The numbers don't bear you out. LIRR conductors are paid to interact with the passengers. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 28 21:13:28 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Railman718 on Wed Jun 28 20:57:57 2017. Overtime is included in that cumulative hourly rate. That's obvious from the yearly hours worked. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 28 21:15:13 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Railman718 on Wed Jun 28 21:00:52 2017. sleep apnea...Sleep apnea was the basis for eliminating split shifts. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 28 21:29:27 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by BLE-NIMX on Wed Jun 28 20:40:21 2017. The various reports indicate that 10 to 20 minutes passed before there was any intercom message from the crew on the derailed train.At-least to crews were where they were supposed to be The reports of the train that made it to 125th St indicate that only the first car was evacuated. The other cars had to wait at least 20 minutes before the C/R made it through to unlock the storm doors. I suppose the C/R's proper post was to be locked up in her cab for 20 minutes before offering assistance. The evacuation was handled by 300 personnel from FDNY and NYPD. They weren't originally on the train. They appear to have responded to the emergency more quickly and in greater numbers than the MTA's on board personnel. |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Jun 28 21:35:33 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 26 21:33:46 2017. I don't agree with everything Karl Palachuk says, but he's a very bright and thoughtful guy. If anyone thinks that automated subway trains are ridiculous, look at what he has to say about something even more complex. Here's the salient quote from the linked article:"The most obvious industry that will disappear is related to automated vehicles. I argue that the entire trucking industry will disappear within ten years. That's not just truck drivers who will be replaced by driver-less cars. Truck stops won't be needed when truck drivers aren't human. No need for showers, truck stop hotel rooms, restaurants, or shops that sell cups, shirts, and truck-related chachkis. Gone. An entire industry and its infrastructure gone." Welcome to the 21st Century: You're Fired |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jun 28 21:48:41 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 28 21:10:04 2017. Never said t/o's were underpaid vs. LIRR engineers. I said they made more per hour. |
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Posted by BLE-NIMX on Wed Jun 28 21:49:16 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 28 21:29:27 2017. 4th and 5th cars were derailed, right? I can presume safely that either the conductor was injured or tending to injuries in that car because it was the conductors car involved. But I'm not referring to that train I'm referring to the ones that were stuck for an hour that had no unusual occurrences of that power off that's where management needs to be prevalent but your argument of taking the crew off the train would get nobody nowhere real fast Without managerial assistance. Perhaps nobody in management has been burned yet because people are frequently evacuating themselves off of delay trains, I'm just trying to figure out how you think that opto would make a better outfit which it can't Under circumstances like this |
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