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Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths |
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Posted by lirr42 on Sun Apr 6 16:10:31 2014 The Long Island Rail Road is a system that was built in little bits and pieces over the course of a century. Platform lengths, how long the actual platform where trains can stop is, have never been standard on the LIRR. From the days when a LIRR platform was often just some gravel or asphalt on the ground to the almost universally high-level platform system we see today, there have always been those stations that have shorter platforms than others.The "standard" platform length on the Long Island Rail Road is 12 cars long, as that is the longest-length train that the LIRR runs in normal revenue service. However, many branches rarely, if ever, see 12-car trains, so in certain cases, the shorter platforms are good enough for those branches. Usually, stations in diesel territory will only see 8-car long trains at most, but there are occasions where trains of 9 or more cars are run. At the stations that have uncommonly short platforms, only the maximum allowed number of cars open their doors at that station, and the others remain closed. We have all heard those announcements over the PA: "only the first six cars will open at St. Albans;" "You must be in one of the first four cars to exit at Kew Gardens or Forest Hills;" "Only the first car will platform at Amagansett." At each station that has a uncommonly short platform, the unopened cars hang off the platform in a different way. At St. Albans the first six cars always platform, no matter what direction you're heading in, but at Valley Stream, the first eight cars platform when you are going east, and the last eight cars platform when you are going west. Since each station is different, there has to be a different policy for each individual station, since some stations have grade crossings that the LIRR like to avoid fouling and signals or switches which the LIRR can't foul. There are specific rules that indicate which cars are to be opened at which platforms in which directions for each station, so it's not made up on the fly. It is different at every station, and it can be confusing (though regualar riders at short platform stations tend to learn the patterns at their stop and adjust accordingly.) Last night, I created the following map which shows all of the different platform lengths, and if the platform is unusually short, exactly which cars will open their doors at that station. The number indicated in the circle represents the length of the platform in number of cars (multiply that number by 85 to get the approximate length of the platform in feet). In certain cases, a letter precedes the number, and that indicates which of the cars open their doors at each station. The letters mean the following:
Here is the map, you can click to enlarge it to get a better look. There are a couple of exceptions and remarks, which I will make below. (SubChat would only let me embed a map that was either really small or really, really large. But you can click on the map to enlarge it, or download a full-resoloution .pdf version at this link.)
The terminal stations all have different track layouts, depending on what track you are on and what direction you are going from. Instead of attempting to clutter up the map with them, I will indicate them below: Jamaica Universal 12-car platforms for Jamaica is on the LIRR's wishlist, but due to the very close proximity of switches on different sides of the platforms, extending the platforms would be impossible without either very large gaps or substantial interlocking reconfiguration. The LIRR will be doing the latter as part of the Jamaica Capacity Improvement Project, so we're likely to see full 12-car platforms put in for all tracks at that point: [SubChat doesn't show tables too well, but you can see the full list of platform capacities at Jamaica at this link] New York To the LIRR, all platforms at New York Penn are 12 cars long, and every train that goes there can platform all 12 cars. However, there are a number of platforms longer than 12 cars at Penn Station, but there are no platforms shorter than 12 cars, so it doesn't make much of a difference. (You can find out more about the different platforms at NYP in the New York Penn Track-by-Track posts) [SubChat doesn't show tables too well, but you can see the full list of platform capacities at New York Penn at this link] Brooklyn Several of the platforms at Atlantic Terminal are on significant curves, so only a certain number of cars open on certain tracks, despite the longer platforms: [SubChat doesn't show tables too well, but you can see the full list of platform capacities at Atlantic Terminal at this link] There are also a number of different smaller exceptions and notes that further add to the complexity of all of these platforms:
And that's just about it, hopefully I haven't forgotten anything. All this would be a lot easier if there were full-length, 12-car platforms at every last station, but, for the most part, platform lengths don't really have all that much effect on operations or load distribution. The very busy stations tend to all have full-length platforms already, and large swarms of riders is not much of an issue at the smaller stations that often have smaller platforms as well. There's more to discuss on the topic on the subject of platform lengths, but we'll leave it here for now. No Comments See more posts about: Atlantic Terminal, Equipment, Jamaica, LIRR 101, Penn Station, Stations |
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Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths |
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Posted by Charles G on Sun Apr 6 16:33:40 2014, in response to Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by lirr42 on Sun Apr 6 16:10:31 2014. Great stuff.I suspect your information for Rosedale may be out of date. Even though the platform rehab there took about 100 years, I believe it is now complete and is either 8 or 10 cars long. |
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Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths |
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Posted by Nilet on Sun Apr 6 17:10:43 2014, in response to Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by lirr42 on Sun Apr 6 16:10:31 2014. ... almost universally high-level platform system we see today...Almost universal? Which ones don't? Does the LIRR even own any cars capable of serving a low platform these days? |
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Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths |
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Posted by lirr42 on Sun Apr 6 17:39:20 2014, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by Charles G on Sun Apr 6 16:33:40 2014. Yes, 8 cars for Rosedale sounds more accurate. I updated the map here. Thanks! |
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Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths |
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Posted by lirr42 on Sun Apr 6 17:40:08 2014, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by Nilet on Sun Apr 6 17:10:43 2014. Belmont Park still retains low-level platforms. There are permanently affixed wooden stairs that allow passengers to go from the low platform up to the door height of the M7's. |
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Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths |
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Posted by Nilet on Sun Apr 6 17:42:15 2014, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by lirr42 on Sun Apr 6 17:40:08 2014. OIC. |
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Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths |
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Posted by Gold_12th on Sun Apr 6 18:17:49 2014, in response to Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by lirr42 on Sun Apr 6 16:10:31 2014. It will take another decade or two to see 12 car length platform in 90%-ish LIRR stations. |
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Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths |
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Posted by Charles G on Sun Apr 6 18:35:56 2014, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by Gold_12th on Sun Apr 6 18:17:49 2014. I don't think you'll see many platform extensions on the LIRR other than those planned for Jamaica. I suspect that if I were to look at the LIRR in 2024 there might only be 1 or 2 stations that have had their plaforms lengthened compared to today.At busier stations, the reason for platforms shorter than 10 or 12 cars is typically due to some physical characteristic of the tracks (terminal stations, or Valley Stream) or because the station is sandwiched between two grade crossings (Oceanside and New Hyde Park come to mind). |
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Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Apr 6 19:25:58 2014, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by Charles G on Sun Apr 6 18:35:56 2014. If the 24/7 CityTicket ever happens, I predict Forest Hills and Kew Gardens will need to be lengthened to at least 6 cars... |
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Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths |
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Posted by aaron on Sun Apr 6 19:32:53 2014, in response to Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by lirr42 on Sun Apr 6 16:10:31 2014. Westbound Lawrence is head 6 only now. The M7's gap too much at that slight bend at the end of the station. Technically, the platform is 10 cars, but they aren't allowed to open any more than the head 6... |
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Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths |
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Posted by K. Trout on Sun Apr 6 19:43:40 2014, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by lirr42 on Sun Apr 6 17:40:08 2014. Can they really be called low platforms if no boarding is done from the low part? |
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Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Apr 6 20:02:47 2014, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by aaron on Sun Apr 6 19:32:53 2014. That's ridiculous. |
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Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths |
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Posted by lirr42 on Sun Apr 6 20:35:30 2014, in response to Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by lirr42 on Sun Apr 6 16:10:31 2014. More on the issue of platform lengths: http://www.thelirrtoday.com/2014/04/more-on-issue-of-platform-lengths.html |
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Posted by andy on Sun Apr 6 21:32:14 2014, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by lirr42 on Sun Apr 6 17:39:20 2014. Rosedale is 10 car lengths. Adequate for all trains except for the one AM peak train that stops there that is 12 cars (#817, at 7:48 AM). |
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Posted by andy on Mon Apr 7 17:31:42 2014, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Apr 6 20:02:47 2014. Safe operation is better than another gap accident. It's not a big deal because Lawrence does not have large passenger boardings for each train - it's not a Hicksville, Bayside, or Rockville Center, for example. |
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Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Tue Apr 8 13:05:36 2014, in response to Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by lirr42 on Sun Apr 6 16:10:31 2014. For summer service on the Greenport line, I would suggest leasing one, or a few ALP45's and NJT type multi level cars for the low level stations east of Ronkonkoma.If you build it they will come, but if you lease it, maybe they'll come too! The NJT Multilevels have both hi and low doors, a single power unit,and 6 passenger cars could be used, because there would not be a "GAP" issue. Do I hear "GreenPort cannonball" out of Penn station NY. Stops to be determined. Jamaica, Hicksville , Ronkonkoma and points east. |
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Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths |
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Posted by R36 #9346 on Wed Apr 9 09:55:31 2014, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by andy on Mon Apr 7 17:31:42 2014. I remember that the same thing was done at the Clifton station in Staten Island. Trains to Saint George only open the head 3 cars there, even though the platform can accommodate 5.Interestingly, at West 8th Street on the F, Manhattan-bound platform, there's a gap of similar size. There, all 8 cars on a train of R46s open, not just the first 7. |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Tue Apr 24 16:35:05 2018, in response to Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by lirr42 on Sun Apr 6 16:10:31 2014. 12 car trains are often run on the Port Washington Branch resulting in delays as people run back from the first two cars. Are you sure that Great Neck can only hold 10 cars? |
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Posted by fdtutf on Wed Apr 25 05:32:29 2018, in response to Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by lirr42 on Sun Apr 6 16:10:31 2014.
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Posted by R30A on Wed Apr 25 10:07:08 2018, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by fdtutf on Wed Apr 25 05:32:29 2018. All Jamaica platforms are 12 cars long. They just don't always platform all cars. |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Apr 25 10:15:56 2018, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by R30A on Wed Apr 25 10:07:08 2018. That's weird. Why would they not platform all cars of a 12-car train if they were at a 12-car platform? |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Apr 25 10:20:45 2018, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by AlM on Wed Apr 25 10:15:56 2018. A combination of switch/signal locations as well as door controls being in units of two cars. |
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Posted by LA Scott on Wed Apr 25 10:23:10 2018, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by R30A on Wed Apr 25 10:07:08 2018. It's a matter of semantics, but if they can't consistently platform all 12 cars in regular service, I don't consider it to be a 12 care platform. |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Apr 25 10:40:12 2018, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by AlM on Wed Apr 25 10:15:56 2018. Because they are not 12 car platforms, they are 11 car platforms, and they tend to open/shut cars in pairs.The platforms were built to hold 16 P54 cars, but just the rear of the 1 st car and front of the 2nd car. |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Apr 25 10:59:05 2018, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by Joe V on Wed Apr 25 10:40:12 2018. They are less than 12 cars long, but can platform 12 cars worth of doors. |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Apr 25 11:20:20 2018, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Apr 6 19:25:58 2014. Or an increase in frequency at these stations. I'm already surprised at how many people are totally fine paying LIRR prices (non-CityTicket) in Western Queens to get to Penn (and only Penn). I'd always expect a few, but not as many as there are. |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Apr 25 11:27:08 2018, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by LA Scott on Wed Apr 25 10:23:10 2018. IAWTP. |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Apr 25 11:57:41 2018, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by LA Scott on Wed Apr 25 10:23:10 2018. They CAN, they just DON'T. |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Apr 25 12:06:18 2018, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by R30A on Wed Apr 25 10:59:05 2018. Probably too tight a pinch that they want to risk it. They also want to stay back of the dwarf signals as the east end of the platform.The westbound Kew Gardens platforms was like that through the early 1990's, platforming just 2 cars. Then they extended it about 20' or so. Pre Ronkonkoma electrification, the long Hunterspoint diesel trains, like the 5:21 HPA to Yaphank (12 cars) and 5:47 to Port Jeff (13 cars) took about 3 or 4 cars off the east end of the platform. The P72's were 81' long. |
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Posted by sloth on Wed Apr 25 13:15:27 2018, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by R30A on Wed Apr 25 10:59:05 2018. The north 2 platforms just barely hold 12 cars worth of doors. It's not particularly safe on the west end where a drunk or an idiot could easily fall face first into Jay Interlocking |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Apr 25 13:18:08 2018, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by sloth on Wed Apr 25 13:15:27 2018. I think one of those platforms had a little catwalk extension (also a stairway down to one of those tunneled streets), probably just to tuck in 12 cars. But they replaced all the platforms. I don't know if they replicated that little detail. |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Wed Apr 25 15:25:28 2018, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by Joe V on Wed Apr 25 12:06:18 2018. Tell me more about the Kew Gardens platforms. They were lengthened in the 1930s and cut back in the 1960s. I have not heard anything about the platforms from the 1990s. |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Wed Apr 25 15:26:05 2018, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Apr 25 11:20:20 2018. What do you expect when subway service is lousy. |
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Posted by N6 Limited on Wed Apr 25 15:39:35 2018, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by Union Tpke on Wed Apr 25 15:26:05 2018. Right, the QBL issues pushed me onto the LIRR |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 25 15:50:20 2018, in response to Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by lirr42 on Sun Apr 6 16:10:31 2014. Usually, stations in diesel territory will only see 8-car long trains at most, but there are occasions where trains of 9 or more cars are run.The Montauk Branch sees trains longer than that. Mostly the Hamptons trains. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 25 15:54:54 2018, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by Avid Reader on Tue Apr 8 13:05:36 2014. For summer service on the Greenport line, I would suggest leasing one, or a few ALP45's and NJT type multi level cars for the low level stations east of Ronkonkoma.What stations have low level platforms east of Ronkokoma? Any one that wasn't rebuilt was abandoned. |
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Posted by italianstallion on Wed Apr 25 16:08:24 2018, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by K. Trout on Sun Apr 6 19:43:40 2014. IAWTP!!! |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Apr 25 16:19:23 2018, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by Union Tpke on Wed Apr 25 15:25:28 2018. They would not platform 4 cars there. Passengers were told first 2 cars for Kew Gardens, first 4 for Forest Hills. Then they did a modest westward extension to get in 4 cars sometime in the 1990's I believe.Flipping toggles or manning certain panels had to be a real pain in the ass between the 2 stations. |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Apr 25 16:21:57 2018, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 25 15:54:54 2018. NJT is not leasing those of all things in any case. Since NJT is about to lease 10 MARC cars, they have an equipment shortage. To bad they ruined the Comet-3's. |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Wed Apr 25 17:48:21 2018, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by Joe V on Wed Apr 25 16:21:57 2018. That's fine but I still don't know what stations he's talking about |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Apr 25 19:42:58 2018, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by R30A on Wed Apr 25 11:57:41 2018. If they don't, it's probably because either it can't be done at all, or it can't be done safely. In any case, any 12-car train I've ever been on on track 8 kept the rear two cars closed. In other cases (I'm thinking of 4 and 5 in particular), it may depend upon how the train got to the platform and how wide the gap at the end of the train is on account of the switches being too close to the end of the platform.I suppose one could call it an 11-car platform even if the eleventh car never opens even though it could safely be opened, but if only ten cars are opened in regular service, I'd call it a 10-car platform. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Apr 25 20:04:23 2018, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Apr 25 19:42:58 2018. Built in a day when 65' cars were the norm. |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu Apr 26 00:28:17 2018, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by lirr42 on Sun Apr 6 17:40:08 2014. I thought that they added high-level platforms at this station.Mike |
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Posted by fdtutf on Thu Apr 26 05:08:33 2018, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by fdtutf on Wed Apr 25 05:32:29 2018. Nice discussion, but I was actually just showing that you can put a table into SubChat if you want to. (I'm not saying it isn't a pain in the ass, because it was, but.) |
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Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Thu Apr 26 05:46:54 2018, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by fdtutf on Thu Apr 26 05:08:33 2018. Can you show how? |
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Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths |
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Posted by fdtutf on Thu Apr 26 06:55:06 2018, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Apr 26 05:46:54 2018. It's HTML. Told you it was a pain. :-)<table> <tr> <td><b>Station Track</b></td><td><b>Plat. Length</b></td><td><b>Eastbound Cars</b></td><td><b>Westbound Cars</b></ti></tr> <tr> <td>Track 1</td><td>12</td><td>Head-8 [1]</td><td>12</td></tr> <tr> <td>Track 2</td><td>12</td><td>12</td><td>12</td></tr> <tr> <td>Track 3</td><td>12</td><td>Head-10</td><td>12 [2]</td></tr> <tr> <td>Track 4</td><td>10</td><td>Head-10</td><td>Head-10</td></tr> <tr> <td>Track 5</td><td>10</td><td>Head-10 [3]</td><td>Head-10 [4]</td></tr> <tr> <td>Track 6</td><td>10</td><td>Head-10</td><td>Head-10</td></tr> <tr> <td>Track 7</td><td>10</td><td>Head-10</td><td>Head-10</td></tr> <tr> <td>Track 8</td><td>10</td><td>Head-10</td><td>Head-10</td></tr> </table> |
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Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Thu Apr 26 14:14:33 2018, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by fdtutf on Thu Apr 26 06:55:06 2018. Thanks! |
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Posted by R30A on Thu Apr 26 15:16:37 2018, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Apr 25 19:42:58 2018. The platforms are 1000 feet long. That is about 10-20 feet longer than first door to last door on a 12 car train of LIRR MUs. |
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Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths |
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Posted by N6 Limited on Thu Apr 26 17:34:48 2018, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by Michael549 on Thu Apr 26 00:28:17 2018. They upgraded like two of the platforms. |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Thu Apr 26 21:43:03 2018, in response to Re: Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths, posted by Michael549 on Thu Apr 26 00:28:17 2018. In 2014, the platforms hadn't yet been raised. This is a necrothread, though still worth discussing. |
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