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| (1380529) | |
R179 Delivery Date? |
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Posted by Bzuck on Sat Jan 9 19:21:31 2016 Does anyone know the latest delivery date for the R179? |
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Re: R179 Delivery Date? |
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Posted by bzuck on Sun Jan 10 09:32:28 2016, in response to R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Bzuck on Sat Jan 9 19:21:31 2016. I received the following email from Jennifer Lee. I don't know why she answered privately rather than here?There is currently NO set delivery dates for the above mentioned cars, since Bombardier is in bankruptcy, and is looking for a buyer for its Bombardier Transportation division, which previously built their R62A, R110B & R142's in the past along with the M7/7A, and Comet commuter fleets in the past. Since this contract was awarded back on March 24, 2012, no cars have been produced due to this bankruptcy. Remember the defunct GMC truck & Coach, Flxible, Orion, St Louis Car, ACF, Budd, Rohr & Pullman Standard ???? Just as an update, NO new cars have been built until a buyer for Bombardier's Transportation division is found. According to the latest updates, Bombardier's corporate officers are negotiating with Changchun Locomotive Works of the Peoples Republic of China to purchase its transportation division, after which if the MTA agrees with same, then maybe production will commence on these R179 subway cars. Actually the first R179's should have been delivered commencing October 2014. But that date has come and gone. If this is true we won't be seeing R179 for quite a long time! |
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Re: R179 Delivery Date? |
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Posted by r33/r36 mainline on Sun Jan 10 09:38:44 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by bzuck on Sun Jan 10 09:32:28 2016. Bombardier had supposedly built the plot train for the 179s already but the TA didn't like how the train was wielded or something along those lines, so back to the drawing board it was... |
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Re: R179 Delivery Date? |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Jan 10 10:02:30 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Sun Jan 10 09:38:44 2016. Too bad TTC's cars are 4" too fat for us. Some of their later H class cars could be re-gauged to run here. |
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Re: R179 Delivery Date? |
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Posted by R2ChinaTown on Sun Jan 10 12:19:04 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Joe V on Sun Jan 10 10:02:30 2016. Would they also run on our track voltage? Would they also work with our signal system? Are platform heights compatible? |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Jan 10 12:51:05 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by R2ChinaTown on Sun Jan 10 12:19:04 2016. I think so to all 3, but it is a moot point. Wikipedia says every single H5 and H6 car was cut up in 2014 and 2015, the former held till the past August for a failed sale to a South American system. The H6's were only built in the late 1980's. |
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Posted by pragmatist on Sun Jan 10 13:26:57 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Joe V on Sun Jan 10 12:51:05 2016. I know that Bombardier has been in severe financial distress, drowning in red ink from the C-series project, and has been desperately trying spinoffs and asset sales to survive, but I was not aware that they had actually filed to start a bankruptcy proceeding either in Canada or the US. Does anyone have any details? |
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Re: R179 Delivery Date? |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Jan 10 15:26:36 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by pragmatist on Sun Jan 10 13:26:57 2016. Wikipedia says this:In May 2015, the parent company Bombardier Inc. announced that it intended to split or spin-off Bombardier Transportation as a separate publicly traded company, while retaining control as the majority owner.[25] Lutz Bertling, president and CEO of Bombardier Transportation stated that a primary motivation for the sell off was increase the company's financial flexibility, for potential acquisitions or consolidations, allowing the company to better compete with an anticipated Chinese presence in the European market.[26] An IPO was planned for late 2015.[27] In late 2015 the public investor Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec (CDPQ) acquired a 1.5 billion USD state in Bombardier Transportation in the form of a bond/equity hybrid, with the shares returned to CDPQ dependent on the financial performance of the company. The investment initially representing a 30% stake - a valuation of $5 billion. The sale was required in part to continue the financing of the parent company's C-Series jet, a major cause of a $4.6billion loss for the parent company in 2015.[28][29] |
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Re: R179 Delivery Date? |
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Posted by Bzuck on Sun Jan 10 15:31:16 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Joe V on Sun Jan 10 15:26:36 2016. I am beginning to wonder if we will EVER see any R179's on the property? |
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Re: R179 Delivery Date? |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Jan 10 15:41:03 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Bzuck on Sun Jan 10 15:31:16 2016. We are not alone.Toronto won't get the trolley cars until years overdue, nor Montreal their AZUR subway cars, and WMATA 7K's are slow, late, and defective in coming. CAF has proven pretty useless with Viewliner deliveries to Amtrak, and Nippon-Sharyo order for bi-level cars for the Midweast and California Amtrak serice is all but dead. The first car flunked its FRA structural test so badly, the car was ruined, according to an eyewitness "rivets flying like bullets" during the compression test, so the HSR money may be forfeited and returned to US-DOT. Only the CTA seems to be smooth sailing with its 5K car deliveries from BBD. |
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Re: R179 Delivery Date? |
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Posted by pragmatist on Sun Jan 10 15:42:19 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Joe V on Sun Jan 10 15:26:36 2016. Thanks, I've seen that article, but an earlier poster had mentioned bankruptcy, since (in the US, I don't know about Canada) a bankruptcy court can abrogate contracts, it would be a much more difficult scenario. This isn't good, and there is still a very significant chance they will file, but I haven't seen anything that says they already have. |
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Re: R179 Delivery Date? |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Jan 10 15:46:16 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by pragmatist on Sun Jan 10 15:42:19 2016. They are still pumping out CTA subway cars.I don't know if they completed all 55 MARC MLV cars. |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Jan 10 15:52:30 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Joe V on Sun Jan 10 15:41:03 2016. "The previously announced placement of a minority stake in Bombardier Transportation is progressing well.Following the placement, Bombardier Transportation will continue to be controlled by Bombardier Inc. and consolidated in our financial results. " from http://ir.bombardier.com/modules/misc/documents/51/01/11/53/14/Bombardier-Quarterly-Report-Q3-2015-en.pdf |
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Posted by milantram on Sun Jan 10 18:52:48 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by bzuck on Sun Jan 10 09:32:28 2016. Bombardier's situation affects not only the R179s but new cars for BART as well. |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Jan 10 19:03:47 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by milantram on Sun Jan 10 18:52:48 2016. Gotta smile at the aircraft segment being the money pit while the railcar division books orders. |
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Re: R179 Delivery Date? |
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Posted by Jace on Sun Jan 10 19:19:29 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by bzuck on Sun Jan 10 09:32:28 2016. This is just so, so wrong. Look for the pilots later this year. |
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Re: R179 Delivery Date? |
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Posted by Jace on Sun Jan 10 19:35:36 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Joe V on Sun Jan 10 15:41:03 2016. Do you have any sources that you can provide for all this doom and gloom with details on exactly why some of these orders are late (as in who is responsible)? I'm especially interested in that Nippon Sharyo quote. Not a lot of rivets that I know of on those cars.The CTA 5000s were all delivered some six months ago. There were big time issues with that project early on. |
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Re: R179 Delivery Date? |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Jan 10 20:51:37 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Jace on Sun Jan 10 19:35:36 2016. About Nippon Sharyo, you can go look at news items from the FRA test. The body shell essentially collapsed. Whether welds, rivets or both, they FAILED. Within a week, most of the workers were laid off. Not much water left in that glass. |
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Re: R179 Delivery Date? |
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Posted by Jace on Sun Jan 10 21:45:05 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Jan 10 20:51:37 2016. Collapsed? How about a link with some photos.They failed a test, one of several structural tests, something not unheard of - I can readily think of two other recent projects that went through the same. The layoffs came only partly as a result of the testing problem; it's not like people were let go the day after the test. |
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Re: R179 Delivery Date? |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Jan 10 23:08:32 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Jace on Sun Jan 10 21:45:05 2016. try google.Nippon Sharyo prototype fails test, workers laid off | Trains ... trn.trains.com › News › News Wire Trains Sep 4, 2015 - ROCHELLE, Ill. — Nippon Sharyo is laying off workers at the plant assembling bilevel passenger cars after a prototype failed key safety tests. UPDATE: Nippon Sharyo Temporarily Lays Off 60 Workers www.wifr.com/.../Nippon-Sharyo-to-Lay-Off-Nearly-100-Worker... WIFR Sep 30, 2015 - UPDATE: ROCHELLE (WIFR) – Nippon Sharyo has announced even more temporary reductions in its Final ... In fact the car has failed 3 times. TRAINS Magazine: Nippon Sharyo prototype fails test ... ccrail.com/trains-magazine-nippon-sharyo-prototype-fails-test-workers-l... TRAINS Magazine: Nippon Sharyo prototype fails test, workers laid off for Next Gen bi-level passenger cars. September 4, 2015 ... Nippon Sharyo puts 100 workers at Rochelle, Illinois plant ... ccrail.com/nippon-sharyo-puts-100-workers-at-rochelle-plant-on-hiatus/ Sep 4, 2015 - Nippon Sharyo puts 100 workers at Rochelle, Illinois plant on hiatus ... TRAINS Magazine: Nippon Sharyo prototype fails test, workers laid off ... Bilevel car for CA/IL/MI/MO trains flunks test - Trainorders.com www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3834735 Train Orders Sep 4, 2015 - 21 posts As a result of the failure, Nippon Sharyo, the carbuilder, is laying off 98 workers. It i |
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Re: R179 Delivery Date? |
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Posted by pragmatist on Mon Jan 11 06:30:37 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Jan 10 23:08:32 2016. It makes sense, the car failed, they have to identify the root cause, engineer and test and solutions, get it approved, and receive go ahead to proceed from the consortium before they can go into production. Why would they want to pay people during that time if they can get away without it? |
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Re: R179 Delivery Date? |
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Posted by Jace on Mon Jan 11 09:43:13 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Jan 10 23:08:32 2016. Test failure yes, but I don't see anything credible about a 'collapsed' carshell with rivets flying all over the place.These tests are supposed to confirm the design meets the spec. They are usually more or less a formality. To get to the actual test, you go through many design and structural model reviews all of which must be approved by the customer before beginning the testing. Something obviously went wrong here first. Perhaps the layoffs also had something to do with this failed process? |
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Posted by pragmatist on Mon Jan 11 09:54:44 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Jace on Mon Jan 11 09:43:13 2016. Why employ production staff if you are not going into production. It is sad, but not unrealistic. |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 11 17:31:44 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Jace on Sun Jan 10 19:35:36 2016. Let's leave it at this: I know people who took a Beech Grove shop tour a few months ago, and that is what they were told. I can't name names. |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 11 17:33:56 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Jace on Mon Jan 11 09:43:13 2016. When the money has to be returned to FRA, you may believe us. |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 11 17:50:48 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Jace on Sun Jan 10 21:45:05 2016. Do you actually think Nippon-Sharyo is going to post photos of their collossal failure ? |
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Posted by The silence on Mon Jan 11 18:37:11 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Jace on Sun Jan 10 19:19:29 2016. Do we even know where that information came from?Bomb and Alstom just signed a contract for new trains with the Belgian railways. Then there are the trains for Crossrail. |
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Posted by R30A on Mon Jan 11 19:07:05 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 11 17:33:56 2016. I doubt it will be. |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 11 19:14:45 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by R30A on Mon Jan 11 19:07:05 2016. There is a hard deadline to delivery equipment for some date in 2017, (forgot what it was) and that's it. Could depend on who will be in the White House also.The car design is so fucked up, it is not a minor tweak to make it right. They are not duplicates of the Surliner/California cars - N-S cut corners and relied on computer software to design it. |
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Posted by Jace on Tue Jan 12 09:47:19 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 11 17:50:48 2016. I guess you've seen the car then. Been to Rochelle recently? Have they rehired the workers they laid off?If it's such a colossal failure, what does that say about whoever reviewed and approved the design and the FEA prior to the start of testing? |
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Posted by Jace on Tue Jan 12 10:13:59 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 11 19:14:45 2016. This stuff happens, you don't claim default and then rebid the contract adding another 3-4 years to the schedule. What you do is work out a solution and then make them pay any late delivery penalties already in the contract.And no, you don't design a car on a drafting table any more. For the last 20 years or so it's all been done on computers including the structural modeling. It's a time consuming and detailed process but it's not like they've never done this before; they have two recent FRA compliant designs under their belt. |
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Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Tue Jan 12 10:28:39 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Jan 10 23:08:32 2016. WTF is wrong w/ Nippon-Sharyo?!?Hard to believe they are the same company who built these great cars: 
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Re: R179 Delivery Date? |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Jan 12 10:32:09 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 11 19:14:45 2016. I believe the hard deadline is for payment, not delivery. I fully expect something will be worked out. |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jan 12 14:56:34 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 11 17:33:56 2016. What would the FRA have do do with rapid transit cars? |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 12 17:52:44 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Jace on Tue Jan 12 10:13:59 2016. They built Gallery cars for Chicago, which are basically replicas of what has been done since 1949.But they decided to cut corners on the Surfliner car, the order is essentially ruined, and the clock is ticking. The assembly line workers are gone. The project managers have been fired and sent back to Japan. FRA is not interested in late payments, but in clawing back their unused HSR funding. |
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Re: R179 Delivery Date? |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 12 17:53:56 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by randyo on Tue Jan 12 14:56:34 2016. We are talking about intercity bi-level cars for a midwest consortium and California, not rapid transit cars. |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 12 17:56:19 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Jace on Tue Jan 12 09:47:19 2016. No and No. I have contacts in the midwest who have. You do not.Understand this: there is no assembly line for these cars, there are no assembly line workers, and there are no project managers. |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Jan 12 18:18:57 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 12 17:52:44 2016. The FRA has no interest whatsoever in rescinding the funding. They will make it work, |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 12 18:36:29 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by R30A on Tue Jan 12 18:18:57 2016. Time will tell. It may be Donald Trumps FRA by then. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Jan 12 18:44:39 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 12 17:56:19 2016. How do you know that he does not?? |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 12 19:11:45 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Jan 12 18:44:39 2016. Because he would not be in such denial of what has gone on there. |
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Posted by Jace on Tue Jan 12 19:56:48 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 12 17:56:19 2016. No contacts, really? That's news to me. Want to know a good place to eat in Rochelle? (hint: there are none)I have never heard of a project with no project manager. Project managers change, sometimes many times on a single project or sometimes not. While that's not a good gauge of project success, for sure there is a project manager just as there are people left in the plant, at least the minimum to keep things moving. Your world is falling apart contacts have their point of view and I have mine. I know what I saw there. In general I tend to have more trust in the carbuilders especially on things they do all the time, like design and build carshells. Nippon is a very capable builder who put a lot of money into their plant. If you ever get there you'll see that they didn't mess around. I do however think that they made a mistake by putting it in Illinois since they have to contend with very fickle and often vengeful politicians. I believe that's playing a role in how the news is coming out. |
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Re: R179 Delivery Date? |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Jan 12 21:02:27 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Jace on Tue Jan 12 19:56:48 2016. own3d |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Jan 12 21:03:27 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 12 19:11:45 2016. He's not in denial. He's telling you like it is. So the answer is you have no idea whether or not he has no contacts. So you shouldn't be saying anything like that. You're being way too cocky and it makes it very easy to believe him over you. |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jan 12 21:21:26 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 12 17:53:56 2016. OK. |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Jan 13 08:56:08 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Jace on Tue Jan 12 19:56:48 2016. That is all theoretical jibberish.This is not like CAF and BBD slow in deliveries - there is nothing being produced, or any solutions in sight for these cars. |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Jan 13 09:01:50 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Jan 12 21:03:27 2016. As usual, you have nothing to contribute, know nothing, and are merely choosing sides. I really don't care what you believe and I know I am right. |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Jan 13 09:23:03 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Jace on Tue Jan 12 19:56:48 2016. This is the infor that was sent to me in November I am NOT the author). There have been no updates since:The funding for the entire order was by Federal stimulus funds which must be spent by October 2017. That's actual SPENDING. The checks must be cut; allocation or appropriation doesn't count. At a meeting in recent weeks with the FRA, Nippon Sharyo executives and State representatives is reported to have concluded that given the catastrophic failure of the prototype,completion of the order by the deadline for spending of the stimulus funds will be difficult if not impossible. An announcement was expected but did not materialize. The source verified the severity of the FRA test failure. "Rivets were flying like bullets," he said. He confirmed: the carbody was destroyed. There also has been evidence that fabrication has been shoddy; key parts, both structural (framing) and entire carsides, did not fit with the underbody and roof, with as much discrepancy as 1 1/4 inches. Production has been stopped; no major work is going on now. Several key Nippon Sharyo execs have been terminated. |
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Re: R179 Delivery Date? |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Jan 13 09:56:12 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Joe V on Wed Jan 13 09:23:03 2016. lol |
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Re: R179 Delivery Date? |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Jan 13 09:59:37 2016, in response to Re: R179 Delivery Date?, posted by Joe V on Wed Jan 13 09:01:50 2016. As usual, you have nothing to contribute, know nothing, and are merely choosing sides.No. But even if you were right, which you're not, it doesn't change anything that I said, which is: "He's not in denial. He's telling you like it is. So the answer is you have no idea whether or not he has no contacts. So you shouldn't be saying anything like that. You're being way too cocky and it makes it very easy to believe him over you." I really don't care what you believe and I know I am right.And how has that worked out for you in the past? Should I provide a link as an example of how you are sometimes wrong? Here's one for starters: Re: [VIDEO]: R46 on the G (1367042) |
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