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Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode |
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Posted by handbrake on Thu Aug 8 23:32:23 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by tunnelrat on Tue Aug 6 19:25:19 2013. I did not see any home ball signals in A1 through A4 tracks at the tunnel wall where the mainline ends as you walk from Euclid. The only home ball signals are facing Southbound to protect switches at K1 & K2 tracks.The dead homeball signals that are posted on the Net are Tracks A7 and A8 the yard leads that diverg from K Track yards leada headed towards Grant Avenue, and were to have descended into the main line subway that was never built just north f 76th Street. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Aug 9 07:39:49 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Aug 3 16:52:47 2013. If a forgotten station can exist, one can certainly exist there. Before WWII, subway construction on the subway east of Broadway-East New York (now Bway Junction) was in full swing. The stations at Liberty, Van Siclen, Shepard, Euclid, and possibly 76th were all being built. The line was still set to go straight east at that point under Pitkin. By the time the US got involved in the war, Bway-East new York was all tiled and ready to go, but it lacked the tracks and signals. The station shells and tunnels east of there were all built, and ready for finishing, but the war effort made it impossible to add the signals and tracks as metal was not available. Construction stopped.After the war, construction began again. By that time plans had changed, and they decided to go to Grant after Euclid. But since the rest of the line WAS built, at least as shell, it's totally conceivable that part of 76th St was also built. |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Aug 9 07:48:08 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Aug 9 07:39:49 2013. I agree. I just don't agree with the folks who say that 76th ever saw an actual train or passengers. I doubt more than a shell, if even that, was built. Maybe just some excavation and concrete pouring. A shell, at the very most. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Aug 9 07:51:40 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by Train Dude on Sat Aug 3 19:59:58 2013. His Mudder was a mudder. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Aug 9 07:52:47 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Aug 9 07:48:08 2013. And that's all that folks who say they were there ever saw. Some tile (not much on one side) and the other side was barely poured. No tracks back there either. |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Aug 9 08:00:12 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by Train Dude on Sat Aug 3 18:43:48 2013. Was this the same horse that he made into a Central park carriage horse and fed it "Beefarino"...with unfortunate digestive results?Or was that another episode? |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Aug 9 08:08:15 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by randyo on Sun Aug 4 17:20:38 2013. Also, with the project stopping and starting with WW2 and all that, the records really may be unclear. Other things, though, like construction on Lexington Ave in 20s-30s may actually be documented...I haven't seen the records, but they may be available. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Aug 9 08:10:38 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Aug 9 07:48:08 2013. Of course not. The other stations didn't see trains or passengers till years later either. 76th St, at most if it exists, was or is just a primitive station shell. probably only part. It would have been the last of the whole group that was built east of Bway East New York. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Aug 9 08:12:38 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Aug 9 07:52:47 2013. Yeah, people expecting something like the lower level at Roosevelt or something would be disappointed. If anything existed it would gave been a primitive shell, basically some concrete and piles of dirt. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Aug 9 08:37:02 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Aug 9 08:12:38 2013. Supposedly the trackbed form was done past the station, steel and cement and not much else I was told. |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Aug 9 08:45:57 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by handbrake on Thu Aug 8 23:32:23 2013. PHOTOS WERE POSTED HERE BY ANOTHER POSTER SEVERAL YEARS AGO.THEY ARE WRAPPED UP IN CANVAS. |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Fri Aug 9 09:13:50 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by Newkirk Images on Thu Aug 8 19:22:47 2013. Skeetongous! |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Aug 9 10:16:48 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Aug 9 07:39:49 2013. I already put all such fantasies to rest. |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 9 10:28:32 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Aug 9 07:39:49 2013. The only problem with that theory is that there's not a shred of paper, nor a construction map demonstrating anything beyond the current tunnel was ever built. Unused tunnels must be maintained, and if it was filled in, when was it done?My guess is the tunnel ends right where it does now, and the cinder block wall exists only to give a smooth wall to what was probably a rough, unfinished area. |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Aug 9 12:03:39 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 9 10:28:32 2013. the old line that unused tunnels must be maintained.who maintains the polo grounds shuttle? proof please.also the ind tunnel down 66th ave,also towards 63rd drive which is outside of the 4 track ROW.the tunnel under owls head park?proff IS required on these maintenance schedules.the 2 track empty tunnel past the bumper blocks at Flatbush and nostrand.this section HAD cemented up gratings untill 10 years ago when,iirc a hardware store when up next to it& the gratings were taken out & cemented over.so much as to where are the gratings leading up to & past 76st. |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 9 12:16:39 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Aug 9 12:03:39 2013. That tunnel WAS inspected regularly. |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Aug 9 15:35:26 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Aug 9 07:39:49 2013. As I mentioned in another post on this thread, the subway past Euclid was supposed to coexist with the connection to Grant. That is very obvious to those like me who have seen the Euclid model board. |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Aug 9 15:37:02 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Aug 9 07:51:40 2013. Right. And for a horse to be a good mudder, he has to eat his fodder! |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Aug 9 15:44:06 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by SMAZ on Tue Aug 6 22:45:32 2013. As I have mentioned in several posts on this topic, I first heard about the plans to extend the subway down Pitkin Ave in 1959 and specifically about the 76 St station shell in 1962 long before the internet and this whole to do about 76 St started to appear. I have also spoken to several people who claim to have been there and they all describe it exactly the same way and since these people did not know each other, it is highly unlikely if not impossible that they were able to get together to compare notes and come up with stories that were as identical as they are. |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Aug 9 16:31:19 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by randyo on Fri Aug 9 15:35:26 2013. Yes I should have said "decided to only go to Grant" |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Aug 9 16:52:20 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 9 12:16:39 2013. proff please. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Aug 9 20:26:31 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by SMAZ on Fri Aug 9 10:16:48 2013. Except for one little problem. There's folks who worked for the IND that have actually been back there. So the map isn't really conclusive "proff" of anything that the street shows no signs of what's below. :) |
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Posted by Asgard on Sat Aug 10 23:33:32 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Aug 9 07:48:08 2013. Has anyone ever said that it saw trains or passengers, other than as an April Fool's joke? |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Aug 11 03:40:47 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by Asgard on Sat Aug 10 23:33:32 2013. No although one of my sources indicated that one of the tracks from Euclid did make it part way into the station shell. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Aug 11 03:43:12 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by randyo on Sun Aug 11 03:40:47 2013. I recall one of mine mentioning that there was one track that had been used for turns out of Euclid, but had no idea it actually reached past the interlocking there. This one is a challenge to believe based on what I got told. My understanding is that one of the tracks made it near the interlocking west of one of the platforms, but ended short of where the switches would have been. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Aug 11 03:44:50 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Aug 11 03:43:12 2013. To clarify further, what I'd heard is that track was laid only on one of the roadbeds, primarily to get stuff down that way. Relays on that track never went anywhere near that far because there was no signals or IJ's out there. It was "work track." |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Aug 11 03:46:25 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Aug 11 03:44:50 2013. That sounds like it sort of agrees with the account I heard. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Aug 11 03:58:22 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by randyo on Sun Aug 11 03:46:25 2013. Unfortunately, I didn't really care too much when the guys were telling me about it, I was just curious as to what that tunnel opening lead to at the time, and my memory is really hazy on the details.But what I remember (I think) is what turned out to be the longest track going in there was actually the shortest of them all, and that the tracks that did go down part of the way (including the one I'm talking about) got ripped up for the "war effort" and the one that remained was too short to bother with. I think I also remember that the way it was designed was that the local tracks went on a downgrade to meet the yard tracks at THEIR level going towards 76, and they ended before that downgrade, a bit back. Supposedly trucks used the roadbed itself. But I'm REALLY vague on just what got said to me back then because I really didn't care much other than I asked, and got story monster. :) |
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Posted by NorthShore on Sun Aug 11 07:42:24 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Aug 3 14:57:07 2013. Aren't there any records, files or documents of construction contacts for 76th street? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sun Aug 11 10:10:49 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by NorthShore on Sun Aug 11 07:42:24 2013. try and find them.in this post 911 era no information of this kind will be given out. |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sun Aug 11 10:27:00 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by randyo on Sun Aug 11 03:40:47 2013. once again I will attempt to set the record straight.no track was ever laid beyond the bumper blocks at grant and Pitkin.there is a 3 foot space between the blocks & the curtain wall,you can see where the ROADBED & TRACKS END.there is an apx.18 inch gap[height wise]from the tracks to the subway floor.no roadbed was ever laid.on track A7,beyound the cinderblock wall a b/b was installed just before the shell station.on track A8 a b/b was installed well before the station.how far from the station I don`t know.long relays were done on track A7.the crossovers are still in place where they they were taken out from the yard leads & put on the ground.let me raise the spectre of another "fabled" connection,the irt/lirr TRACK conn.at Flatbush & atlantic.thoughths on the subject? |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Aug 11 15:37:20 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Aug 11 03:58:22 2013. The mainline of the Pitkin Av subway rises above A5 and A6 yd leads and shortly S/O that point K1 and K2 separate from the mainline and the mainline tracks drop down to allow K1 and K2 to pass over them. Since the mainline is very low at that point, A7 and A8 yd leads would come down and join the mainline from above just N/O 76 St. According to my original source, it was A1 track that extended into the station shell and as it exists now, the bulkhead S/O Euclid is irregular and does not extend straight across but rather, zigs so that the portion of the bulkhead at the end of A1 tk causes that track to be shorter than the other 3 tracks. On occasions when trains had to be laid up there, a full 600 ft train could not fit and clear the switch going from A1 to K1 so it was seldom if ever used. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Aug 11 15:45:17 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by randyo on Sun Aug 11 15:37:20 2013. That sounds about right ... like I said, heard the stories, didn't really pay all that much attention back then, but found it interesting. I remember hearing that one track went pretty far back from there, but none of them reached the station. Since you mention a downhill there, that's got to be where the one track ended, right before the downhill. |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Aug 11 15:53:07 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by tunnelrat on Sun Aug 11 10:10:49 2013. I have my theory about that and have posted it here several times. It is documented that 174 St Yd in upper Manh was built by the Board of Ed rather than the B of T since the yd was to be directly beneath PS 173 which was being built at that location just prior to the start of iND subway construction in that area. In order to avoid having the school underpinned for subway construction, the yard was constructed by the Board of Ed first and the school built,on top of it so that the rest of the subway merely had to be connected to it at the appropriate time. Several people have reported on this thread that construction in the area of 76/Pitkin was seen in the late 1940s but those who saw it didn't know what it was for. It is also apparent from looking at several maps of the area over the years that Pitkin Av did not go through prior to the 1940s but ended at Ruby St (or 76 St on the Qns side) and around that time was through routed with South Rd which is why Pitkin curves slightly south around 78 St. Taking all these situations into consideration, it is highly likely that the 76 St station shell was constructed as part of a general upgrading of the area which included installation of sewer pipes and the through routing of Pitkin Av which was done under departments other than the B of T such as Dept of Water Supply Gas and Electricity and the Boro Pres office which at the time was responsible for street paving and maintenance. If such were the case, it would explain why there are no actual B of T or NYCTA records of the station construction and since the B of T by 1951 had already decided not to extend the subway farther but build Liberty Jct for the Fulton El instead, what ever construction had been completed by that time was just abandoned and eventually sealed. In conjunction with this as I also mentioned, the city give at the time was highly corrupt and it may have been that the B of T did not want the station shell constructed but it was partially completed anyhow as part of some financial coverup. |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Aug 11 15:59:56 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Aug 11 15:45:17 2013. Well, according to some IND old timers, A7 and A8 were used for certain drill moves from Pitkin Yd and I personally saw the area where there had been switches connecting A7 and A8 to A5 and A6 yd leads with associated signals still in place. Now that I think about it, when I first went in there in 1962, I think the signals were still illuminated even though the switches were removed, so it wouldn't surprise me if the switches remained until just around that time. It seems that I heard somewhere that originally, all there was at the end of the current Pitkin subway mainline was a temporary wooden wall which was replaced by the current concrete bulkhead around the time that Grant Av station was completed. |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Aug 11 16:09:43 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by tunnelrat on Sun Aug 11 10:27:00 2013. I think you mentioned that before which leads me to believe that the person who was on the long relay was probably on a drill move on A7 out of Pitkin Yd rather than from Euclid itself. That being said, I still wonder why the concrete wall at the end of the Pitkin subway was constructed with that zig so that A1 is shorter than the other 3. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Aug 11 16:30:34 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by randyo on Sun Aug 11 15:59:56 2013. Never went back there, when I was there it had already been shut down so all I have to go by is what I was told. Now I wish I had paid a bit more attention. |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sun Aug 11 20:06:34 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by randyo on Sun Aug 11 16:09:43 2013. that is a mystery for the ages. |
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Posted by NorthShore on Sun Aug 11 20:10:44 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by randyo on Sun Aug 11 15:53:07 2013. I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOUR THEORY UP TO THE END STATEMENT ABOUT CORRUPTION.AS WITH THE PLANNED SECOND AVENUE SUBWAY, ALL ALL THE MONEY WAS PUT INTO UPGRADING THE EXISTING SYSTEM AND ORDERING NEW CARS RATHER THAN NEW EXPANSIONS, |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Aug 12 06:43:37 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Aug 9 20:26:31 2013. They've been on the other side of the concrete or cinderblock walls.Old construction there would go no further than PS 214 where pre-raised Pitkin had a dramatic drop-off into the Spring Creek marshes. |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Aug 12 06:52:03 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Aug 9 12:03:39 2013. The Polo Grounds Shuttle Tunnel in the Bronx was built into hard rock well above the water table and could be naturally preserved indefinitely without any maintenance.Any Pitkin tunnel extension would have went through a hydrological nightmare. Anything man-made in such conditions has long ago been overtaken by Nature. |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Mon Aug 12 09:51:05 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by SMAZ on Mon Aug 12 06:52:03 2013. what about the other tunnels that I mentioned. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Aug 12 14:16:04 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by SMAZ on Mon Aug 12 06:43:37 2013. I'd say there's some more reading to do there. :) |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Aug 12 15:53:13 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Aug 12 14:16:04 2013. As I mentioned, until the approximate time the subway was built out there Pitkin stopped at Ruby St which continues as 75 St on the qns side of the border and was through routes to South Rd some time in the 1940s similarly to the way 6 Av in Manhattan was through routed from W 3 St to canal St and connected to Church St. I also mentioned in another post, I heard somewhere that construction was halted due to the contractors encountering soil problems in the area and since that area has a high water table, it could be possible that further construction was determined to be either prohibitively expensive of impossible altogether. What is known is that the "mainline" of the Pitkin Av subway is well below the level of the K tracks leading to Grant and the A7 and A8 yd leads coming from Pitkin Yd so that considering the drop off in the grade level of Pitkin Av/South Rd in that area should have placed the 4 track subway infrastructure relatively close to the surface had construction been continued. |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Aug 12 16:00:23 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by NorthShore on Sun Aug 11 20:10:44 2013. If you check with NYC history, you will find that the immediate post LaGuardia administration was fraught with corruption which is why Mayor O'Dwyer had to resign his position. According to a report I mentioned from 1951, there was still money for expansion since the map in that report in addition to showing the SAS shows a completed connection form the IND Qns Blvd Line down the LIRR ROW and connecting with the branch coming off the Fulton St el at Liberty Jct. That map also indicates that between 1948 when the Subway opened to Euclid and 1951, the city had given up on extending the Pitkin Av subway farther opting instead for a connection to the LIRR ROW directly from the Fulton St el structure. |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Aug 12 16:01:38 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Aug 12 14:16:04 2013. As I mentioned, until the approximate time the subway was built out there Pitkin stopped at Ruby St which continues as 75 St on the qns side of the border and was through routes to South Rd some time in the 1940s similarly to the way 6 Av in Manhattan was through routed from W 3 St to canal St and connected to Church St. I also mentioned in another post, I heard somewhere that construction was halted due to the contractors encountering soil problems in the area and since that area has a high water table, it could be possible that further construction was determined to be either prohibitively expensive of impossible altogether. What is known is that the "mainline" of the Pitkin Av subway is well below the level of the K tracks leading to Grant and the A7 and A8 yd leads coming from Pitkin Yd so that considering the drop off in the grade level of Pitkin Av/South Rd in that area should have placed the 4 track subway infrastructure relatively close to the surface had construction been continued. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Aug 12 16:08:52 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by randyo on Mon Aug 12 15:53:13 2013. I would imagine so if the drop is as large as Smaz indicates. And as far as the water table goes ... well ... Nostrand. They probably could have done something, even a caisson, if they really wanted to and had the spare bucks. :) |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Aug 12 16:55:54 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Aug 12 16:08:52 2013. As I mentioned, if not absolutely impossible, it was probably deemed prohibitively expensive so the B of T opted instead for Liberty Jct. Originally, had the Pitkin subway been extended to connect with the LIRR ROW, the existing BMT signaling in place at the time east (RR south) of Hudson St interlocking was to have been used. Even the construction of the ramp from the Fulton St el and the new tower and associated signal equipment proved to be cheaper than dong the necessary construction to make the Pitkin subway extension feasible. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Aug 12 17:14:04 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by randyo on Mon Aug 12 16:55:54 2013. Of that I'm certain, or the Nostrand line might have gotten finished as well. Yeah, heard that when Pitkin was being built, it was waterworld and then some the further they got. And that el was right there, definitely see why they did what they did. |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Aug 12 17:28:53 2013, in response to Re: Seinfeld Subway Episode, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Aug 12 17:14:04 2013. Although the subway was planned to extend farther down Pitkin to and a bit beyond the LIRR ROW, one would think that the city's architects would have investigate the area to determine if construction should even have been attempted there. As far as Nostrand, even though that area also has a high water table, the line S/O Ave M as well as the IND's Utica Av subway also S/O Ave M was intended to be elevated rather than in a subway. |
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