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| Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment (1261245) | |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Bill West on Mon Dec 2 15:19:28 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Joe V on Mon Dec 2 07:28:26 2013. Both aluminum and stainless can be MIG welded.Bill |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by italianstallion on Mon Dec 2 15:51:43 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Joe V on Mon Dec 2 08:55:05 2013. Isn't PTC already being mandated? |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Dec 2 15:57:48 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by italianstallion on Mon Dec 2 15:51:43 2013. PTC will not be done on MN till 2015 deadline. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Dec 2 16:01:31 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Joe V on Mon Dec 2 08:55:05 2013. Joe to force speeds you need to put a speed signal into signal block.signal blocks are much longer than average speed restriction. making short blocks would seriously impact safety as it could lead to rear end crashes. with PTC it will be different but cab signal is a 1930's technology only later modified with speed control. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Bill West on Mon Dec 2 16:20:15 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Joe V on Mon Dec 2 08:55:05 2013. Your expertise is being misdirected, 12 year olds have caused more wrecks from outside the cab than in it. Give us a solution for that.Even though it is Monday morning, this armchair quarterbacking is not being helpful. Bill |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Mon Dec 2 16:35:42 2013, in response to PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sun Dec 1 08:56:20 2013. That train was booking!! |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Dec 2 17:04:27 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Dec 2 10:59:10 2013. I think LIRR has 7 speed aspects up to 80. Nonetheless, seems to me LIRR's system enforces speed limit while MN's does not.Is it true LIRR typically has shorter signals blocks, and their M-7 braking systems calibrated differently than an M-7A ? |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by kew gardens teleport on Mon Dec 2 17:13:38 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Dec 2 10:40:31 2013. Presuming the locos have cabs that face both ways, one simply uncouples the arriving locomotive, couples another locomotive on the other end, and when that train has departed, there's the spare loco for the next departure. Yes, it's messy operating a terminal with loads of light engine moves, but it's been done countless times before. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by WillD on Mon Dec 2 18:23:12 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Dec 2 16:01:31 2013. There are systems which would allow MNRR to convey MAS to the cab signal system independently of the signal system if they cared to install it as part of the PTC upgrade. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 2 18:51:02 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Joe V on Mon Dec 2 08:55:05 2013. It won't need to step down from 4 miles away, just get a 45 code at CP-12. Given the suppression braking rate that would be enough to slow the train sufficiently for the curve 1 mile away. A typical North Train can go from 80 to 0 in 2500 feet. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 2 18:54:55 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by WillD on Mon Dec 2 18:23:12 2013. That costs 10 times as much. There is no need to display a clear cab signal into a 30mph curve. MNRR doesn't even use signals in its cab signals, just speeds. They could fix this problem tomorrow by removing the 180 code unit at CP-12 for southbound moves and replacing it with a 120. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 2 18:56:20 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by italianstallion on Mon Dec 2 15:51:43 2013. Yes, but you're assuming PTC will work. After blowing billions on a technology that doesn't function railroads will need to find something that does. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by J trainloco on Mon Dec 2 20:47:52 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 2 18:56:20 2013. Who says it won't? What system that already has PTC has shown it to be a failure? |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 2 21:09:40 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by J trainloco on Mon Dec 2 20:47:52 2013. It has all sorts of touchy little issues like stopping trains up to 1500 feet in advance of a signal. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Dec 2 21:12:57 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 2 18:54:55 2013. no they can not, if you were to do that you need to do all restrictions, not just selected once, and every restrictions would need to be 45 or 30 mph (passenger) imagine so 6 car length restrictions now going to over a mile. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by J trainloco on Mon Dec 2 21:17:09 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 2 21:09:40 2013. It certainly doesn't have to do that. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Rockparkman on Mon Dec 2 21:44:25 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 2 21:09:40 2013. Keep the bullshit over on GoRail.com. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 2 22:36:05 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Rockparkman on Mon Dec 2 21:44:25 2013. It's all in the Amtrak NEC special instructions. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 2 22:37:48 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by J trainloco on Mon Dec 2 21:17:09 2013. It doesn't have to, but the technology isn't good enough to consistently get it closer. You also can't pull trains up to Stop signals at stations without having to trigger the stop release button, again for the same reason. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 2 22:47:21 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Dec 2 21:12:57 2013. Nice try but Amtrak already proved your excuses wrong. They installed non-conditional CSS drops at a handful of high risk speed restrictions on the NEC in response to the Back Bay derailment. Elizabeth and Frankford Jct are two of the others. It's a cheap and effective safety measure and Metro North should have done the same thing years ago.I believe in the case of Frankford Jct the cab only drops long enough to require a brake application then flips back up to Clear. That would make it more akin to the inert (always on) ATS inductors protecting severe speed restrictions out on the Santa Fe route. |
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| (1261934) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Tue Dec 3 01:13:54 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Dec 2 21:12:57 2013. BTW NJT just did a similar thing on the Atlantic City Line with the new transfer station. Previously trains got Clear signals all the way across the Delair bridge, which is a 30mph MAS, but NJT just changed it so trains approach the bridge under Approach Limited as the best possible indication. |
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| (1261961) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by merrick1 on Tue Dec 3 07:38:01 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 2 22:47:21 2013. The changes at Back Bay are annoying. Trains slow down long before the curve. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Tue Dec 3 16:23:54 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by merrick1 on Tue Dec 3 07:38:01 2013. Better that at a few locations than PTC all over. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Dec 3 17:30:23 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 2 22:47:21 2013. DIB was a pain in the ass after Kensington, and really ridiculous for PATH to have such at JSQ, but fatal accidents have these sort of results.Metro North is longer in a position to make excuses and just say no. One way or another, there will be automatic speed restrictions very soon, regardless of PTC. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Dec 3 17:31:29 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 2 22:47:21 2013. DIB was a pain in the ass after Kensington, and really ridiculous for PATH to have such at JSQ, but fatal accidents have these sort of results.Metro North is longer in a position to make excuses and just say no. One way or another, there will be automatic speed restrictions very soon, regardless of PTC. |
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| (1262216) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Tue Dec 3 22:09:13 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Joe V on Tue Dec 3 17:30:23 2013. and commuters will cry foul when speeds at places like Pleasantville station, all New Haven bridges , New Rochelle etc get dropped to 30 mph including 45 mph blocks in advance of restrictions.add about 40 minutes to your commute folks. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by j trainloco on Tue Dec 3 22:09:22 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 2 22:37:48 2013. Sure it is. PTC is a name for a number of different systems. Some of these systems already in use are capable of better than what you suggest. |
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| (1262261) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Bill West on Wed Dec 4 02:41:44 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Dutchrailnut on Tue Dec 3 22:09:13 2013. Joe, DIB is not sure fire, it didn't save lives at Chatworth.Bill |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 4 14:37:37 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Dutchrailnut on Tue Dec 3 22:09:13 2013. MN's rather inadequate ASC system is a problem that will not be swept under the rug. At the very least, expecting a permanent Approach indication at this location as the most permissive indication, as in Elizabeth, NJ, can counted on.Read this, especially the bottom: http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/safety/metro-north-wreck-kills-four-injures-63.html?channel=60&utm_source=WhatCounts+Publicaster+Edition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=RGN+12.3.13&utm_content=Full+Article and this, contrasting MN and LIRR's system in layman's terms: http://www.thelirrtoday.com/2013/12/some-comments-on-121-metro-north.html |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 4 14:41:19 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Bill West on Wed Dec 4 02:41:44 2013. I fail to see what use DIB is on a glorified subway called PATH with timer signals and trip-cocks, but there you have it . |
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| (1262405) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Bill West on Wed Dec 4 14:54:50 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 4 14:41:19 2013. You're right. I am not impressed with DIB in the first place and your PATH example does seem pointless.Bill |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 4 15:49:22 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Bill West on Wed Dec 4 14:54:50 2013. DIB and the FRA higher buff strength were in my view wrong solutioins to the problem. In the MARC/Amtrak/CSX case, I believe cab signals would have saved the day. Certainly, cab signals and the alerter/penalty brake application if not corrected speed control should have been mandated. Ultimately if PTC is well enough designed and implemented, we should see safer operation all around. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by ElectricTraction on Wed Dec 4 19:51:18 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 4 14:37:37 2013. Permanent until sometime before December 15, 2015 when ACSES II goes live. They'll probably have to until then. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment |
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Posted by ElectricTraction on Wed Dec 4 19:52:34 2013, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MNR Derailment, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 4 15:49:22 2013. Yes. It's always better to avoid collisions than engineer for them. Of course you still have to have good collision strength for non PTC-preventable accidents, but hopefully we can lose the absurd 800k/no deformation rule. |
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