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BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by r17-6599 on Thu Oct 16 20:00:02 2014 Displayed at this week's APTA event in Houston.No, this isn't the final cut. Too many hands in the pie. Besides BART, the public input has been pretty influential. jrc 
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by northshore on Thu Oct 16 20:03:18 2014, in response to BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by r17-6599 on Thu Oct 16 20:00:02 2014. I hope it's changed. It's a pretty bad design (inside and out). |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Thu Oct 16 20:12:53 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by northshore on Thu Oct 16 20:03:18 2014. IAWTP |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Oct 16 20:22:49 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by northshore on Thu Oct 16 20:03:18 2014. okay, since I live in BART territory, and have walked through the mock up 3 times, what are your specific criticisms? |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Oct 16 20:23:58 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by northshore on Thu Oct 16 20:03:18 2014. Although I haven't seen the interior shots, I think it'a an improvement over the current rolling stock. |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Oct 16 21:08:20 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by randyo on Thu Oct 16 20:23:58 2014. So IMHO these cars correct BART's early fantasies of suburban comfort (cushy but toxic when burning seats, carpet, a promise of seats for all) and insufficient doors. There is talk of spending most of $1billion to have new wall platforms built @ Montgomery and Embarcadero so trains can offload faster. Having 3 doors will make that unnecessary.I don't like plug doors, but the BART folks claim greater noise dampening. As to the insides, I am not thrilled by the bike storage, but bike usage out here is very high. |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by r17-6599 on Thu Oct 16 21:17:26 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Oct 16 21:08:20 2014. I don't like plug doors either. Seen in operation on light rail cars, they are slow, don't appear to be steady, never seem to close properly (on the first try) and aren't especially noise retarders.The interior colors are garish but are only for the mock up; not yet decided for the real thing. |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by northshore on Thu Oct 16 21:39:13 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Oct 16 20:22:49 2014. Limited seating, poor placement of poles, awkward interior arrangement, plug doors. |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by northshore on Thu Oct 16 21:41:36 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Oct 16 21:08:20 2014. BART is not an urban subway, but rather it is a defacto commuter rail system serving the suburbs. |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by r17-6599 on Thu Oct 16 21:49:43 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by northshore on Thu Oct 16 21:39:13 2014. Again, not final design. |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Oct 16 22:17:10 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by northshore on Thu Oct 16 21:39:13 2014. Between wheelchairs and bikes seating is limited by physics. As to poles, that is very controversial. I made one of my visits to the mock up w/ friend in chair. She had no complaint about the pole placement near the doors which I find convenient for support when prep'ing to exit. Must say in passing many BART riders seem to think they needn't stand up OR move toward doors until the train has stopped at their station--amateurs! That said there are some in the vocal disability copmmunity who have complained bitterly about the designs, including one who thought color coding the Federally mandated priority seating was discriminatory. The other issue is whether BART will find enough $$ to enlarge the fleet because currently there are not enough cars to properly serve rush hour crowds. |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Oct 16 22:54:28 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by northshore on Thu Oct 16 21:41:36 2014. You and BART can make that claim all you want, but the ridership stats say otherwise. Go to bart.gov and read the reports. The bulk of riders are in SF, and in the El Cerrito-Hayward stretch in the urban East Bay. |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Oct 17 04:29:03 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by northshore on Thu Oct 16 21:41:36 2014. BART is not an urban subway, but rather it is a defacto commuter rail system serving the suburbsNo, it's America's Frankfurt S-Bahn. |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Fri Oct 17 07:49:43 2014, in response to BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by r17-6599 on Thu Oct 16 20:00:02 2014. Wow...a new vehicle with a BETTER railfan view. Not sure I get that stupid door overhang. |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by WillD on Fri Oct 17 08:07:22 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by northshore on Thu Oct 16 21:39:13 2014. Is there any movement of the door away from the carbody when it opens? Because if there isn't then it's really an exterior hung sliding door, as is common on the London Underground, rather than a plug door. From the way the panel above the door continues I'd be inclined to believe they're the former. |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Fri Oct 17 11:52:04 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by Jersey Mike on Fri Oct 17 07:49:43 2014. I was wondering about a potential railfan view. It looks like (kinda hard to tell from the angle) that there may be a view on the right side of the car (as viewed from inside). IIRC, BART T/Os sit on the right side.The current C and C2 cars, IIRC, have little to no RFV. The A cars have kind of one, you have to sit in the seat on the left side by the cab and look over your shoulder, since the seat faces away from the cab. I did that once or twice, may have even taken a pic (which I may not yet have scanned). I do remember I could see most of the operator's console, including the speed readings (3 indications, one was reading "80" (maximu speed?), the other "68" (maybe limiting speed for whatever block the train occupied) and the third was the actual train speed. Actually, the 68 was through the TransBay Tube, I was a little disappointed that the speed limit wasn't closer to 80, maybe that was due to spacing and/or schedule limits. |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Fri Oct 17 14:39:32 2014, in response to BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by r17-6599 on Thu Oct 16 20:00:02 2014. Is there a picture of this mockup's interior available?--Mark |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by r17-6599 on Fri Oct 17 16:07:00 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Fri Oct 17 14:39:32 2014. I'll try to get one up |
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Re: BART's new car: interior of mock up at APTA |
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Posted by r17-6599 on Fri Oct 17 16:20:13 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by r17-6599 on Fri Oct 17 16:07:00 2014. Hope these 5 pix can help. All I was able to get; car was filling up.joe     
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Oct 17 16:24:18 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by WillD on Fri Oct 17 08:07:22 2014. When I discussed the door w/ a BART person the word plug was used. |
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Re: BART's new car: interior of mock up at APTA |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Oct 17 17:49:20 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: interior of mock up at APTA, posted by r17-6599 on Fri Oct 17 16:20:13 2014. Second shot out the cab window there is priceless! Looks like one of the space caskets from Star Trek. :) |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Oct 17 18:35:34 2014, in response to BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by r17-6599 on Thu Oct 16 20:00:02 2014. I get the impression from the mockup that the new stock will be unitized to some extent since it looks like that particular car can only be used on the ends of the trains with no provision for passenger walk through if they're in the middle. |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Oct 17 18:37:08 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by northshore on Thu Oct 16 20:03:18 2014. I was only in SF once, but it looks like an improvement over the current designs. |
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| (1319222) | |
Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Oct 17 18:49:22 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by randyo on Fri Oct 17 18:35:34 2014. Not what I was told. Remember that the C cars have single cab ends which can be locked for mid train use. |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by r17-6599 on Fri Oct 17 19:30:44 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by randyo on Fri Oct 17 18:37:08 2014. IMHO, these look to be a giant step backwards, as far as aesthetics goes. The original cars were graceful, whether moving or stopped. JEt age appearance and performance for their times.These transit agencies think that a car must be "state of the art" (I still can't figure out what the hell that means 40 years later) with all these fancy trappings that just add to the cost and means more to maintain. (we know how that goes here in NYC). Go back to the tried & true design, I say. |
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| (1319226) | |
Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by northshore on Fri Oct 17 20:13:06 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by r17-6599 on Fri Oct 17 19:30:44 2014. Well said. |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Oct 18 02:16:34 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by r17-6599 on Fri Oct 17 19:30:44 2014. Except that the original cars required going OOS, into a yard, cutting off an "A" cab car adding "Bs" and then returning the A to the end position. Compare this to the recent description in another thread of adding cars on the 7 in many fewer moves. The "Buck Rogers" look with the carpets, no handholds (as delivered), were NOT tried and true but an attempt to throw out most of the transit industry experience of the 20th century. Frankly BART only got a very few things right--third rail power, level boarding and AC. |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Oct 18 04:11:09 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Oct 18 02:16:34 2014. but an attempt to throw out most of the transit industry experience of the 20th centuryThe problem was that if you looked at the state of the transit industry in the US in the 1950s and 1960s, it wasn't exactly an ideal condition, and nobody would have faulted people for trying a different approach to increase ridership*. FWIW, it probably would have panned out a bit better had the suburban office complex not developed, with that growth being channeled into secondary downtowns and the original core. *I've routinely argued that BART should have been a clone of Frankfurt S-Bahn in the US. Mind you, it's hard to ape something that's somewhat revolutionary in concept overseas, and quite frankly I suspect that by going with an isolated system, they avoid dealing with the feds, the local Class Is, and their unions which would have killed any hope for OPTO. Frankly BART only got a very few things right--third rail power, level boarding and AC. Given that the equivalent of BART in the rest of the world uses catenary, I'd argue that it was another thing done wrong. Hell, even the brand new metros in China use catenary... |
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Re: BART's new car: interior of mock up at APTA |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Sat Oct 18 12:09:56 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: interior of mock up at APTA, posted by r17-6599 on Fri Oct 17 16:20:13 2014. WoW! |
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Re: BART's new car: interior of mock up at APTA |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Sat Oct 18 12:10:15 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: interior of mock up at APTA, posted by r17-6599 on Fri Oct 17 16:20:13 2014. WOW! |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Oct 18 12:46:47 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Oct 18 04:11:09 2014. BART is thoughly unionized--strikes last yeatr. As to the class 1s, there is a long held conviction that BART chose the non standard guage in order not to be able to take over existing RR ROW. At the time of the decision, Bechtel Corp which was part of the consortium doing all of the design work was linked to the Southern Pacific holding company w/Steven as Board Chair and Steven Jr as a Director. At the time SP was working hard to get rid of the Peninsula commuter service now known as Caltrain.As to catenary v third rail, given that BART IS a subway system, I have no particular preference. WMATA has proven some subway systems can't cope w/snow. MBTA has both catenary and third rail operations... BART has gained ridership as auto centric dinosaurs have disappeared. |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Oct 18 16:09:56 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Oct 17 18:49:22 2014. The c cars do, but the front end of the new cars don't look the same. |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Oct 18 19:06:03 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by randyo on Sat Oct 18 16:09:56 2014. As I said when I toured the mock-up at two different BART stations I was told they could lead or run mid train. BART learned the A, B system cost them money. |
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Re: BART's new car: interior of mock up at APTA |
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Posted by northshore on Sat Oct 18 19:19:57 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: interior of mock up at APTA, posted by r17-6599 on Fri Oct 17 16:20:13 2014. The SOAC commuter car interior would be perfect for BARTwww.nycsubway.org/perl/show?7195 |
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Re: BART's new car: interior of mock up at APTA |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Oct 18 20:43:52 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: interior of mock up at APTA, posted by northshore on Sat Oct 18 19:19:57 2014. Nope. Not enough room for wheelchairs or bikes, obsolete. |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Oct 18 21:31:05 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Oct 18 19:06:03 2014. That may be the case, but it just doesn't look that way.They probably developed a new kind if inter car diaphragm. |
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Re: BART's new car: interior of mock up at APTA |
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Posted by Nilet on Sun Oct 19 05:43:48 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: interior of mock up at APTA, posted by r17-6599 on Fri Oct 17 16:20:13 2014. Aw, the seats are narrow and they look uncomfortable and a lot less squishy. :( |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Oct 19 16:10:14 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Oct 18 04:11:09 2014. a further thought about catenary. Perhaps the solution to over v under wiping third rail could be solved by stringing catenary on all of the LIRR and scrapping the 3rd rail entirely. Certainly no clearance issues in the East River tunnels or any of the trackage once used by PRR and NH to access the car floats in Brooklyn. Of course I am not aware of the dimensions chosen for ESA so that could scupper my thoughts. |
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Re: BART's new car: interior of mock up at APTA |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Oct 19 17:47:45 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: interior of mock up at APTA, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Oct 18 20:43:52 2014. pwn3d |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Oct 19 17:48:37 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by WillD on Fri Oct 17 08:07:22 2014. pwn3d |
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Re: BART's new car: interior of mock up at APTA |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon Oct 20 14:46:20 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: interior of mock up at APTA, posted by r17-6599 on Fri Oct 17 16:20:13 2014. Thank you!--Mark |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon Oct 20 14:52:17 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Oct 19 16:10:14 2014. Do you think third rail is more reliable that catenary? It always seems like trains out of NY Penn have to run slow when it gets very hot because of catenary drooping (or is that just because of the age of the infrastructure). The LIRR or Metro North have no such problems.--mark |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Oct 20 15:16:51 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon Oct 20 14:52:17 2014. So in my youth I lived in Chicago both some bits of summer and then after quitting college 11/2 years working in the Loop. I commuted on the (then Illinois Central, now Metra) Electric with "obsolete" 1500VDC catenary. I was late exactly once after a major blizzard when trains were running slower than scheduled.FWIW, I was back there in '67 again after an even mopre major blizzard (NYC lost all of its signals Cincy to Kankakee) due to iced wires. The IC was running, the L was not. In modern times we have multiple cases of WMATA closing down in the snow--something about snow on the third rail. In my 4 years in NYC in the late 60s, the subway always ran just slower, and of course all local on the BMT in Manhattan as the express tracks were filled w/parked trains off hours. I have no memory of the PRR shutting down in that period either. I suspect that if the catenary from DC to NH were completely rebuilt w/ state of the art design, the reliability would soar. |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Mon Oct 20 15:45:45 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon Oct 20 14:52:17 2014. or is that just because of the age of the infrastructureFWIW, how often does the wire fall on light rail systems around the country or NJT's Morris & Essex Lines and the NJCL? As much as some here would argue that the PRR's system is bullet proof, it's an old system that isn't constant tension catenary. In the rest of the first world, catenary is the standard for electrification, and it's used in places where people actually rely on usable railway service. The French ripped up their mainline third rail, the British have banned any new third rail electrifications unless it's an extension of an existing line, and the third rail S-Bahns of Germany, Berlin and Hamburg, are considering new extensions that use rolling stock that will use existing overhead catenary. With the exception of subway systems*, third rail is a dead end for mainline electrification, and nobody wants to keep building a substation every mile or so when you have nearly thirty to fifty miles to electrify. *And FWIW, you have Asian systems like Tokyo and Shanghai which have lines that use catenary... |
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Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Tue Oct 21 14:59:56 2014, in response to Re: BART's new car: Bombardier mock up at APTA, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Mon Oct 20 15:45:45 2014. Fair enough.--mark |
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