|
|
| Re: HBLR Extension (1411054) | |
 |
|
| Home > SubChat | |
[ Post a New Response | Return to the Index ]
|
Page 2 of 4 |
||
|
| (1412438) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Oct 11 18:34:36 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Joe V on Thu Oct 6 07:46:56 2016. I'm no fan of rebuilding the PABT and expanding it either. I think there is a far better solution that tackles the problem at its core, and that's expanding rail service in NJ, but it requires expanding cross river capacity and terminal capacity in Manhattan. All a 7 train extension does is move the transfer point for the Hoboken division riders to Secaucus instead of Hoboken. For those who ride a bus into the PABT, it ends up adding a transfer to peoples commute who don't work along the 7. How is that better? Expanding commuter rail capacity into Manhattan takes strain off the XBL/PABT, PATH, and even certain subway lines depending on how it is implemented. |
|
|
| (1412439) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Oct 11 18:39:05 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Joe V on Sat Oct 8 07:23:16 2016. So basically you're suggesting SIers will ditch the existing one seat ride express buses to get on HBLR up and over the Bayonne Bridge, through Jersey City, to Hoboken, and connect to a 7 train, which still might not even take them to where they're working, meaning yet another transfer? Seriously? Even running the North Shore Branch up the NEC into NYP has a better chance of capturing riders. |
|
|
| (1412440) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Oct 11 18:41:00 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Joe V on Fri Oct 7 18:18:26 2016. I also agree that the state boundary nonsense needs to be dropped, but even without it, the 7 to Secaucus is a very poor band-aid solution that ultimately will make the commute more difficult for riders to currently take a bus into the PABT. |
|
|
(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
|
| (1412447) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Joe V on Tue Oct 11 19:10:38 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Oct 11 18:34:36 2016. The rail lines in general that you wish for simply do not exist to make much of a dent.The only rail expansion that would hit the bus market hard is MOM. West Trenton, Phillipsburg and the Lackawanna Cutoff to Pennsylvania would be small time, low ridership, and very slow, especially the first two. As it is, Raritan Line daily loadings west of Raritan to High Bridge is 290 - 300 people a day. Phillipsburg might get you a bus load more, which is why they cut it back in the first place - too far to go to fetch too few people. #7 train would intercept buses at Secaucus, former Erie trains, and NWK Division train passengers who wish to go to east 42nd Street area, and several blocksnorth and south of it, and avoid both Penn Station and Times Square transfers. The latter two have nothing whatever to do with Hoboken. But with a northern Hoboken intermediate #7 station and turning the 126 bus into a feeder itself would remove 7.44% of all the buses. Between 6 and 10 am, the 126 is 134 of the 1,800 total buses. What they have now is hardly a one seat ride - the 126 at rush hours is packed to the gills, which is not very comfortable, nor very safe, and very labor intensive. The new PABT requires a 10th Avenue station buildout, and the Jersey politicians and the PA all know that. For those not wanting the #7, they get their commuting times extended by walking to other subways from shifting the terminal an avenue block west and 1 - 2 street blocks south. |
|
|
| (1412448) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Joe V on Tue Oct 11 19:13:33 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Oct 11 18:39:05 2016. Their "one seat ride" express bus is part of the XBL problem, and they could well be taking a subway when they get to Manhattan anyway.The North Shore line will never see the NEC. And who is to say SI'ers don't work in Jersey City ? |
|
|
| (1412449) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Joe V on Tue Oct 11 19:18:34 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Oct 11 18:41:00 2016. When a ride from Exit 15X to PABT takes 40 minutes to an hour, and will continue to get worse, which can happen PM rush hour, or even at times on weekends, they will jump at the chance to be on the #7 to Times Square in 17 minutes.You need to think about the total commute time to one's desk at work or school, not just the bus to the Gate at PABT. The PA says (yes, some of us have met with one of the commissioners recently) 50% now take a subway when they reach Manhattan. The percentage will go way up if the move the terminal to the south and west. |
|
|
| (1412450) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Oct 11 19:20:54 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Joe V on Thu Oct 6 07:46:56 2016. They weren't planning a big schedule for MOM either, were they?And no, MOM would not be a "heavy hitter", even with the population of Lakewood (Lakehurst is rather low) and Jackson (on the eastern edge). Since NJT is still looking at Jamesburg as a primary study community, that's an admission by them that they are not serious. (Their page is way outdated, still mentioning "THE Tunnel".) |
|
|
| (1412451) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Joe V on Tue Oct 11 19:29:21 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Oct 11 18:28:38 2016. You can't look at this as an all or nothing situation. Nobody said to truncate all the buses at Secaucus. Some frequncies can go through, others will not. Let the market and surveys decide how the scheduling is done.In any case, minimizing trip time trumps number of transfers. Northern Virginia once had 33 "one seat bus" routes to DC. Now they have 3 because Metro got built. They bitched for a few months, they got over it, and eveyone is better off because of it. Ditto for Portland and MAX. The thru buses became train feeders. You can't keep stuffing Penn Station with more and more people. I think 650,00 per day is quite enough. There is not going to be any new rail tunnels to lower Manhattan, no more lower Montauk, no connecting ESA with Gateway, forget it. I have never been able to figure out mow many people ride each of the 4 weekday PATH routes. |
|
|
| (1412452) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Joe V on Tue Oct 11 19:31:24 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Oct 11 19:20:54 2016. Compared to the others, it would be. But no, other than Northern Branch and something to Gloucester, expect nothing more for the next 20 years. |
|
|
| (1412455) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by SI 93 on Tue Oct 11 19:49:32 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Joe V on Tue Oct 11 19:31:24 2016. What's the latest status or information on the MOM rail study? |
|
|
| (1412457) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Joe V on Tue Oct 11 19:51:24 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by SI 93 on Tue Oct 11 19:49:32 2016. I don't think much of anything in many years. |
|
|
| (1412477) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Oct 11 22:12:24 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Joe V on Tue Oct 11 19:29:21 2016. Perhaps a survey should be done of the existing bus riders which they would prefer before a decision is made. Either way, it still doesn't address the issue of capacity which is the only thing that will allow the rail system in NJ to expand so there can be less dependency on the bus network. And if folks are pitching the idea of a Center City type thru tunnel, I can pitch connecting ESA with Gateway. Doing that could also redistribute the amount of people using Penn Station and GCT, but a study would have to be done to determine exactly how. It would certainly take pressure off the E train though, and the 7 and Shuttle would see less crowding because of folks being redirected from the PABT to both NYP and GCT.Not to be a dick, but the mentality of "forget it, it won't happen" is exactly why we're going to end up with a half assed band-aid solution to the problem instead of really making the investment we need to in order to bring our infrastructure up to a level that can meet the current and future demand of our region |
|
|
| (1412478) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Oct 11 22:16:54 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Joe V on Tue Oct 11 19:13:33 2016. No one is saying SIers don't work is JC. That's why the 144 used to do as well as it did and it's why the S89 exists. But to believe that SIers are going to sit down and let their one seat ride get replaced with a slow HBLR ride to Hoboken just to have to transfer to the 7 or PATH, and possibly have to transfer again to finally reach their destination is laughable. And I highly doubt many SIers who rides the express bus are making a subway connection considering the fact that the express buses already make an array of stops throughout Manhattan along the avenues and streets they traverse. Yes, the express buses that operate via NJ do contribute to the crowding on the XBL, but punishing that by handing people who already have some of the longest commutes in the region with an even longer commute is no solution at all. |
|
|
| (1412480) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Oct 11 22:28:36 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Joe V on Tue Oct 11 19:18:34 2016. I am considering the time it takes to reach the actual destination, not sure why you think otherwise. And again, I'm strongly against building an expanded PABT, and even more so against moving it away from it's current location. 2 parts of the reason it takes 40mins to hour to reach the PABT from 15X are because1. Too many buses bringing people in, many of which could be replaced (partially or entirely) by rail service 2. Too many people driving because mass transit isn't convenient for them. Again, an issue that could be softened by an improved infrastructure. And before you say park and ride at Secaucus, all that is going to do is move the bottleneck to Secaucus. And then you have the additional issue in the PM of buses having to park in NJ and deadhead in. This also needs to be addressed by developing a bus parking facility near the PABT. If rail capacity could be expanded, the rail network could be expanded. If the rail network could be expanded, then number of buses operating in the PABT/XBL could be reduced (and fewer cars driving into Manhattan as well), with only areas that have no other option retaining heavy bus service. If the number of buses operating into the PABT/XBL and cars driving into Manhattan could be reduced, you'd have less of a backup getting into the tunnel and PABT, and if you have less of a backup, you have a shorter travel time. You also then have a PABT that doesn't need to be replaced, but rather is able to efficiently serve the bus routes that need to exist. |
|
|
| (1412482) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Oct 11 22:46:25 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Joe V on Tue Oct 11 19:10:38 2016. West Trenton wasn't even one on my radar. Phillipsburg also agreeable doesn't do much, but a service from Allentown that operates express once reaching NJ could put a dent in Transbridge. Lackawanna Cutoff also can knock out a chunk of Martz service and the other smaller Pocono operators. The ones that can really do damage though are:1. Atlantic Highlands - Academy is running 10 minute headways on Rt 36. 2. West Shore/Northern Branch - Red & Tan, NJT, and Rockland Coaches all run this entire area 3. Rebuilding the line along Rt 17 between Middletown and and Central Valley - Shortline's service through here is mind boggling The last 2 would mean getting a tunnel into lower Manhattan, but getting that accomplished opens the door for other Hoboken division branches to operate into Manhattan as well. That knocks out a chunk of bus routes (reduced service at the very least) along the Main, Bergen, PVL, and Port Jervis as well as the 2 previously mentioned new services. |
|
|
| (1412498) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Joe V on Wed Oct 12 07:09:08 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Oct 11 22:12:24 2016. They did such a survey, but asked them the wrong question to get the desired answer. They asked how many want to switch to NJT Rail at Secaucus and head to Penn Sation. Of course they said no.No mention of #7 or Gateway's additional trains. Hell will freeze over before ESA would be extended to the west side. LIRR will not share it, their 8 track capacity is spoken for, and nothing but a flat top, 3rd rail EMU with a 12'10" roof height will fit through 63rd Street tunnel. The E train is misery. I did that commute some years ago. The platform at 34th Street is narrow, the back half of the train gets stuffed, then the PABT passengers then have difficulty getting on at 42nd. So I can envision NJ Bus people working east of 5th and in the fringe area of 47th-50th street taking the #7 rather than the E. I also used to work along 3rd AVvnue at 46th and at 50th Streets. Some LIRR people went to Hunterspoint, others went to Penn. |
|
|
| (1412499) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Joe V on Wed Oct 12 07:22:43 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Oct 11 22:46:25 2016. NS just told Amtrak (nicely) to go eff themselves with any service on the former LV RR. NJT has trackage rights to P-Burg, but not beyond. SO - to get across, one would have to pay NS a ransom for capacity expansion.Now - as far as people riding it goes, an express train would get caught up with RVL locals, you'd have to fill a 6 car train of MLV cars to justify it, and there are only 22 Trans Bridge and 8 Carl Beiber buses doing the I-78 run to begin with. Most cars on I-78 turnover as they pass through Somerset and Hunterdon Counties. so the rail market just isn't there. IOW, most Manhattan commuter from I-78 in Pennsylvania are already on buses, and that market is not that much - about 1.7% of the total bus volume. Ditto for I-80 and Martz. They have about 33 buses. Most cars passing through the Water Gap tolls are headed for north Jersey jobs. A Cutoff train would have its uses, with feeder buses to office parks in the sprawl, even though it would be slow, but would not do much harm to Martz. I'd rather go after Hudson County, which is the most densely populated, and has a much higher percentage of Manhattan workers than other counties. Commuter and Intercity rail plans such as Gateway does absolutely nothing for them. Other than Northern Branch lRT to Englewood, your items 1, 2, and 3 are not on anybody's radar screen. |
|
|
| (1412500) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Joe V on Wed Oct 12 07:24:12 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Oct 11 22:16:54 2016. I was not thinking in terms of getting ride of MTA buses through the XBL. But HBLRT to SI has its own regional benefits, and I think would be a hell of a lot more successful than the S89. |
|
|
| (1412501) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Joe V on Wed Oct 12 07:30:39 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Oct 11 22:28:36 2016. Expect HUGE opposition by Manhattan Community Board #4 (yes, we have met with them several times and they have influence) to any NJ bus barns in Manhattan. They want ratables, they don't want their exhaust fumes, and certainly no more real estate handed over to bus operations.What is ironic is while NJT has done 2 restructurings of bus gate assignments in PABT to improve shabby OTP, one of the things they did in the first round was to reduce the dwell time buses spend in the PM rush in the terminal. In other words, they get a later start out of their bus barns on the Jersey side for their schedule PABT departure. Taking the risk of arriving late is better than arriving early from deadheading in and congesting the place while they wait around to leave. |
|
|
| (1412515) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Oct 12 10:24:35 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Joe V on Tue Oct 11 19:18:34 2016. Why would someone take a 40-minute bus ride from 15X to PABT when they can take a 14-minute train ride to NYP? I didn't even know there were buses to PABT from there, and can't see why there would be. Exit 15X was built to service the Secaucus train station, originally "Secaucus Transfer", so the only public transit from there to Manhattan should be the train. |
|
|
| (1412516) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by AlM on Wed Oct 12 10:41:08 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Oct 12 10:24:35 2016. ???I think he is talking about a bus ride from anywhere to the south. The last few miles from 15X to PABT can take a long time. it's not that the bus stops at 15X. |
|
|
| (1412517) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Joe V on Wed Oct 12 11:14:03 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Oct 12 10:24:35 2016. The NJT trains to NY are pretty crowded.A small bus terminal has been built there. It can be expanded upon. |
|
|
| (1412518) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Joe V on Wed Oct 12 11:15:09 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by AlM on Wed Oct 12 10:41:08 2016. My point was the time it takes from the pass-by of Exit 15X on the Tpke to PABT. |
|
|
| (1412520) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Oct 12 12:16:10 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Joe V on Wed Oct 12 11:15:09 2016. Yeah, I misunderstood. Sorry. |
|
|
| (1412526) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Oct 12 13:57:05 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Andrew Saucci on Sun Oct 2 19:09:01 2016. I always get gas in NJ. I save $40-$50 a week. |
|
|
| (1412527) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Oct 12 13:58:53 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Oct 2 17:52:47 2016. Does that include electrification? |
|
|
| (1412529) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Oct 12 14:01:59 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Oct 12 13:57:05 2016. You won't be saving all that money anymore. |
|
|
| (1412532) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Joe V on Wed Oct 12 15:47:37 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Oct 12 13:57:05 2016. By Nov 1, expect that to go down to perhaps $10 a week. |
|
|
| (1412549) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Oct 12 19:09:42 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Oct 12 13:57:05 2016. That's going away. |
|
|
| (1412552) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Oct 12 19:43:30 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Oct 12 14:01:59 2016. Today,regular gasoline in Paramus, NJ is about $2/gallon on Route 17. I figure the price to be about $2.25, or so, after this gas tax raise. |
|
|
| (1412555) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Oct 12 20:48:07 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Oct 12 14:01:59 2016. I know. It sucks. |
|
|
| (1412556) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Oct 12 20:51:11 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Oct 12 19:43:30 2016. I've been paying $1.91-$1.99 in Ft. Lee. |
|
|
| (1412571) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Oct 12 23:04:40 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Oct 12 13:58:53 2016. Yes. But the price is still way too high.Over in Europe, they spend less than half that per mile for brand new high-speed railroads, and this is light-railing an existing right of way. |
|
|
| (1412578) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu Oct 13 00:46:20 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Oct 12 19:43:30 2016. $2.25 is pretty high. The rate in Saratoga right now is $2.19, and that's Sunoco and Mobil. |
|
|
| (1412623) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Oct 13 13:30:07 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu Oct 13 00:46:20 2016. I guess we will have to see what happens. |
|
|
| (1412640) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Thu Oct 13 17:28:50 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Oct 12 14:01:59 2016. Maybe as a bone to motorists, the state should allow self service at the pump like NY. |
|
|
| (1412648) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by WillD on Thu Oct 13 18:12:28 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Oct 12 20:48:07 2016. Yeah, paying for necessities sucks. Stupid fiscal coservatism! |
|
|
| (1412675) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu Oct 13 21:08:46 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by randyo on Thu Oct 13 17:28:50 2016. Nooo, I wish NY had mandatory full serve; on cold days not having to get out of the car is awesome!There (briefly) was full serve at ShopRite in Albany, until they realized they weren't in NJ and didn't need to. There is also an independent gas station that uses no-name gas and charges a full dollar/gallon more than anyone else. |
|
|
| (1412676) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Oct 13 21:33:33 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by randyo on Thu Oct 13 17:28:50 2016. Randy, that self-service equipment is very expensive and you still need somebody to take the money inside. It's cheaper to hire the gas jockeys off the boat! |
|
|
| (1412687) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Oct 13 22:12:31 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu Oct 13 21:08:46 2016. I wish NY had mandatory full serveDo you? Then you can see your gas prices go up even more thanks to more labor costs. And it'll take forever to wait to fill up. |
|
|
| (1412688) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Oct 13 22:19:24 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Oct 13 22:12:31 2016. IAWTP |
|
|
| (1412689) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Oct 13 22:19:52 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by randyo on Thu Oct 13 17:28:50 2016. AWESOME POST! |
|
|
| (1412690) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by TerrApin Station on Thu Oct 13 22:21:42 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu Oct 13 21:08:46 2016. ???? |
|
|
| (1412693) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Oct 13 22:23:09 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Oct 13 21:33:33 2016. It's the exact same pump! They don't make special "full service only" pumps.Many gas stations have a convenience mart with a cashier who doesn't pump gas. In 48 states, that's the guy who rings up the cash purchases. |
|
|
| (1412694) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Oct 13 22:23:46 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by TerrApin Station on Thu Oct 13 22:21:42 2016. IAWYP |
|
|
| (1412696) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu Oct 13 22:25:30 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by TerrApin Station on Thu Oct 13 22:21:42 2016. When it's -13 out, I'd much rather not leave the car to go pump gas. With full serve, you don't have to. And unless it's mandatory, most places won't do it. |
|
|
| (1412697) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by TerrApin Station on Thu Oct 13 22:26:29 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Oct 12 20:51:11 2016. So then how are you saving 40 cents per gallon? |
|
|
| (1412698) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by TerrApin Station on Thu Oct 13 22:28:38 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Oct 12 13:57:05 2016. You'd have to be driving 2500 miles per week. How many cars were you including? |
|
|
| (1412699) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by TerrApin Station on Thu Oct 13 22:29:15 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Oct 13 22:23:09 2016. Haha! Iawtp. |
|
|
| (1412702) | |
Re: HBLR Extension |
|
|
Posted by TerrApin Station on Thu Oct 13 22:31:46 2016, in response to Re: HBLR Extension, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu Oct 13 22:25:30 2016. I don't like the extreme cold either but I hate Full Serve waaay more.You'd be willing to put up with full serve the whole rest of the year for just the few days when it is that cold that you need to get gas??? |
|
|
|
Page 2 of 4 |
||
