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| Re: 76st what happened? (1030985) | |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 31 15:00:50 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 03:05:15 2011. I don't think the promise of subway construction would survive in property records. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 15:43:53 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jan 29 20:23:02 2011. Where can I find the image from 1951? I tried NYC.gov with no success whatsoever. |
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Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jan 31 15:50:34 2011, in response to Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 14:20:48 2011. Too many years to remember any of the details, but I was told by one of the oldheads that they did have a portable unit or two SOMEWHERE. Could have been during construction, could have been a backup in case something went wrong somewhere else, I don't remember because I wasn't terribly interested at the time as the tower guy was telling us about it. But at some point, they did have some sort of boxes that could be "set up anywhere it was needed" and was used somewhere on a platform in a station somewhere. Sorry I ain't much help, really wasn't paying attention at the time since I had other things I was expected to be focusing on. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Mon Jan 31 16:07:45 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 14:36:19 2011. . |
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Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Mon Jan 31 16:10:46 2011, in response to Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 14:05:08 2011. I don`t know,I do know thats the documentation I saw,all switches are to be controlled by the 76st.tower. |
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Re: Time to put this myth to rest Was: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Mon Jan 31 16:21:55 2011, in response to Re: Time to put this myth to rest Was: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Jan 30 07:47:02 2011. to gp38,t.s.&rando.checkbrennan`s page at brennan/rails/disued.underground.htlm]this is from my hard copy. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 31 16:31:36 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 31 08:45:44 2011. Click the chain icon! |
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Re: Time to put this myth to rest Was: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Mon Jan 31 16:35:51 2011, in response to Re: Time to put this myth to rest Was: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Mon Jan 31 16:21:55 2011. Also,I can`t find hardcopy on bedford& nostrand on the G line.this info is from a list of abandoned stations taken from brennan`s site 11 years ago& mailed to me by a friend.brennan did mention that location as a provision for the BMT ext.into QBP.it is below the ind& is actually the roof of the G. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 31 16:35:51 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 15:43:53 2011. http://www.subchat.com/read.asp?Id=1031515See the 1924 map? Click the camera icon to make the "years" slider appear, then slide it to 1951. It should transition to 1951. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by kahlua on Mon Jan 31 16:51:23 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Jan 30 23:35:06 2011. Do you even have a drivers license, you idiot? You are not allowed to exceed the speed limit to pass..."When passing other vehicles or changing lanes to avoid hazards, do so with caution and only when necessary. You must not exceed the speed limit to pass another vehicle." Source: NYS Drivers Manual http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/dmanual/chapter06-manual.htm |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Mon Jan 31 16:52:46 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by kahlua on Mon Jan 31 16:51:23 2011. It's not Terrapin Station who is the idiot: he was summarizing tunnelrat's strange view of the laws of the road. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Mon Jan 31 16:56:17 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Mon Jan 31 16:52:46 2011. he`s not? there`s the proof in black&white about passing.are you hard of reading?you just proved it. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 17:14:53 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 31 16:35:51 2011. OK. thanks. |
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Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 17:21:49 2011, in response to Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jan 31 15:50:34 2011. There are photos of similar towers on the IRT which did have temporary terminals during varying stages of construction but none anywhere else. It would have been difficult for the IND to do something like that since unlike the IRT, the iND alternated between GRS and US&S which the IRT did not. |
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Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jan 31 17:28:40 2011, in response to Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 17:21:49 2011. Years later, I'd now be curious as to how they'd manage to wire those things up ... but the guy I talked to back then said they did it. Somewhere. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 17:29:36 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Jan 30 07:19:26 2011. The 1924 photo shows almost no housing in the area and the 1951 photo hardly shows any increase in housing construction at all and most of the houses that were there were north of Pitkin towards Liberty. Thus even if Pitkin were to be massively dug up for subway construction, its unlikely many people would notice or care especially since many going to work would be walking away from Pitkin to Liberty to catch the Fulton St El. |
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Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Mon Jan 31 18:13:27 2011, in response to Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jan 31 03:52:48 2011. The difference is that 76th Street does appear on the track board, but nothing past 179th Street does.Nevertheless, there is a completely blank side of the model board at 179th Street Tower, so if the line was extended east, there would be room for it on the panel. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by teddmann on Mon Jan 31 18:14:24 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 17:29:36 2011. >> The 1924 photo shows almost no housing in the area and the 1951 photo hardly shows any increase in housing construction.I saw the same thing, looks like a good place to place a station. It's just too bad there were no aerial images from late-30's to early 40's. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jan 31 19:19:48 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 31 16:35:51 2011. Yeah, don't feel bad, it took me a while to figure out how to use that site, it's not all that user friendly. It took me at least 20 minutes to figure out that clicking that camera thing will finally give you the choice of years. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jan 31 19:23:27 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 31 08:08:11 2011. I don't see how anything is disproven with the 1951 image. I am not one of the people claiming it must be there, but to be fair, also, I can't see how the 1951 proves anything one way or another. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Mon Jan 31 19:48:16 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 31 14:45:16 2011. That's my feeling as well. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 31 20:11:14 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 14:36:19 2011. I am not saying that the tunnel may not lead to 76th and beyond.What I'm saying is that the 1951 pic clearly demonstrates that there is no shell station on Pitkin on its intersections with both Ruby and 76th since the street is clearly on a higher ground above depressed empty lots north and south of it. Once can tell from the shadows cast that it's several feet above. Under such circumstances, a concrete shell should have been visible. Those lots were later built over with the houses present there now but unlike in the 1924 photo when there was absolutely nothing, the '51 photo shows a paved and raised Pitkin Av surrounded by below street level empty lots with no signs of a shell. We are essentially looking into the basements of today's structures there. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 31 20:31:47 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 31 14:45:16 2011. I never doubted the existence of a tunnel extension. However building the tunnel in a raised box form would leave little room for utilities and sewers which was the main reason for raising the street to begin with. If there were a completed station with tile, platforms, mezzanines, etc as the alleged eye witnesses have stated, a raised street with empty adjacent lots would have had the station structure visibly sticking out until a time it was built over by other buildings. Kinda like the (1) station at the WTC site.The '51 photo shows no such thing at Pitkin at Ruby or 76th St other than a raised Pitkin and empty below-street level lots. (I still have been incapable of posting the photo...) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 20:39:31 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by teddmann on Mon Jan 31 18:14:24 2011. I wonder though, if there might not be some sort of contract drawings or blueprints of the area during realignment. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 20:42:49 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 31 20:11:14 2011. The only pic I saw from 1951 doesn't clearly show anything one way or the other. Is there another photo that I didn't see that you are talking about? The photo I saw gets so blurry when you attempt to enlarge that you really can't see anything one way or the other. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 20:46:33 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 31 20:31:47 2011. As I mentioned in another post, the only 1951 photo I was able to access is so blurry when I enlarged it that I couldn't tell one way or the other what was or wasn't there. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jan 31 20:57:01 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 20:42:49 2011. Exactly. And even if the lots are lower, still doesn't prove there isn't a subway under there. They could drop off 3 feet, what does that prove? Again, while it certainly doesn't prove the subway was built, it doesn't prove it wasn't either. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 31 20:58:01 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 20:42:49 2011. You can see the raised Ruby St south of Pitkin and level with it while the portion north of Pitkin is still raw and dips before rising again atthe raised Glenmore St. 76th St is the opposite. Raised between Pitkin and Glenmore but dipping into "The Hole" south of it. You can tell from the mounds and the shadows. Notice Glenmore dropping east of 76th and then running level with its cross streets. No more mounds and shadows. This kind of photo would have shown any station structure on the intersections of Pitkin/Ruby and/or Pitkin/76th since the lots are empty and depressed by several feet. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jan 31 21:00:38 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 31 20:31:47 2011. How much do you even think these "lots drop off". It could be 6 inches, it could be 2 feet, it could be 3 feet. NOTHING is determined by the photo in the least. I am not one of the ones trying desperately to "prove" this thing is there, and have made many posts showing how it may not exist, but I see nothing in this 1951 photo that disproves anything. |
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Re: Time to put this myth to rest Was: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Mon Jan 31 21:04:06 2011, in response to Re: Time to put this myth to rest Was: 76st what happened?, posted by BMTLines on Sat Jan 29 21:31:57 2011. Wow, thanks for posting that!What is interesting is that it shows areas where track circuits were supposed to be installed (the occupancy lights are empty bubbles) vs future provisions (bubbles all filled in). Likewise the signals that are not part of the contract are shown in light print with no number or button. One possible explanation for the installation of the seemingly useless 114 and 124 approach signals is that would have been the limit of the Euclid interlocking plant. 76 St. would have clearly been controlled by some other interlocking. So these signals may have been installed simply to satisfy the GRS contractual requirements and close out the punch list. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 31 21:07:20 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jan 31 20:57:01 2011. A subway may be there but not a station.The drop there is considerely more than 3 feet. If the tunnel was indeed extended there, it certainly flooded a long time ago anyway or was later taken over by the sewer system. It would be like building and abandoning a tunnel in the Iron Triangle. |
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Re: Time to put this myth to rest Was: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by BMTLines on Mon Jan 31 21:11:54 2011, in response to Re: Time to put this myth to rest Was: 76st what happened?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jan 30 23:10:14 2011. While Area 51 may very well contain some national secrets, 76th Street certainly doesn't. There is no excuse for the MTA's silence on the issue. If we are supposed to be a democracy then government must reveal all to anyone who asks, with VERY FEW exceptions. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 31 21:15:34 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jan 31 21:00:38 2011. Look at the houses and look at the mounds and shadows. That should give you a sense of scale.You can also get an idea by going to "The Hole" and seeing how the older houses (and some newer ones) have their former front doors below street level many feet. The Hole: A Border Between Brooklyn and Queens from Vincent Xue on Vimeo. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jan 31 21:30:07 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 31 21:07:20 2011. The drop there is considerely more than 3 feet.Completely impossible to determine from the image. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 31 21:39:27 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jan 31 21:30:07 2011. That's because you "want to believe" (creepy music.....) 
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Mon Jan 31 21:46:00 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jan 31 21:30:07 2011. Not entirely. From the direction of the shadow, one can estimate the time of day, the elevation of the sun, and then the shadow length is proportional to the cotangent of the elevation of the sun. This would be very very approximate, but it should at least give an order of magnitude idea of things. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jan 31 21:57:46 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 31 21:15:34 2011. I spent 20 minutes watching that video, and fail to see what any of that has to do with "76th St and Pitkin". As far as I could tell, it was a propaganda video (not saying that's bad) for a plan to build a park, or try and clean up the small area dividing Howard Beach and East New York, and that's not really the Ozone Park area where 76th St/Pitkin is, and instead the other side of Conduit Ave.While an interesting video (to an extent), it really doesn't do anything to prove this station one way or the other, nor do I believe these "5 foot drops" on either side of Pitkin Ave in in 1951 images. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jan 31 22:02:14 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 31 21:39:27 2011. That's because you "want to believe" (creepy music.....)Uhm no, I have tossed out MANY reasons in these threads why it "probably" doesn't exist. I have made little or no posts in favor of the possibility. But at the same time, I am not going to manufacture some impossible to determine or prove facts of a "raised" 5 foot road either. There's plenty out there to try and show as cons for this to exist without manufacturing unprovable ones too. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by DHeese810 on Mon Jan 31 22:10:22 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jan 31 22:02:14 2011. Hey Guys, My name is Dan Heesemann and while im only a junior in HS,I'm an avid rail fan and have been following this thread for a WHILE. I may have some help for this street problem we have here...My father is an assessor for the NYC Law Dept and as such has access to many old maps for property value estimates nd such. Next Monday I have off and am planning to go to his office and scrounge threw the map archives. If anyone can give me something to shot for, I'd be happy to try to dig it up.-Dan H |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 31 22:11:04 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jan 31 22:02:14 2011. It's not the raised roadbed.It's the absense of any signs of a station in the depressed lots next to the road that is the dead giveaway. The raised road only gives us the the scale to measure what lies several feet beneath its sidewalks and beyond. Like I said, in that picture we are looking under the sidewalks as well as under the front yards and into the basements of today's houses there. It doesn't get any better than that. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jan 31 22:11:58 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 31 20:58:01 2011. Utter and complete hearsay. The only place where it slightly looks like the ground could be lower than the road is on Ruby St, on the right side, just south of Pitkin. I don't see any shadows anywhere else, even remotely looking like "more than 3 foot drops", in fact, it looks quite level, and you can CLEARLY see the old alignment of Old South Road north of Pitkin, just east of 76th St, if there was such a raise in the road, you wouldn't even see that anymore.There's plenty of stuff out there that can perhaps be no goers for this construction to exist, but this isn't one of them. 
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 31 22:12:18 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Mon Jan 31 21:46:00 2011. Exactly. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 22:12:26 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by DHeese810 on Mon Jan 31 22:10:22 2011. Thanks a lot. It could go a long way to helping solve the question if not solve it outright. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 22:13:31 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 31 22:11:04 2011. I didn't see any picture that shows anything under the sidewalks. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jan 31 22:14:20 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by DHeese810 on Mon Jan 31 22:10:22 2011. Sounds great, anything you can come up with would be welcome! |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 31 22:14:56 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by DHeese810 on Mon Jan 31 22:10:22 2011. Your efforts would be greatly appreciated Dan. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Mon Jan 31 22:15:22 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by DHeese810 on Mon Jan 31 22:10:22 2011. Hi Dan: Welcome to the board. I think what we might be looking for is an sign of a four track subway at 76 Street and Pitkin Avenue in Queens. It is most likely that nothing was ever built there but any information that you could provide would be welcome.And thank you for offering to help.Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 22:16:11 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jan 31 22:11:58 2011. That's then point I was trying to make unless there is another photo somewhere from a different angle that shows the area larger and more clearly. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jan 31 22:17:26 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 31 22:11:04 2011. But that is where this is complete hearsay. There's no evidence the "sidewalks" are that high above the lots. The only place it could be somewhat shown is on the east side of Ruby St, but thats about it. The land looks level along Pitkin, and espcially north of Pitkin. The shadow of that large building on the lower left corner show the sun is shining towards the upper right diagnal, as the shadow is seen north of the building, and east of the building (the sun coming from the southwest. As such, the entire north side of Pitkin should be in shadow if there was this "drop" to the lots. There is NO shadow north of Pitkin. There's no drop noticable even south of Pitkin. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jan 31 22:20:11 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 22:16:11 2011. There has to be another photo he's talking about, as it's not in this one. The land is completely level with Pitkin in this photo, except along Ruby St where it appears they dug out for foundations of new buildings. |
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