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| Re: Myrtle Avenue El (1343500) | |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Mar 25 08:15:10 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Mar 24 15:50:21 2015. So you don't disagree that you are a bigot? |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 25 09:25:32 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by AlM on Wed Mar 25 07:45:19 2015. Tear down the Astoria El!!!!!!!!:) |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 25 09:29:17 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 25 07:48:33 2015. Yes, the late 60's. The same time they were rallying to tear down the Myrtle El.And the "white people" couldn't stop the LIE from going through Maspeth and the rest of lily white Queens either. And yes, the Cross Bronx was built through the Bronx in the 50's, when it was still white. Your attempt to use the expressways as a similarity to the Myrtle Elis a fail |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 25 09:36:21 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 25 09:29:17 2015. The LIE and CBE were built in the 50s. Completely different political environment. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 25 13:41:29 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 25 09:36:21 2015. Still through white neighborhoods. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 25 13:46:10 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 25 13:41:29 2015. And? That doesn't prove anything. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 25 14:45:04 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 25 13:46:10 2015. Nor does an "el" removed from a Black neighborhood prove anything. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Mar 25 16:26:14 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Edwards! on Mon Mar 23 10:47:32 2015. The transit wasteland, before or after the riots? We forgot all about them, now didn't we? |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Mar 25 16:27:43 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Mar 25 08:15:10 2015. Terp, I don't give 2 shits what you think of me! |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by bklynsubwaybob on Wed Mar 25 18:29:45 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Wed Mar 25 06:34:03 2015. True. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Mar 25 18:54:50 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Wed Mar 25 06:34:03 2015. However, although the 3 Av el technically had no replacement, there was a subway on Lexington Av parallel to the 3 Av route that served that approximate corridor. Myrtle had no comparable route nearby. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed Mar 25 19:10:14 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by randyo on Wed Mar 25 18:54:50 2015. Don't forget, they expected the Second Avenue Subway would be opening aaaannny day now. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Mar 25 19:25:15 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Wed Mar 25 06:34:03 2015. "the 3rd avenue el in Manhattan was also torn down without a replacement."The 3d Ave EL was taken down without any regard for the passengers it inconvenienced nor concern about a subway replacement. It was strictly a real estate killing wheras real estate developers were all over city hall to rid 3d ave of the El so property values would skyrocket, which they did. Makes me wonder how much $$$ went under the table from realtors to City Hall folks. If the Mayor or BOT official of the day had any degree of honesty, or a set of balls,they would have stood up to anyone who had to be stood up to & said that the EL stays up until a subway is built, the El might still be up to this day. I guess the envelopes were very thick |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by VictorM on Wed Mar 25 21:01:35 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by randyo on Wed Mar 25 18:54:50 2015. Also they lengthened the local platforms on Lex Av to accommodate 10 car trains to handle the extra passengers from the 3rd Av el, but I doubt it gave them the additional capacity they needed. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by bklynsubwaybob on Wed Mar 25 21:08:22 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Mar 25 19:25:15 2015. stuffed to the point of exploding. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by gp38/r42 CHRIS on Wed Mar 25 21:21:47 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by VictorM on Wed Mar 25 21:01:35 2015. They did that on all the it lines |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by gp38/r42 CHRIS on Wed Mar 25 21:25:55 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by gp38/r42 CHRIS on Wed Mar 25 21:21:47 2015. Argh...autocorrect!! All the IRT lines |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Mar 26 01:01:58 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue Mar 24 20:29:25 2015. How would you know if there was or wasn't?As I said, my grandparents and parents were OUT THERE in the streets, Fighting for those neighborhoods,its understructure,and its neighbors. I don't remember seeing you marching down Bushwick ave,Broadway, or any other street. Were you even around in sixty nine? , |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Mar 26 01:08:23 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Wed Mar 25 06:34:03 2015. Well..certain people just happen to live within the confines of reality...and refuse to allow folks like you,unequiped with knowledge of true events,to brush over or rewrite history to better suit Your needs. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Mar 26 01:10:27 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Nilet on Tue Mar 24 20:21:42 2015. The housing projects were part of the model cities plan... |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Thu Mar 26 05:21:06 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Edwards! on Thu Mar 26 01:01:58 2015. That's wonderful, but unfortunately it wasn't widespread. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Thu Mar 26 05:23:04 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Edwards! on Thu Mar 26 01:10:27 2015. And unfortunately a big mistake. Destroying the heart and scale of entire neighborhoods |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Thu Mar 26 05:24:34 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Edwards! on Thu Mar 26 01:08:23 2015. Unfortunately its not me trying to sugarcoat what hapoened |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Mar 26 07:24:00 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by jan k. lorenzen on Wed Mar 18 14:45:31 2015. I wasn't around in the 1950s, and was just short of 18 months old on 10/4/69.But from what almost everyone who was around in the 50s tells me, that was most peoples' thinking. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Mar 26 07:27:30 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Express Rider on Sun Mar 22 23:19:48 2015. Other than a few bolts & brackets at Gates Avenue, there is no sign of the Lexington El. Totally different than at Myrtle. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by ntrainride on Thu Mar 26 08:18:28 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Edwards! on Wed Mar 18 03:08:14 2015. simple. the earlier white inhabitants experienced post-war increases in income and became able to afford larger living quarters. concurrently, the earlier inhabitants started having families (with more than one child) and hence, started needing larger living quarters. the earlier inhabitants started buying cars, and needed to take car ownership issues, i.e.: storage, into consideration. the urban density of housing and recreation wasn't a good fit for car-oriented families. due to various governmental policies (of which a strong case can be presented that it was only doing what the majority of the population desired) which enabled new housing and new highways to the relatively empty lands around the city. the construction industry was enormously helped by this, and worked hard to encourage it to continue. all these events resulted in a lot of emptying apartments. landlords started renting them to people who perhaps, for various reasons didn't or couldn't,collectively, maintain the housing and the neighborhoods. btw, while the first players in this scenario were "white",, the process itself has continued to this day, with the " browns" and the "blacks". yet, especially in brooklyn, young whire families have " rediscovered" these neighborhoods their grandparents abandoned. leading to seeing young white moms pushing baby carriages down broadway under the el.nobody "owns" the streets, the neighborhoods in brooklyn. nobody. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 26 09:57:10 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Mar 26 07:24:00 2015. It was quite unfortunate, but yes, they all had an out with the old mentality back then. Sounds ridiculous now, but that's how they thought. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 26 10:03:54 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by ntrainride on Thu Mar 26 08:18:28 2015. You are correct. Also, the housing stock was aging and aged, and major rehabilitation was necessary at that time which wasn't done, so "more well off" people moved on, and poorer people moved in.And your last sentence sums everything up beautiful. It's wasn't the "white's" neighborhood that Blacks were moving into in the 50's and 60's any more than it's the "Black's" neighborhood that whites are now moving into. Yes, people worked hard to have some semblense of civility in the "bad" neighborhoods in the 70's 80's, etc and worked hard to maintain what they could. And for that they deserve a lot of credit, but then the hostility of "white" people moving into "their" neighborhood that "they worked hard to maintain", is JUST AS BAD as the "whites" that complained in the 50's and 60's of "the Blacks" moving into "their" neighborhood "that they worked so hard to maintain". It's JUST as racist to assume a neighborhood is "Black" and "should remain Black" as it is to say the opposite about white. "Nobody 'owns' the streets, the neighborhoods in Brooklyn, nobody". |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Thu Mar 26 11:12:07 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Thu Mar 26 05:23:04 2015. In 1960, when I was in George Westinghouse H.S. on Tillary St a black friend of mine told me that his family had to move out of one of the housing projects because the building was unsafe the elevator floors were so badly corroded from all the urine they were afraid a passenger would fall through and vandals were dismantling the piping system for money to the junk yards the project closed and was leveled. Karl |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Mar 26 11:47:12 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by ntrainride on Thu Mar 26 08:18:28 2015. their grandparents abandoned...or were pushed out. Or fell victim to blockbusting. Or couldn't afford to buy in the city. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Mar 26 11:50:53 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by jan k. lorenzen on Wed Mar 18 14:45:31 2015. All this discussion ignores the realities of life in the city in the '50s and '60s. Advancing decay and then in the mid-'60s onward violence and the threat of violence.You guys are talking like it was all a matter of lack of enlightened reasoning. Those things happened much earlier, with LaGuardia and Robert Moses. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Mar 26 11:52:28 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 26 10:03:54 2015. Did you live in the city in the '50s and '60s? |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 26 12:01:41 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by SLRT on Thu Mar 26 11:47:12 2015. "Couldn't afford", values were in the toilet at the time in many of those areas, so it's more so, they COULD afford to move out of the city.As for the other too, yes, pushed out and blockbusting were rampant back then. Those two things are the opposite of the third item however. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 26 12:05:39 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by SLRT on Thu Mar 26 11:50:53 2015. Yeah, the "enightened reasoning" crap is just that, crap. It's a way to sugarcoat what was happening back then, and to try and rewrite what happened.The fact remains that, the housing stock was aging, and decaying, and crime was on the rise. The people that had new found income could afford to leave, and follow what was the 40's and 50's and 60's "ideal" of a private car and life in the suburbs. Cities were looked at as old fashioned, crime ridden places. That perception eventually turned to reality in some neighborhoods as the decayed housing stock attracted poorer people and crime went up. That was further exploited by redlining, blockbusting, further decay, arson, insurance fraud, and everything else that drove even more people out, and further destroyed the neighborhoods. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 26 12:08:25 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by SLRT on Thu Mar 26 11:52:28 2015. My grandparents and family were driven out of first Fort Greene, and then later Bushwick as crime destroyed the neighborhoods.They eventually wound up in Ridgewood, we watched as Bushwick next to them burned in the 70's. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Mar 26 12:16:12 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 26 12:05:39 2015. My family always lived in Brooklyn, in rental apartments. When I got out of the Army I could get a GI mortgage (nothing down was the big issue) and didn't want to throw money out on rent. I wanted to buy in Brooklyn but couldn't come close to the price of anything in any halfway safe neighborhood close to a subway, ANY subway. Finally I was shown a newly-built house on a triangle of land in Flatlands with roads on all three sides. $45,000 and I would have to take a bus to the Nostrand Avenue subway to get to/from work. But then the corker: It wouldn't "VA." That meany the VA would only loan as much as the house appraised for so I would have to come up with the rest in cash.I went to Babylon where I paid $38,000 for a pleasant house in a tree-lined neighborhood. And the VA WOULD give me a 100% mortgage. So when you talk about having enough money to move to the suburbs, you have to consider NOT enough money to stay in the city. And now it's even worse. The white people everyone cites as moving into the city now are not the same class as they people who were forced out. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Mar 26 12:19:34 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 26 12:08:25 2015. So you know it was more than lack of vision that brought down the els.FWIW, I remember riding on the Myrt, passing Fort Greene Park and thinking how pretty it was but I'd risk my hide if I went into it. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 26 12:19:49 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by SLRT on Thu Mar 26 12:16:12 2015. Obviously it's way worse now. No one was saying it wasn't.And of course there were areas that remained expensive in the city, but those weren't the areas that were falling apart by the 60's. Some were falling in the 50's already, and earlier. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 26 12:21:58 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by SLRT on Thu Mar 26 12:19:34 2015. I am not the one that's saying it was a "lack of vision" that brought down the el. I was saying all along there was a lot more too it.I am not one of the people here trying to simplify this saying it was "lack of vision". Those are the ones that think they know it all learning liberal crap from a textbook, and a professor telling them how one should think in "college". |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Mar 26 13:02:34 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 26 12:21:58 2015. Sorry. I was ranting about the way the thread was going.This is a problem will all history teaching nowadays. Vicarious facts + selective quotation + interpretation + politics + professor bias = history. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Mar 26 13:26:19 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Mar 26 07:27:30 2015. I was looking that afternoon, but just couldn't see anything remaining.Thanks for filling me in on this. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Thu Mar 26 13:53:24 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Mar 26 07:27:30 2015. Yes, they did an amazing job erasing evidence that an el once connected there. One of the cleanest jobs ever. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Mar 26 14:01:26 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Thu Mar 26 05:24:34 2015. Let's see him try to sugarcoat all of the Brooklyn riots. Even minority businesses were destroyed by these savages. Some of those destroyed buildings took 30+ years to rebuild, simply because people were reluctant to invest in the areas. So, he expected the MTA to keep the Myrtle Ave el? Aside from that, if people were protesting the Myrtle Ave el's removal, I never saw it on TV or read it in the Long Island Press. The only TV coverage that I ever saw was stuff like Robert Lape's report on the el's last day on ABC-TV. Plenty of reports on the el's closing- none about any protests to keep it going! So, don't blame us for not knowing about it! |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Mar 26 14:04:14 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Mitch45 on Thu Mar 26 13:53:24 2015. Anyone know what ever became of that last el pillar they extracted at Grand/Lexington, a while back? |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Mar 26 14:59:54 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Express Rider on Thu Mar 26 13:26:19 2015. I went there looking for evidence as far back as 1989. I couldn't see anything.The only reason I know the few bolts and brackets is that a sub chatter posted a few pics with arrows... |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Mar 26 15:00:47 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Mar 26 14:04:14 2015. No idea. But as only sub chatters would be interested, I imagine they scrapped it. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Mar 26 16:02:01 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Mar 26 14:59:54 2015. interesting. thanks.wasn't there some talk of trying to preserve that last bent of the Fulton St. el, that post- 1940 had served as a pedestrian overpass from the street to the Franklin ave. shuttle? |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Mar 26 20:20:45 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Express Rider on Thu Mar 26 16:02:01 2015. I don't think it could have been done and still have it ADA compliant. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Mar 26 20:26:52 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Express Rider on Thu Mar 26 16:02:01 2015. I always liked the idea of extending the Frankie to the "G" station at Bedford/Nostrand and terminating it on the center track. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Mar 26 23:46:56 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Mar 26 20:26:52 2015. There was supposed to be some kind of linking subway built, to replace the Franklin shuttle and connect with the G at Bedford Nostrand correct?I'm not sure if solid documentation/plans have ever been located for this project. |
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