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| CAF lands Boston order (1291377) | |
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| (1291377) | |
CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Fri May 16 19:42:45 2014 Boston Type 9 car |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri May 16 19:58:44 2014, in response to CAF lands Boston order, posted by TransitChuckG on Fri May 16 19:42:45 2014. Interesting. Seems to me they built the previous WMATA order--the one where they got caught using the wrong alloy spec axles among other issues. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by WillD on Fri May 16 20:29:31 2014, in response to CAF lands Boston order, posted by TransitChuckG on Fri May 16 19:42:45 2014. Two doors per side, or does the door which appear to provide entry into the cab serve as the third door? And what is the point of doing a low floor LRV if their antiquated fare collection system is going to force passengers to pay their fare at the front door? Passengers are forced to step up into the area over the truck, then step back down into the low floor area. 100% LF LRVs are nothing new, so if they're going to force everyone to pass through the front door they may as well go with those. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by The Silence on Fri May 16 21:01:19 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by WillD on Fri May 16 20:29:31 2014. It looks like the forward door has a passenger activation button like the other two. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri May 16 23:01:52 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by WillD on Fri May 16 20:29:31 2014. Level Boarding!!! and Charlie readers at every door. Fully exploited MU. That means OPTO--its onlt 116 years since Sprague figured it out for streetcars. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Fri May 16 23:47:04 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri May 16 19:58:44 2014. Interesting. Seems to me they built the previous WMATA order--the one where they got caught using the wrong alloy spec axles among other issues.Actually it's 2 procurements ago. 192 CAFs are the 5k cars, 184 Alstoms are the 6k cars. Kawasaki is presently contracted to manufacture the first 364 of the 748 7k cars. 400 of the 7k cars will replace the 300 Rohr 1k cars and the 100 Breda 4k cars. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Fri May 16 23:58:56 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by WillD on Fri May 16 20:29:31 2014. Two doors per side, or does the door which appear to provide entry into the cab serve as the third door? And what is the point of doing a low floor LRV if their antiquated fare collection system is going to force passengers to pay their fare at the front door? Passengers are forced to step up into the area over the truck, then step back down into the low floor area. 100% LF LRVs are nothing new, so if they're going to force everyone to pass through the front door they may as well go with those.Me thinks the single door is a loading and discharging door. The cars procured for the DC Streetcar project have a similar door configuration.  MBTA CAF  DC Streetcar Inekon John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat May 17 00:41:53 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by Sand Box John on Fri May 16 23:58:56 2014. Weren't those DC cars originally purchased for the LRT line across the river in Southeast DC?Whatever happened with that line? |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat May 17 00:44:26 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by Sand Box John on Fri May 16 23:47:04 2014. the ROHR cars..i can understand replacing..since they were made of tissue paper structurally.is that the same issue with the Breda 4k? |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by The Silence on Sat May 17 02:12:42 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by Edwards! on Sat May 17 00:41:53 2014. Part of it was built as a test track it seems, other than that it seems the H/Benning line got all the attention due to some legal mess on the CSX tracks the Anacostia line would have used. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by milantram on Sat May 17 09:45:25 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by The Silence on Fri May 16 21:01:19 2014. The design repeats the same mistake that has been prevalent with Boston's LRV purchases since the Boeings. The rear half of the car is always slower to unload because there is only one door in that section, when stopping at a right-side platform. Similarly, when stopping at a platform where left-side doors open, the front half of the LRV is slow to unload.Muni corrected that mistake with the 151 Bredas purchased between 1996 and 2003, because they now have four doors that open regardless of the configuration of the platform. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat May 17 12:49:04 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by milantram on Sat May 17 09:45:25 2014. Spot on, Peter. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Sat May 17 13:05:35 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by Edwards! on Sat May 17 00:44:26 2014. the ROHR cars..i can understand replacing..since they were made of tissue paper structurally.Actually both the Rohr and Breda cars are nearly structurally identical. The difference being the Rohr cars had the crap run out of them during the early years of their life. About 15 years ago they starting showing evidence of metal fatigue. That is one of the reasons why WMATA no longer advertizes 75 MPH top speeds.  Gusset plate over crack at lower corner of end door. is that the same issue with the Breda 4k? When WMATA rehabilitated the 1k cars back in the 1990s they only replaced the propulsion and mechanicals. The Breda 2 and 3k cars had structural upgrades done to them as well when they were rehabilitated in the 2000s. The Breda 4k cars are the only cars WMATA has that still have DC propulsion systems in them. WMATA came to conclusion that it would be cheaper to replace the 4k cars with new cars instead of rehabilitating them to get maybe 20 more years life out of them. Their original plan was to rehabilitate them to a standard that met or exceed specs that were used for the rehabilitation of the 2 and 3k cars John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Sat May 17 13:24:16 2014, in response to CAF lands Boston order, posted by TransitChuckG on Fri May 16 19:42:45 2014. How the hell is the operator supposed to collect fares? |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat May 17 13:33:20 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by Jersey Mike on Sat May 17 13:24:16 2014. maybe, the T will enter the last quarter of the previous centuey and adopt POP. The math of 3 T/Os for those low capacity cars is insane. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Sat May 17 13:33:31 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by Edwards! on Sat May 17 00:41:53 2014. Weren't those DC cars originally purchased for the LRT line across the river in Southeast DC?Yes. Whatever happened with that line? The District of Columbia has not finalized the alignment from the 11th Street Bridge thorough Anacostia to the Anacostia Metrorail station. The decision on that alignment also will effect where the stop at the Metrorail station will be. They also haven't finalized the location of the terminal station along South Capitol Street that will serve Joint Base Bowling - Anacostia. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat May 17 13:44:36 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat May 17 13:33:20 2014. POP is an abomination, not an advancement. Certainly viable if you want your fare recovery ratio to drop towards the single digits. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat May 17 13:45:09 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by milantram on Sat May 17 09:45:25 2014. What do you expect from government bureaucrats? |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat May 17 14:27:10 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by Olog-hai on Sat May 17 13:44:36 2014. not if sufficient fare checking is done. When I go to Sacramento I see serious enforcement. The LRV stops, cops deploy to the two ends and work to the middle. Standing by is their SUV for removed miscreants. Have seen similar patrols in Portland though no SUV. As with ANY system, the key is the impression that you WILL be caught. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat May 17 14:28:12 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by Olog-hai on Sat May 17 13:45:09 2014. same stupidity as from privates. SROTOW for instance. |
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| (1291589) | |
Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by R30A on Sat May 17 20:06:28 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat May 17 14:27:10 2014. Olog doesn't believe in the 21st century. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat May 17 21:05:23 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by R30A on Sat May 17 20:06:28 2014. POP evolved in the80s of last century in the US. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat May 17 21:17:40 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat May 17 21:05:23 2014. POP's a devolution, not an evolution.And it was in Canada in the 80s, not anywhere in the USA. Started in Germany during the 60s. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat May 17 21:19:05 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by R30A on Sat May 17 20:06:28 2014. You don't believe in common sense.What good has come out of the 21st Century anyhow, now that you bring it up (POP originated in the 1960s, so if you want to go that route, it makes POP an anachronism too)? Lots of evil, in fact. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat May 17 21:22:10 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat May 17 14:27:10 2014. not if sufficient fare checking is doneLabor-intensive. Also a backdoor for a police state, which given where POP originated, would be unsurprising. If you're going to hire that many personnel, may as well have on-board conductors that can collect fares. As with ANY system, the key is the impression that you WILL be caught No, there's no such impression. Even LA gave up POP in favor of turnstiles. BTW, over on Wikipedia, the issue of possible racial profiling with POP as the cause was broached. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by WillD on Sat May 17 21:31:01 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by Sand Box John on Fri May 16 23:58:56 2014. Yes, but none of the Skoda or Inekon Astras, Trios, or Anitras were used with a fare collection arrangement which required operator interaction. Thus mobility impaired passengers are free to board by the middle three doors. This is as opposed to Boston's Type 8 and now 9 LRVs which force all passengers riding (these days without a Charlie Card) to board at the front door and ascend steps. At that point they may as well just order high floor LRVs. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by WillD on Sat May 17 21:34:22 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by Olog-hai on Sat May 17 13:45:09 2014. So you DO support POP then. After all, what makes Muni's Bredas work better than MBTA's Type 8s is the addition of the rearmost door. That door is not viable with a fare collection arrangement that puts the onus of enforcement on the operator, and nobody in their right mind is going to implement conductors on an LRV. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by WillD on Sat May 17 21:37:31 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by Olog-hai on Sat May 17 13:44:36 2014. False, particularly in the case of operator based fare collection. NYC has seen a marked decrease in fare evasion since implementing POP on their SBS routes. And that while improving safety by eliminating operator distraction, speeding the routes, and providing superior customer service to informed regular riders. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat May 17 21:42:06 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by Olog-hai on Sat May 17 21:17:40 2014. actually several US LR lines started operation in the 80s. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat May 17 21:46:48 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by Olog-hai on Sat May 17 21:22:10 2014. When I was railfanning the Blue & Green Lines some 15 yrs ago, the cops were checking EVERYONE changing lines at the transfer station. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun May 18 00:06:48 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by Olog-hai on Sat May 17 21:17:40 2014. POP's a devolution, not an evolution.Passing though fare gates like an idiot when then Germans have barrier free stations with easy transfers between modes makes fare gates look like a devolution. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun May 18 00:21:04 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun May 18 00:06:48 2014. Having to maintain turnstiles both mechanically and the card reader heads is such a waste of effort. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun May 18 00:54:31 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun May 18 00:06:48 2014. Rhetoric is meaningless. When things shut down because there's no money to pay for them, you'll pray for fare gates and conductors. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun May 18 00:55:40 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun May 18 00:21:04 2014. But not TVMs and validator machines? Never mind the tickets that the POP cops carry around?The fare recovery ratio speaks for itself, never mind the manpower necessary to bring it back up. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun May 18 00:57:57 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by Olog-hai on Sun May 18 00:54:31 2014. The Germans have "chip and PIN" technology. No worries, no contact ... |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun May 18 01:08:28 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun May 18 00:57:57 2014. And of course, Rüdiger Grube finds a way to mess revenues up for Deutsche Bahn in spite of it. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun May 18 01:21:00 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by Olog-hai on Sun May 18 01:08:28 2014. Chip and PIN brings the costs down to nearly nothing. Machines last as long as somebody doesn't cut a hole in the bottom and hack it. Yeah, that's happened over there too. Russkie and Romanian crime rings ... they're everywhere. :) |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun May 18 04:40:51 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by Olog-hai on Sun May 18 00:55:40 2014. But not TVMsYou'd need those regardless. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun May 18 04:47:10 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by Olog-hai on Sat May 17 21:22:10 2014. Also a backdoor for a police state, which given where POP originatedIf I don't pay the fare on HBLR, and I'm caught, I am given a ticket by a NJT police officer or a peace officer. If I don't pay the fare of NYCTA, I am given a ticket by a police officer. If I don't pay the fare on LIRR, I am taken into custody by the police and ticketed, so again, how is this a police state? Labor-intensive. One conductor per run versus one peace officer that can do multiple runs. may as well have on-board conductors that can collect fares Why should he collect fares if his job is to enforce fares? We have TVMs for that purpose, and the TVMs take credit cards. Even LA gave up POP in favor of turnstiles. Which will become useless when nobody is there to babysit them. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun May 18 04:48:51 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun May 18 04:47:10 2014. AEM? Mett Olog ... Olog? Meet AEM. :)
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun May 18 05:00:07 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun May 18 04:48:51 2014. I keep forgetting that the brick wall at work is more receptive to my ideas than Olog. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun May 18 05:06:25 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun May 18 05:00:07 2014. Even the foil one being the plasterboard. :)I lived in the 1950's ... they sucked. Heh. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by Nilet on Sun May 18 15:52:09 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by Olog-hai on Sat May 17 21:22:10 2014. You think having cops write tickets to people who break the law is a "police state?"Not surprising, I guess, since you're an anarchist. Also, since when have you cared about racial profiling? |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by Nilet on Sun May 18 15:56:26 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by Olog-hai on Sat May 17 21:19:05 2014. What good has come out of the 21st Century anyhow, now that you bring it up (POP originated in the 1960s, so if you want to go that route, it makes POP an anachronism too)? Lots of evil, in fact.Meh. Not nearly as classic as the time you said ending apartheid led to genocide of white people funded by communists, or that the French Revolution failed because God was angry at them for unseating the king he'd appointed. |
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Re: CAF lands Boston order |
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Posted by WillD on Sun May 18 15:59:09 2014, in response to Re: CAF lands Boston order, posted by Olog-hai on Sun May 18 00:54:31 2014. Again you seem to be under the impression fare gates or conductors are free, when it should be readily apparent those are the most expensive means of enforcing the fare. |
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