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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Wed Feb 2 02:40:11 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Feb 1 23:42:33 2011. Seeing those 5 foot drops, it's definitely not possible to disprove the existence of a subway infrastructure along Pitkin Av since the subway would be well below the drop area. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Feb 2 06:09:07 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jan 31 22:17:26 2011. Everybody always says "well if we could dig under the yards on the corner of Pitkin of 76th, we would find out what's there".Well, the 1951 pic IS that dig. What can be more clear than a photo that shows the exposed below grade lots at those intersections before there was anything else built there? And in the immediate aftermath of its alleged construction and heyday of it's purported use as a relay and storage site at that. What can possible be more conclusive? There is no station there. There is at most some tunnel with an emergency exit. Nothing more. Nothing. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Feb 2 06:19:09 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Feb 1 19:39:58 2011. Exactly. My post is not hearsay.It's an explained analysis of that fairly clear aerial photo which anyone can observe and then add their own observations about. That unimpeachable picture shows that the hearsay about a full finished station at the location is bunk. A myth. A hoax. Too many people here are driven to believe such fantasies over what human eyes make crystal clear in that photo. It doesn't mean people lied about seeing a partially tiled section of tunnel but that could have been a shell of a shell. The platform they stood upon was probably nothing more than a short raised access to an emergency exit. I see something that could be just that on the SW corner of Pitkin/76. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Feb 2 06:28:32 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Feb 1 07:38:59 2011. The concrete roof of a mezzanine and whichever side the platform was on would have still been exposed and would have extended for the whole block or more. You don't even have sidewalk there yet and the area below grade shows no signs of any extended concrete structure. Just a dirt lot. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Feb 2 06:44:28 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Wed Feb 2 02:40:11 2011. But why the absence of sidewalk on that section in the '51 pic?They build a mostly finished subway station that would extend into the adjacent lots and don't even bother to extend sidewalks over the finished station? Complete with sidewalks, Pitkin, is wider at Drew St (where the sidewalks end) than it is at Ruby or 76th. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Wed Feb 2 07:06:33 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 31 21:07:20 2011. A subway may be there but not a station.That's what I'm starting to believe. IMO, when the Euclid Ave station and tunnel complex was constructed, I feel that the tunnels to 76th St. were just built, but no station was constructed. If the City and the BoT was certain that the line would be extended in the years past WWII why go through the expense to build a station. If and when the line would be extended, then build the station. Did any of the tunnel pockets for proposed lines, especially the IND second system, have a station built after the bell mouth ? Nope, just a tunnel pocket. If the second system was built, then the tunnels would be connected with stations. The only thing that will make me back track on the 76th St. controversy is photographic proof of construction and documented proof in city government that a station was built. other than that, we're rehashing this myth on what someone claims they saw or who knew someone who claimed they saw and is not alive today. Bill Newkirk |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 2 07:31:38 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 00:26:49 2011. Who's not believing your "research", your reasearch didn't bring up any positive proof that the station exists, other than it was definitely "PLANNED". We all know it was planned, no one is disputing that, but being planned doesn't prove it was actually built. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 2 07:33:22 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Wed Feb 2 06:28:32 2011. There is no proof of "below grade" except along Ruby St where they dug out for foundations of new construction. The rest all appears level. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 2 07:35:37 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Wed Feb 2 06:19:09 2011. I don't believe 76th St was built, but there is nothing in the 1951 photo that proves that either way. You are manufacturing deep drops which are not evident or even hinted at in that photo. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 2 07:37:29 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Wed Feb 2 06:09:07 2011. There "are" no "below grade lots, and even if there were there's no telling if it's 5 inches or 20 feet. This is perhaps the most asinine reasoning against it yet, even more absurd than some of the "proof" for it.The only noticeable "drop in grade" is where they are building foundations for homes along the east side of Ruby St in that photo. That's it. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 2 07:41:15 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Newkirk Images on Wed Feb 2 07:06:33 2011. The problem with your reasoning is that at the time east of Euclid was NOT part of the "second system" provision, it was part of the actual line they were building from East New York. It wasn't a part of some sort of provision for "future" construction, it was a part of the actual line they were building. The war stopped construction, construction was not finished when it stopped. All the shells to Euclid were built at that time, it's not out of the realm of possibility that it went as far as 76th St too.That's not saying it did, but it is saying that it wasn't a "provision". |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 2 07:46:03 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Wed Feb 2 06:44:28 2011. But why the absence of sidewalk on that section in the '51 pic?Because there were no sidewalks yet. It was wasteland yet. But the drops could be 3 feet, could be 4 feet, could be 7 feet, but the subway could be 8 feet. No one knows how deep the subway is supposed to be there, even if it was built. They build a mostly finished subway station that would extend into the adjacent lots and don't even bother to extend sidewalks over the finished station? Nothing strange about that at all. The sidewalks would be silly to add if construction on the lots is not even done yet, especially in brand new construction. You usually see sidewalks around vacant land when a prior building was removed and the sidewalk is the sidewalk that was there when the old buildings were still there. With new construction, why risk putting in all the brand new sidewalks when it's likely to get damaged with all the construction and vehicles. And especially in an area where few people are even walking. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 08:10:36 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 2 07:31:38 2011. I was waiting for a reply from spider-pig on that one. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Feb 2 08:35:08 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 2 07:33:22 2011. Look at how the lot east of Ruby dramatically slopes down from Ruby St street. That hole in the ground then remains level with the adjacent lot on the SW corner of 76th/Pitkin meaning that they are more or less at the same grade since the gravel coming out of the side of Pitkin as it continues east shows no discernible gradient. Besides the shadows, it's those mounds of gravel that demonstrate that Pitkin is at a higher ground than all but the paved (and raised) roads.All the unpaved and unraised roads bisecting Pitkin ramp up when reaching it, then go down and ramp up again when reaching Liberty Av. Then look at the recent pics and you no longer see these grade differences because all those streets were raised. According to those photographs, if there is anywhere where a station may have been built there it's not at 76th but at 78th Street. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Feb 2 08:42:25 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 2 07:37:29 2011. The only noticeable "drop in grade" is where they are building foundations for homes along the east side of Ruby St in that photo. That's it.Yeah, building foundations that should have exposed station superstructure but doesn't. People want to dig today when that picture already shows a dig in 1951 if that's indeed a building foundation. Thanks for making my case. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Feb 2 08:49:24 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 2 07:46:03 2011. Without sidewalks covering it, the mezzanine and platform level would have been visible and exposed.The sidewalks serve as essentially the roof over the entryways to a subway station. The photo shows nothing. Nada. Zilch. Pitkin is too narrow there for a contained two-track (let alone a four-track) station to be self contained underneath the street alone. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Wed Feb 2 09:16:23 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 08:10:36 2011. You don't need to. *Any* impartial, rational person who had examined the evidence available would agree with Chris on this one. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 10:46:26 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Wed Feb 2 09:16:23 2011. there`s a reason. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 2 12:21:01 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 00:26:49 2011. You have not demonstrated any reason why we should believe you. I don't just believe random people because it's a nice thing to do. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 2 12:22:56 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Wed Feb 2 02:40:11 2011. I agree. |
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76th Street iDea |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 2 12:26:43 2011, in response to 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Jan 28 13:58:35 2011. During WWII (or was it during WWI?), the Atlantic Avenue tunnel was entered by officials who were working on leads that German spies/saboteurs were using the tunnel as a hideout.So: Let's figure out how to start a rumor that a terrorist cell is using 76th Street as a hideout. People will panic, and the MTA will either confirm that the station doesn't exist, or enter it to find the supposed terrorists. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 12:35:07 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 2 12:21:01 2011. who posted the artivle about the narrows tunnel. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 2 12:43:10 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 12:35:07 2011. How the fuck should I know? I've known about it for almost 15 years. It probably wasn't even a SubTalk post but instead something on nycsubway.org (or its old URL). |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 12:44:36 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 2 12:43:10 2011. it was posted on subchat as well in the ERA`S bulletin. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 2 12:52:29 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 12:44:36 2011. Subchat didn't exist yet. The ERA bulletin did but I've never read it. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 12:55:53 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 2 12:52:29 2011. you misunderstood me,this article was posted HERE several years ago,Idon`t know if it was posted on subtalk,though I highly doubdt it. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Feb 2 13:07:16 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 12:55:53 2011. History of S.I. to Brooklyn subway projects 1923 - 1955. (447397) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 2 14:03:11 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Wed Feb 2 08:42:25 2011. Yeah, building foundations that should have exposed station superstructure but doesn't.Building foundations on Ruby St? Any infastructure would not be along Ruby St, which is the only place it looks very deep because of building foundations going in. There's no way to determine how deep the lots are along Pitkin, or even if there is a drop. Furthermore, 5 feet is not that deep, subway infastruction would be lower than that anyway. People want to dig today when that picture already shows a dig in 1951 if that's indeed a building foundation. And that's along RUBY St, not Pitkin. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 2 14:08:42 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Wed Feb 2 08:49:24 2011. Without sidewalks covering it, the mezzanine and platform level would have been visible and exposed.Why? it would just be dirt on top of it. The sidewalks serve as essentially the roof over the entryways to a subway station. Not if "entries" were never built. This station would be a shell, not a full blown station. No one claims there were every stairways coming up from it. Construction may or may not have every gotten that far. Pitkin is too narrow there for a contained two-track (let alone a four-track) station to be self contained underneath the street alone. And dirt along it would be covering it. YOu make it sound like you know there are "10 foot drops" here. There may be 6 inches there may be 4 feet. None of that can be determined or seen from the photo. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 2 14:12:16 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Wed Feb 2 08:35:08 2011. Any subway infastructure would be well below 5 feet of the street. Buildings are always along most of the subways in NYC, and have full basements which do NOT interfere with the subway infastructure, as it's below them. Even the buildings along the IRT Contract one lines, which are very shallow and four tracks wide with stations, have full basements that don't interfere with the subway infastructure. |
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Re: 76th Street iDea |
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Posted by Randyo on Wed Feb 2 15:58:13 2011, in response to 76th Street iDea, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 2 12:26:43 2011. Hmmmmm! |
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Re: 76th Street iDea |
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Posted by Teddmann on Wed Feb 2 16:02:28 2011, in response to 76th Street iDea, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 2 12:26:43 2011. That's so hysterical...it just might work!If it were not for the fact that it probably violates a number laws (like shouting FIRE in a theater)...it's a good idea. |
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Re: 76th Street iDea |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 16:04:00 2011, in response to 76th Street iDea, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 2 12:26:43 2011. Since you brought up WW1 thats when the feds broke thru the tunnel wall to look for german spies.Heres food for thought.maybe,just maybe no records exsist of 76st.because of national security,not as far fetched as it sounds.construction was stopped in may of 1942. |
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Re: 76th Street iDea |
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Posted by Randyo on Wed Feb 2 16:12:08 2011, in response to Re: 76th Street iDea, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 16:04:00 2011. Don't you mean WWII? |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Feb 2 16:21:02 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 2 07:35:37 2011. That's the problem *I* have with the theory here. I do recall hearing that there was some sort of stairway or more than one that came up to the street and was "covered over" when the "project" was abandoned. And I've had to deal with aerial photos when I was with the PSC. The ones here are SO irresolute though (PSC and other state agencies had a standard contract for "flyovers" as needed - state used it for monitoring WTC when the towers fell as well) as to be useless for much more than guessing like we've all been doing elsewhere in this thread.So at best we might have signs that there are no stairways to the street coming up from what should be a rather deep station shell in the 1951 photo, but at the same time this "work" happened back in the 40's and likely any signs of what had been done had been removed by 1951, making the 1951 photos largely useless. The shell could still be there, but it would be at least 20 feet down to the roof assuming that it's there anyway. And it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that any stairs leading up from it to the street would have been removed and buried just to ensure no trespassers. While the photos are interesting, there isn't sufficient detail in them to arrive at any conclusions either way and further, neither of them was taken sufficiently close in time to the supposed work done there to be able to provide any hints one way or the other. So about all I see having happened here is bringing yet another unsolved mystery into the cloud here - namely that there were reports of a stairway to the street outside a building that has an unusual setback (IIRC) where an IND stairway would have fit perfectly. Heh. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Wed Feb 2 16:25:45 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 2 07:37:29 2011. The more the reconstruction of the lots in that area is discussed, the more reasons turn up for why there is no evidence of subway construction observable form street level. Depending on the time line for the realignment of Pitkin Av vis a vis subway construction in the area there is definitely a valid reason why there may be no traces of provisions for station entrances. The photo shows no sidewalks in the area where subway entrances might have been. If between the time a station shell might have been constructed and the time the area developed enough to install sidewalks, the city abandoned plans to make use of that portion of the tunnel, then it is highly likely that any sidewalks would have been installed without any regard for subway entrances since it would have been obvious that any station built underneath would never be used. The same would be true of emergency exits and ventilation gratings. As I mentioned in several posts, a 1950 city report I saw somewhere on line shows the Liberty Av structure connecting to the LIRR ROW at what is now Liberty Jct. That would have meant that as early as a year before the 1951 photo, it was known that the B of T was no longer interested in making use of whatever may have been built there. Thus when the time came for the city ti install sidewalks after the photo was taken, there would have been no reason to allow for anything relating to subway construction. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Feb 2 16:32:25 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Newkirk Images on Wed Feb 2 07:06:33 2011. Just to throw another fly into the soup for giggles ... station and mezzanine construction likely wouldn't happen until the station itself was structurally complete (I mean steelwork and concrete, not tiles) whereupon the structure above would be built up after the foundation and base were done. So it isn't outside the realm of possibility for the station shell and roof to have even been completed before any work on that above it would proceed. POSSIBLY the timing was such that they didn't get that far, or perhaps they did and the roof was never placed on a mezzanine and that which was done was backfilled at the surface, leaving only the floor of the mezzanine and nothing above it.SLED TIME! Heh. |
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Re: 76th Street iDea |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 16:34:02 2011, in response to Re: 76th Street iDea, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 16:04:00 2011. yeah,forgot to post it. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 16:38:53 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Feb 2 16:21:02 2011. I was told the samething.stairways to the street cemented over.No handrails on the staircases.Tracks A7&A8 in use from 1948 to 1952. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 16:42:39 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Wed Feb 2 16:25:45 2011. There also was a proposal to conn.the jamaica EL into the rockaway div.upon BOT takeover.This was to be from the bklyn end. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Wed Feb 2 16:47:01 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 2 07:41:15 2011. The problem with your reasoning is that at the time east of Euclid was NOT part of the "second system" provision.I wasn't referring to the Euclid Ave station and tunnel complex, but all other subway projects for provision for new lines. A tunnel pocket and maybe some section of tunnel. No station built. For instance, the current (E) train diverts off of the Queensboro line at Briarwood-Van Wyck station. the tunnel leading down to a new line was built and sat disused until it was connected the Archer Ave. line was built. Since they were building this line, why didn't they build a station on Van Wyck Blvd ? Maybe they weren't sure of the IND Second System would be built. I was always neutral on the 76th St. station controversy. it did make for some lively chat and divert us away from the flame wars that creep up here now and then. That being said, proof please, construction photos and/or some documented proof of subway station construction in that area. Bill Newkirk |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Wed Feb 2 16:53:38 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Feb 2 16:32:25 2011. Just to throw another fly into the soup for giggles ... station and mezzanine construction likely wouldn't happen until the station itself was structurally complete (I mean steelwork and concrete, not tiles) whereupon the structure above would be built up after the foundation and base were done. So it isn't outside the realm of possibility for the station shell and roof to have even been completed before any work on that above it would proceed. POSSIBLY the timing was such that they didn't get that far, or perhaps they did and the roof was never placed on a mezzanine and that which was done was backfilled at the surface, leaving only the floor of the mezzanine and nothing above it.Yeah, I'll buy that. That would rule out construction photos. We could go on for years talking about this, but we will only grow older ! Bill Newkirk |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Wed Feb 2 17:09:43 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 16:38:53 2011. As I mentioned in another post, since it doesn't appear that there were any sidewalks built in the are till after the 1951 photo, It may be possible that when they were built, they were built without any provisions for stairways or gratings since by that time the city had abandoned any plans for using anything that may have been constructed. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Wed Feb 2 17:11:11 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 16:42:39 2011. Interesting. Is there any kind of map available of that proposal? |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 17:16:23 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 16:42:39 2011. It was in an ERA bulletin.I,ve got it somewhere,but my somewhere goes back to 1971 when I first joined& yes I,ve got most of them. |
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Re: 76th Street iDea |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Wed Feb 2 17:20:45 2011, in response to 76th Street iDea, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 2 12:26:43 2011. People will panic, and the MTA will either confirm that the station doesn't exist, or enter it to find the supposed terrorists.Maybe enter it and find Judge Crater, Jimmy Hoffa and Elvis ! Bill Newkirk |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 17:24:37 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Newkirk Images on Wed Feb 2 07:06:33 2011. Can we count roosvelt ave.upper level. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 17:24:37 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Newkirk Images on Wed Feb 2 07:06:33 2011. Can we count roosvelt ave.upper level. |
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Re: 76th Street iDea |
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Posted by Joe Saitta on Wed Feb 2 17:27:56 2011, in response to 76th Street iDea, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 2 12:26:43 2011. Because of the supposed tunnel's nearby location to Howard Beach, I have often had a gut feeling that perhaps there is / was an entrance to that tunnel, known to members of the underworld, who used it to line the catwalks with those in the mob who were not fortunate enough to no longer see the light of day. |
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Re: 76th Street iDea |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 17:31:50 2011, in response to Re: 76th Street iDea, posted by Joe Saitta on Wed Feb 2 17:27:56 2011. And being EYE-TAL-YON you of all people should know,MA-ROOOOOOON! |
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