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| DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms (1169105) | |
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| (1169105) | |
DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 28 13:04:02 2012 Malvern Patch
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Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Sat Jul 28 15:24:22 2012, in response to DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 28 13:04:02 2012. I'd like bathrooms, but i cringe to think what they would look like. |
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| (1169139) | |
Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 28 15:54:27 2012, in response to Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms, posted by orange blossom special on Sat Jul 28 15:24:22 2012. They'd be ADA bathrooms now. Huge inside with a single wheelchair-spec toilet in one corner. |
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| (1169157) | |
Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Jul 28 16:40:26 2012, in response to DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 28 13:04:02 2012. This is to head-off design of the SL-VI car. |
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| (1169205) | |
Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms |
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Posted by R36 #9346 on Sat Jul 28 19:59:48 2012, in response to Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 28 15:54:27 2012. Better than a hole in the floor! |
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| (1169213) | |
Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 28 20:47:56 2012, in response to Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms, posted by R36 #9346 on Sat Jul 28 19:59:48 2012. False dilemma. That's not the only other alternative. |
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| (1169214) | |
Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms |
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Posted by B1bus on Sat Jul 28 20:48:27 2012, in response to Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms, posted by R36 #9346 on Sat Jul 28 19:59:48 2012. Like when they were stuck on the Roosevelt Island tram? |
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| (1169246) | |
Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Jul 28 22:57:34 2012, in response to Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 28 20:47:56 2012. Absolutely, because the alternative is no toilet. You're not going to be allowed to discriminate against the disabled, no matter how much you like the idea of eugenics. |
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| (1169247) | |
Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Jul 28 22:59:30 2012, in response to DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 28 13:04:02 2012. Now if only they could start another petition to put a wheelchair lift under the high platform-only door. |
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| (1169276) | |
Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Jul 29 06:49:11 2012, in response to Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms, posted by WillD on Sat Jul 28 22:59:30 2012. No. They are ADA compliant as it is. One more thing to break and delay trains. |
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| (1169295) | |
Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Sun Jul 29 08:54:18 2012, in response to Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms, posted by WillD on Sat Jul 28 22:57:34 2012. How is your theory on racial engineering and selective breeding any different than what you claim to be eugenics? |
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| (1169296) | |
Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Sun Jul 29 08:54:46 2012, in response to Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 28 15:54:27 2012. I'm not talking about style, I'm talking about soaked floors and excrement on the walls. |
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| (1169297) | |
Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Sun Jul 29 08:55:10 2012, in response to Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms, posted by Joe V on Sun Jul 29 06:49:11 2012. That's his goal. |
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| (1169323) | |
Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Jul 29 11:35:24 2012, in response to Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms, posted by Joe V on Sun Jul 29 06:49:11 2012. No. They are ADA compliant as it is.No SEPTA train is ADA compatible at a low platform station. Wheelchair lifts would fix that. One more thing to break and delay trains. Where are the massive delays Metra and Caltrain clearly must be subject to if we are to believe this lie regarding the maintenance of wheelchair lifts? Lifts are a hell of a lot cheaper than high platforming every station and allow a nearly fully ADA compatible system in as little time as it takes to deploy the next generation of railcar. |
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| (1169324) | |
Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Jul 29 11:38:40 2012, in response to Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms, posted by orange blossom special on Sun Jul 29 08:54:18 2012. Clearly you replied to the wrong person, because I was not the one who expressed disdain for the disabled, elderly, and otherwise non-ambulatory members of our society because they have the gall to inconvenience Olog. |
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| (1169337) | |
Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms |
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Posted by RiverLINE3501 on Sun Jul 29 12:38:06 2012, in response to DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 28 13:04:02 2012. There really is no need for bathrooms on SEPTA trains because the rides are relatively short. For example, on an Elwyn express the time it took from Market East to Elwyn was a swift 40 minutes. Most people [who have common sense] just go potty before leaving work, or at the station bathrooms.Now some of us have health issues and if you really know your body, you can take care of business BEFORE boarding the train [like me who is diabetic. Since I have to pee frequently, I pee before boarding the train, avoiding liquids during the trip. If worse gets to worse, then the location of most stations affords me that emergency place to let go. Of course if I was female, or if I had to do the No. 2 then that's a different scenario.], likewise if you have small children, or a member of the Depends crowd, making sure that you go before you go will go a long way. SEPTA doesn't need the extra expense of maintaining sanitary facilities for the trains like NJT and MTA does. Train rides are short andpassengers have to adjust their routines to accommondate bathroom time before riding the train. |
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| (1169347) | |
Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Jul 29 13:08:24 2012, in response to Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms, posted by WillD on Sun Jul 29 11:35:24 2012. Metra and Caltrain do not have high level platforms nor does each and every car have a wheelchair lift.SEPTA has mini high level platforms at most "low level' stations with a bridge plate. You are simply WRONG about SEPTA, ADA, and the necessity of equipping every car with a lift. |
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| (1169370) | |
Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms |
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Posted by kp5308 on Sun Jul 29 15:38:09 2012, in response to Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms, posted by WillD on Sun Jul 29 11:35:24 2012. No SEPTA train is ADA compatible at a low platform station.SEPTA started out with those little HLPs with an access ramp made of precast concrete. The idea was to limit as much machinery that needs to be maintained both on & off the train:  They have gone to great lengths to achieve this. Witness the Croydon structure to elimimate an elevator:  And Ryers:  |
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| (1169373) | |
Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Jul 29 16:01:31 2012, in response to Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms, posted by kp5308 on Sun Jul 29 15:38:09 2012. It's fun to laugh at them, but they have done very well with a shoe-string capital budget.Only they, the NYCT, BART, and CTA can keep heavy rail 1960's MU cars of one type or another running beyond design life and expectations into this decade. |
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| (1169378) | |
Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Jul 29 16:18:28 2012, in response to Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms, posted by kp5308 on Sun Jul 29 15:38:09 2012. The current law says full, length, same-level boarding. But the fact is, it is "accessible" (with a lower case 'c') without letting the ADA lawyers gunk up the works with needless engineering projects that often can't be funded, or done so at the exclusion of higher prioritiesFor that reason, Amtrak will have to put up 450' long platforms with wheelchair lifts at stations like Browning and Libby, MT whereas 30' would do just fine for the number of boardings. |
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| (1169389) | |
Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms |
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Posted by merrick1 on Sun Jul 29 16:55:37 2012, in response to Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms, posted by Joe V on Sun Jul 29 16:01:31 2012. MBTA Red Line 1500 and 1600 series cars are from 1969 with no replacements in sight.Montreal's MR63 cars are from from 1966 with replacements on order. |
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| (1169396) | |
Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Jul 29 17:31:20 2012, in response to Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms, posted by Joe V on Sun Jul 29 13:08:24 2012. Metra and Caltrain do not have high level platformsYes, that makes their wheelchair lifts even more difficult to implement because they have to be integrated into the steps on the Gallery cars. SEPTA has a door which goes unused at low platform stations under which a prospective Silverliner VI could have the wheelchair lift installed without interfering with the low platform operation when it is not needed. nor does each and every car have a wheelchair lift. SEPTA doesn't have to do that either. Order the Silverliner VIs to be compatible with the Vs and operate trains consisting of a mix of ADA compliant VIs and non-compliant Vs, like Boston and Portland have done with their LRVs. In general SEPTA's trains are short enough that moving a wheelchair passenger a car length or two to board should not significantly impact the schedule. That is, at least when compared to the utter mess that resulted when an NJT NEC train with 2-3 Comet IIMs in the consist managed to stop with the nearest Comet III, IV, or V more than 160 feet from the nearest wheelchair loading location. SEPTA has mini high level platforms at most "low level' stations with a bridge plate. Except that they don't. Out of 153 total stations in the Regional Rail system just about 60 are ADA compatible, and many of those are high platform stations. That's just over a third of the total network, and probably close to a fifth of all low platform stations being equipped to accommodate the needs of wheelchair passengers. SEPTA faces a major capital expenditure if they're to convert the entire Regional Rail network to an ADA compatible system within even on a 25 year schedule. Wheelchair lifts avert that expenditure, allowing SEPTA to decouple their high platform construction efforts from ADA compliance and instead focus on installing high platforms at heavily used stations where the reduction in dwell time can have a greater impact on schedules. It's also worth noting that a wheelchair lift is a lot more forgiving than a mini-high in an operational sense. While a wheelchair passenger has to be placed in the proper car which will align with the mini-high upon boarding at a high platform station, and then that car has to be spotted properly (and thus, slowly) at that passenger's station, the wheelchair lift equipped car can be spotted just like any other station stop. And of course, wheelchair lifts need not be external. The Swedish X50 Regina EMUs have a dedicated low platform door with an internal wheelchair lift that raises and turns the wheelchair passenger, and doubles as handrails for the stairs when not in use. Beyond that the SJ Green Train concept would have the entire entryway raise and lower to the platform height to provide completely barrierless travel. You are simply WRONG about SEPTA, ADA, I'll admit there are some stations in the system where accessibility is less a matter of getting the wheelchair passenger from the platform to the train, and more a matter of getting them from the street to the platform. Wheelchair lifts will not solve those problems. But high platforms cannot physically be installed in some locations on the SEPTA system without major, expensive, changes to the track layout at those locations. Wheelchair lifts provide an affordable alternative to an extremely costly undertaking. and the necessity of equipping every car with a lift. Again, every car does not need to be equipped with a wheelchair lift. But every train would need to have a car in the consist with a wheelchair lift. |
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| (1169401) | |
Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Jul 29 17:40:58 2012, in response to Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms, posted by kp5308 on Sun Jul 29 15:38:09 2012. SEPTA started out with those little HLPs with an access ramp made of precast concreteOf course, but a mini-high level platform is still a high level platform, not a low platform. It represents a not insignificant investment of capital budget resources to construct a mini-high, and provides none of the station dwell improvements a full high platform provides. And in any event, they're now non-compliant as well, so it's not really worth mentioning them in the first place. The idea was to limit as much machinery that needs to be maintained both on & off the train: Because the bridge plate getting stuck in its holder because the lock has jammed in its months of inactivity is somehow preferable to a piece of equipment on a train which can be brought in, tested, and serviced on a daily basis. |
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Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms |
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Posted by R36 #9346 on Sun Jul 29 17:55:53 2012, in response to Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 28 20:47:56 2012. There's also the squat toilet. |
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| (1169406) | |
Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jul 29 17:59:06 2012, in response to Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms, posted by R36 #9346 on Sun Jul 29 17:55:53 2012. Don't think the ADA approved that one . . . |
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| (1169421) | |
Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms |
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Posted by kp5308 on Sun Jul 29 18:23:15 2012, in response to Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms, posted by WillD on Sun Jul 29 17:40:58 2012. It represents a not insignificant investment of capital budget resources to construct a mini-high, and provides none of the station dwell improvements a full high platform provides.That is not how SEPTA sees it. And in any event, they're now non-compliant as well, so it's not really worth mentioning them in the first place. Sure it is "worth mentioning" because this must be a recent change. Langhorne has one that was built new last year:  Because the bridge plate getting stuck in its holder because the lock has jammed in its months of inactivity is somehow preferable to a piece of equipment on a train which can be brought in, tested, and serviced on a daily basis. According to an employee the plates & their associated hardware are inspected on a regular basis. What "regular" means I don't know but I do believe they are not as neglected as you make them out to be. |
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| (1169428) | |
Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms |
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Posted by kp5308 on Sun Jul 29 18:48:10 2012, in response to Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms, posted by Joe V on Sun Jul 29 16:01:31 2012. It's fun to laugh at them, but they have done very well with a shoe-string capital budget.I'm not "laughing" at them. Sheeesh... |
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| (1169440) | |
Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Jul 29 19:53:33 2012, in response to Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms, posted by kp5308 on Sun Jul 29 18:23:15 2012. They are cheap solutions and they work, even if the ADA lawyers would prefer nothing over this. |
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| (1169505) | |
Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Jul 29 22:36:07 2012, in response to Re: DVARP petition for SEPTA regional rail bathrooms, posted by kp5308 on Sun Jul 29 18:23:15 2012. Sure it is "worth mentioning" because this must be a recent change. Langhorne has one that was built new last year:Langhorne station is not ADA compatible, mini-high or no. But that has more to do with the fact that they *cannot* build a mini-high or high platform with SEPTA trains using the middle track there. People with wheelchairs can ride into the city, but they're SOL if they want to go home. Of course if they were using rolling stock equipped with wheelchair lifts it'd be a relatively simple matter to make a curb-cut in the platform edge and set the passenger down on the area passengers already alight onto so they can roll away. That is not how SEPTA sees it. That doesn't much matter, because they're the ones who blew $1.4 million on a station improvement which doesn't even make the station ADA compatible. According to an employee the plates & their associated hardware are inspected on a regular basis. Of course! We're relying on SEPTA's maintenance forces to drive around and inspect the 200 or so locks throughout the system which are exposed to just about anyone who wants to deface, damage, or otherwise break something while they wait for the train. That's *so* much better than having around 100 wheelchair lifts which are carried into the yard every night for maintenance alongside the rest of an EMU's components. What "regular" means I don't know but I do believe they are not as neglected as you make them out to be. My experiences with wheelchairs on commuter trains mostly revolve around NJT and have invariably involved ludicrously long waits as the bridge plate is retrieved. But that's mostly because in all my travels on SEPTA I've seen a wheelchair passenger on maybe one or two occasions. More than likely this is because the system is so implacably hostile to anyone who cannot ascend from their top of rail level platforms and accompanying 1950s-style rolling stock. |
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