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| No DMU's in future, American Railcar gone. (1005382) | |
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| (1005382) | |
No DMU's in future, American Railcar gone. |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Nov 20 19:13:57 2010 St. Louis Business JournalWednesday, November 17, 2010, 5:32pm CST by Kelsey Volkmann > ...Nine months after forming it, American Railcar has dissolved a > joint venture created in February to build passenger railcars... > > ..."The decision to dissolve the joint venture was the result of > current market conditions for (Diesel Multiple Units) orders," > American Railcar said in the filing. |
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Re: No DMU's in future, American Railcar gone. |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Nov 20 22:18:15 2010, in response to No DMU's in future, American Railcar gone., posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Nov 20 19:13:57 2010. 
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Re: No DMU's in future, American Railcar gone. |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Nov 20 22:31:43 2010, in response to Re: No DMU's in future, American Railcar gone., posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Nov 20 22:18:15 2010. The link you are accessing has been blocked by the Barracuda Web Filter because it contains content belonging to the category of: Tasteless & Offensive
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: No DMU's in future, American Railcar gone. |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Nov 20 22:35:46 2010, in response to Re: No DMU's in future, American Railcar gone., posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Nov 20 22:31:43 2010. Probably blocks everything on memegenerator.com |
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| (1005444) | |
Re: No DMU's in future, American Railcar gone. |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Nov 20 22:38:59 2010, in response to Re: No DMU's in future, American Railcar gone., posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Nov 20 22:31:43 2010. It did not block that one.
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| (1005449) | |
Re: No DMU's in future, American Railcar gone. |
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Posted by chuchubob on Sat Nov 20 23:03:21 2010, in response to No DMU's in future, American Railcar gone., posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Nov 20 19:13:57 2010. Colorado Railcar in revenue service for Westside Express Service (WES) in Beaverton, OR; Sept 3, 2010  
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| (1005450) | |
American Railcar gone |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Nov 20 23:09:21 2010, in response to No DMU's in future, American Railcar gone., posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Nov 20 19:13:57 2010. Not like other companies don't build DMUs. |
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| (1005452) | |
Re: No DMU's in future, American Railcar gone. |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Nov 20 23:13:18 2010, in response to Re: No DMU's in future, American Railcar gone., posted by chuchubob on Sat Nov 20 23:03:21 2010. Man, that's fugly! |
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| (1005462) | |
Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Nov 20 23:36:54 2010, in response to American Railcar gone, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Nov 20 23:09:21 2010. Exactly right! Who needs a obsolete piece of junk like the CRC DMU when we have excellent DMUs from companies likeSiemens:  and Stadler:  and lesser DMUs from Miner/Kasgro  and some old manufacturer + Ingersoll Rand 
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| (1005465) | |
Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Nov 20 23:50:47 2010, in response to Re: No DMU's in future, American Railcar gone., posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Nov 20 23:13:18 2010. Yeah, that one turned out beastly. Don't get why they wanted to go with high platforms.Would have rathered that NJT went with FRA DMU for the "River Line". That, for all its bad looks, demonstrates why. |
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| (1005467) | |
Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Nov 21 00:27:38 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Nov 20 23:50:47 2010. Would have rathered that NJT went with FRA DMU for the "River Line". That, for all its bad looks, demonstrates why.Why? So we too could know the joy of a train which operates for a total of five hours a day? So we could have a train with an average speed exactly the same as what NJT built, despite having less than half the number of stations on a per mile basis? So we could have ridership which is nearly an eighth that of what we have now? So we could have NJT have to buy out the vehicle supplier in order to guarantee they actually get the vehicles they've contracted for? So we could operate a commuter rail line so wildly expensive it can never hope to even achieve a positive return on investment even when abstract elements such as improvement in the quality of life are factored in? There is ZERO improvement over the Riverline offered to the passenger by emulating a failing service like Westside Express, yet because you foam over one design versus another you expect us to take your pining for an inferior alternative seriously? |
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| (1005476) | |
Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Nov 21 00:52:56 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by WillD on Sat Nov 20 23:36:54 2010. Light Rail Vehicles are not railroad DMUs. We need something like a Budd RDC, not some European railbus where you can't even pass through the entire train. |
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| (1005477) | |
Re: No DMU's in future, American Railcar gone. |
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Posted by aem7ac on Sun Nov 21 01:07:08 2010, in response to No DMU's in future, American Railcar gone., posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Nov 20 19:13:57 2010. Good riddance. |
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| (1005479) | |
Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Nov 21 01:26:11 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Nov 21 00:52:56 2010. Maybe when he learns to think for himself, he might be interesting to debate. The RDC's the template for American DMUs; not the be all and end all, but the base. |
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| (1005480) | |
Re: No DMUs in future, American Railcar gone. |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Nov 21 01:26:43 2010, in response to Re: No DMU's in future, American Railcar gone., posted by aem7ac on Sun Nov 21 01:07:08 2010. Were they taking money out of your pocket? |
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| (1005484) | |
Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Nov 21 02:29:48 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Nov 21 01:26:11 2010. So your definition of 'thinking for yourself' is to simply copy the extremely outmoded methods which didn't work sixty years ago and do not stand a chance of working today? Very illuminating.The Westside Express is the clearest implementation of exactly what you're calling for, yet one would be hard pressed to define it as anything other than a miserable failure. It ran one quarter the cost of the Riverline yet manages barely one eighth the ridership. And because it is little more than a park and ride shuttle to Beaverton none of the development which has helped to offset NJT's capital cost. And that 'quarter' is as compared to the full acquisition cost, including the operating contract. TriMet was not so lucky to get someone else to operate their DMU, so they're out 200 million AND they get to pay the outrageous operational cost to keep it running. NJT's light rails on average cost $5.32 per unlinked trip, but the Westside Express is a mind-boggling $25.60 for what is likely to be no more lengthy a trip. |
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Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Nov 21 02:46:10 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Nov 21 00:52:56 2010. Why? We already have cars you can pass through. They're hauled by these things called locomotives and, despite some neglect, are relatively successful. A 2mpg DMU's breakeven point with a .5mpg locomotive will be at just 4 cars, so why should we bother with any capacity to walk through the train when we can just tie two pairs of single ended DMUs together? There's little point to running a longer DMU train (if we demand better performance, then surely we'd electrify), and it creates just one discontinuity in the train's aisle. Of much more importance, it allows the railcar to be engineered in such a way that it actually protects the passengers by absorbing the impact rather than passing the impact from car to car until one buckles or jackknifes.We need to adopt Caltrain's FRA waiver on a nationwide basis. Give agencies the freedom to operate modern DMUs like the GTW 2/6, Desiro, Talent, and such in terminal and branch line settings alongside existing FRA compliant trains so long as some precautions are taken to keep them separated. |
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Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Nov 21 05:39:32 2010, in response to American Railcar gone, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Nov 20 23:09:21 2010. name one American company |
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| (1005499) | |
Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Nov 21 07:24:23 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Nov 21 05:39:32 2010. I didn't say American companies, did I? Name one American company that actually builds trailer cars too, never mind EMUs (those M8s don't have their distinctive look for no reason). |
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Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Nov 21 11:51:28 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by WillD on Sun Nov 21 02:46:10 2010. You are forgetting one major problem with the lack of passthrough. EVERY station has to have platforms as long as the longest train. Instead of having a short SEPTA style platform and letting passengers walk back you have to have one 2 or 3 MU's long. Not only does this raise construction costs and hinder demand based expansion, it completely eliminate the ability for surge capacity for special events. It also reduces regular capacity because a higher % of the coupler to coupler length is overhead space instead of revenue space.Take the Baltimore Light Rail. When there's a sporting event at the stadium complex the MdMTA can run 3 car trains and they can fit in a few extra trainsets, but they simply lack the capacity to run enough trains to meet demand and the result is that the system frequently bogs down with long lines. Now if they use proper railcars they could simply hook up 5 or 6 together and only open the doors for the center three with the same number of operating employees. Or consider Pittsburgh, where only some stations can support a second car, there's a ton of procedures involving getting into the second car of an LRV train because at most stations the doors won't open. I guess one could spend hundreds of millions to add surge capacity that is only used a few times a year, but I prefer buying a vehicle design that is flexible and adaptable. Also re safety I don't want my rail vehicle to crush at all. I want my rail vehicle to crush what it hits. In the unlikely that two crush resistant vehicles hit any resulting injury would be compensated by the reduced cost and increased efficiency of the vehicle. |
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| (1005548) | |
Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Nov 21 12:08:23 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by WillD on Sun Nov 21 02:46:10 2010. It's horribly inefficient to have a giant 3000 HP diesel locomotive used on lines which need no more than 2 car trains. On lines with closely spaced stops (Pascack Valley) it adds travel time to do the slower acceleration rate of a push/pull. |
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| (1005554) | |
Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Nov 21 12:18:47 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Nov 21 12:08:23 2010. its not inefficient, a 3000hp locomotive does not deliver 3000 hp whe n pulling 2 cars.the fuel use of a Genesis or Bl20gh is far lower than two SPV or RDC. those big locomotives on Danbury branch use about 450 gallon per day for 3 car trains. while two SPV's each took 325 gallons per day for same run. and two RDC's each took 290 gallons per day for same run. |
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| (1005570) | |
Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Nov 21 12:46:18 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Nov 21 12:08:23 2010. Well, two-car push-pull diesels accelerate like bats out of hell, but that wouldn't be the point. You're in the gallons-per-mile range instead of miles per gallon, and of course there's gallons per passenger mile . . . DMUs would really put a dent in that overconsumption. |
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| (1005573) | |
Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Nov 21 12:49:25 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Nov 21 12:18:47 2010. a 3000hp locomotive does not deliver 3000 hp whe n pulling 2 carsA 500-horsepower Corvette doesn't deliver 500 horses while driving around the city either, but you're still drinking more fuel than a Toyota Yaris doing the exact same job, for fewer seats than the Yaris. the fuel use of a Genesis or Bl20gh is far lower than two SPV or RDC Apples and oranges. Try parallel tech. |
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| (1005590) | |
Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Nov 21 14:49:30 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Nov 21 12:49:25 2010. Apples and oranges. Try parallel tech.Admittedly, I'm left wondering at moments if European/UIC diesel multiple units can achieve better fuel efficiency. Admittedly, I'm left wondering if FRA regs simply make it difficult to design a diesel multiple unit that can match or beat the fuel efficiency of a locomotive with three cars. FRA regs treating each car as a locomotive probably scare off potential operators, and nobody cares enough about schedule padding, so the slower acceleration of a diesel locomotive hauled set isn't a concern. |
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Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Nov 21 14:54:05 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Nov 21 12:18:47 2010. Well duh, those two examples are 30 and 60 years old respectively. A new build DMU would have much improved fuel economy. I'm not saying loco hauled is better or worse, just that your comparison is faulty. Back in the day RDC's were more efficient than their locomotive counterparts and I would assume that the same might hold today for short 1-3 car trains. There are other factors to consider beyond MPG if one is deciding to equip a line with DMUs vs loco hauled trains. |
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Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Nov 21 14:58:13 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Nov 21 14:49:30 2010. Sure Euro choo choo's get better fuel ecconomy, lower horsepower, no airco, and biggest problem no signal detection.The Europeans had to completely revamp their signal systems from track current detection to axle counters since the light weight trains do not shunt the circuits. Even the Israeli(danish) trains that Amtrak tested would disapear of dispatchers boards when run with 6 cars coupled. as single units the 3 car DMU's were a signal maintainers nightmare. |
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Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Nov 21 14:59:21 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Nov 21 14:54:05 2010. Believe me Fuel economy per hp has not much increased, the polution has decreased however on newer diesels. |
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Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Nov 21 15:13:08 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Nov 21 14:59:21 2010. Internal combustion engines and gas turbines are far more fuel efficient than they were in the 1970's. Today's motor vehicles get better mpg while producing much more hp than they did back in the day. You might be correct for an EMD 645 engine that dates from the 1960's, but newer engines, like those in the BL20, get much better fuel consumption. |
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Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Nov 21 15:23:50 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Nov 21 14:58:13 2010. biggest problem no signal detectionWhich leads one to wonder how light rail systems manage to use track circuits for their signaling systems... The Europeans had to completely revamp their signal systems from track current detection to axle counters since the light weight trains do not shunt the circuits. Isn't this slowly becoming moot with advanced signaling systems like ETCS where balise and radio systems can transmit the same information? Regardless, I'd much rather have lightweight trains that give superior acceleration in order to reducing running time and provide faster services, but obviously, we won't agree on this as we have different perspectives on how a railway system should function. |
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| (1005602) | |
Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Nov 21 15:26:29 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Nov 21 12:49:25 2010. A 500-horsepower Corvette doesn't deliver 500 horses while driving around the city either False, since it most certainly can. If you have 'em, use 'em. Don't let horsepower go to waste. Take Pride,
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Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Nov 21 15:35:55 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Nov 21 15:13:08 2010. yup comparing a different class low/medium speed engines one improves significantly with a different mid/high speed diesel.on RDC/SPV they were already high speed diesels and within same class things did not significantly improve. a lot of EPA stuff actually lowered HP due to EPA requirements. |
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| (1005607) | |
Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Nov 21 15:37:11 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Nov 21 15:23:50 2010. We in USA do not have ERTMS and even with ERTMS they use axle counters at each entry to signal block. |
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| (1005611) | |
Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Nov 21 16:25:18 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Nov 21 11:51:28 2010. EVERY station has to have platforms as long as the longest train.I don't see what makes that any different from any light rail or rapid transit system in the first world. Now if they use proper railcars they could simply hook up 5 or 6 together and only open the doors for the center three with the same number of operating employees. Except you're stuck with long lines for everybody trying to cram their way into the few doors possible, and then awful dwell times when they attempt to leave the train, especially at low platform stations. In the unlikely that two crush resistant vehicles hit any resulting injury would be compensated by the reduced cost and increased efficiency of the vehicle. And what will you do when your transit agency is turned into a victim's trust fund? |
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Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Nov 21 18:17:30 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Nov 21 16:25:18 2010. I don't see what makes that any different from any light rail or rapid transit system in the first world.Will wants to use light rail vehicles for heavy/commuter rail systems. Except you're stuck with long lines for everybody trying to cram their way into the few doors possible, and then awful dwell times when they attempt to leave the train, especially at low platform stations. Stations with low patronage can get away with short platforms. Stations with heavy travel can have full length stations. On SEPTA Market East, Suburban and 30th St all have 10+ car high level platforms, but stations like Highland Ave only serves a single door. Using DMUs w/o passthrough limits train length to the smallest platform size. And what will you do when your transit agency is turned into a victim's trust fund? Insurance covers that sort of crap. You can easily insure away the risk of one or two deaths on average per year. Serious train v Train accidents are exceedingly rare in this country. We have about one nationally per decade. |
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| (1005658) | |
Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Nov 21 19:28:13 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Nov 21 18:17:30 2010. Will wants to use light rail vehicles for heavy/commuter rail systems.It's bit disingenuous to call the vehicles that Will advocates for us to use to be "light rail" in this context given that they're mainline vehicles overseas. You may view them as a "light rail", but they're still considerably different from the Stadtbahnwagen stock or Citadis units roaming around the streets of Western Europe. On SEPTA Market East, Suburban and 30th St all have 10+ car high level platforms, but stations like Highland Ave only serves a single door. From your writings this is obviously where we diverge. While you're focused on the classic American commuter rail setup, I'm far more interested in running what amounts to be a S-Bahn. In other words, a station like Highland would have a full blown platform with level access and 4 tph offpeak. FWIW, for the Europeans, if you're serving stops where you have minimal station infrastructure, you'd probably use the smaller one-car units, not a large multiple unit regardless of power source. In an urban context, one wouldn't have pathetically small station like that... Using DMUs w/o passthrough limits train length to the smallest platform size. OTOH, it requires you to have a conductor on board to sit there and babysit the one door that opens up. I'd like to move away from multiple person train operation. Besides, as a former Hempstead Branch rider, dwell times suck when you're waiting for two or three people to make their way into that forth car that can reach platform, nor is it easy for some people to open up the heavy storm doors used between cars. |
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| (1005695) | |
Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Nov 21 21:55:20 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Nov 21 19:28:13 2010. It's bit disingenuous to call the vehicles that Will advocates for us to use to be "light rail" in this context given that they're mainline vehicles overseas. You may view them as a "light rail", but they're still considerably different from the Stadtbahnwagen stock or Citadis units roaming around the streets of Western Europe.Our trolleys are European light rail, our light rail is European heavy rail and our heavy rail is a European loading gauge problem. While you're focused on the classic American commuter rail setup, I'm far more interested in running what amounts to be a S-Bahn. In other words, a station like Highland would have a full blown platform with level access and 4 tph offpeak. The S-Bahn is basically an American style light rail system such as DART. Those systems have long had a problem with an inefficient use of capitol dollars. They are basically heavy rail metro systems without the grade separation or fare control. It's great that it can save some money over a full blown Subway, but they are far more costly than a commuter rail system. European rail transport has operated over the decades as a giant make work project funded by excessive fuel taxes. Their model is one to avoid, not emulate. If we built lines with stations like one sees on SEPTA or the 47 Library we could restore service on more routes for the same money. OTOH, it requires you to have a conductor on board to sit there and babysit the one door that opens up. I'd like to move away from multiple person train operation. Besides, as a former Hempstead Branch rider, dwell times suck when you're waiting for two or three people to make their way into that forth car that can reach platform, nor is it easy for some people to open up the heavy storm doors used between cars. You can always use POP, that is not the problem. The problem is needing to have a 6-8 car train for the morning rush or sports event and being limited to three MU sets because that is how big your platform is. When the Conductor takes the ticket he can inform the person needing to detrain at a small station where they need to be and make another announcements to that end. System policy can inform passengers that if they are not present in the cars that open they will miss their stop. |
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| (1005698) | |
Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Nov 21 22:46:17 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Nov 21 21:55:20 2010. The S-Bahn is basically an American style light rail system such as DART.Given that FRA regs (and union rules and conservative transit planning) make it nearly impossible to run a fast and frequent railway network on the mainline, we're left with "light rail" systems at 15 minute off-peak headways. To a certain extent, it's also why BART is a half-assed American S-Bahn, and why WMATA reeks of being a Berlin S-Bahn clone. Both systems could have been done with mainline trackage and new tunnels being built for the connective links, but instead we ended up re-inventing the wheel to get OPTO & high acceleration. European rail transport has operated over the decades as a giant make work project funded by excessive fuel taxes. Some have could argue that most American systems aren't that different, except that the workers make far more than their European counterparts... Their model is one to avoid, not emulate. Judging from my experience, I'd rather copy their strategies as they have a functionable and usable network compared to the crap that passes off as "mass transit" in North America. I want a functional secondary network that applies rapid transit techniques to mainline railroading so I don't have stand like an idiot waiting an hour off-peak for the damned M-7 to show up. I want a network where the opportunity costs of traveling to Manhattan are minimized especially in the inner suburbs, and we can refocus economic growth on the core while also increases ridership. In other words, I want a usable network for both peak and off-peak riders. If we built lines with stations like one sees on SEPTA or the 47 Library we could restore service on more routes for the same money. SEPTA's urban operations is basically a streetcar network with a tunnel at the end point. It's suitable for replacing heavily used bus routes, but it's really not ideal for being the back haul for a public transit network unless one upgrades the networks like the Germans did their their Stadtbahn networks. I remember your reference to Pittsburgh's network, and while small stops are appropriate in the context of a streetcar regime on a street, for a real network, I'd prefer stations that don't look like rapist's ideal fantasy and would attract *choice* riders. At minimum, a heated canopy, some CCTV, and a sign telling me when my next train will arrive will suffice. |
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Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Nov 21 22:50:23 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Nov 21 21:55:20 2010. The problem is needing to have a 6-8 car train for the morning rush or sports event and being limited to three MU sets because that is how big your platform is.And again, how is this different from any other *metro* system with peaking from commutes to work and sporting events? When the Conductor takes the ticket You made a mistake. Your conductor should be operating another train, not checking tickets. :-) |
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Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Nov 21 23:45:45 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Nov 21 12:08:23 2010. Yes, and that's exactly the point I was making. The CRC DMUs use two Detroit Diesel DD60 engines producing 600hp apiece and achieving about 4mpg individually (so one DMU consumes 2mpg and produces 1200hp). Conversely an MP40PH will likely do about 2 gallons per mile from it's EMD 16V-710G prime mover producing 4000hp. That means that when the DMU train reaches 4 cars long it will consume the same fuel while producing 800hp more than a diesel locomotive hauled train. Consequently performance may be slightly better with the DMUs, but clearly if you're going down this path in lieu of electrification then performance is secondary to economy.As a result of this, there is little or no point to adopting a DMU design which is optimized for anything more than 4 cars, particularly on systems with established diesel push pull operations. Thus there is nothing lost by having a DMU without a walk-through capability because you'd be unlikely to ever operate DMU trains long enough for that to matter. You could order every DMU as something similar to the CRC DMUs or Siemens' FRA compliant DMU concept with a gangway located at the rear end and only encounter the rarest of operational difficulties. And those operational difficulties would come as a natural expense of making the DMU safer by placing the engineer in the center of the cab and putting crash energy absorbing elements between him and whatever may cross his or her path. |
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Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Nov 21 23:59:18 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Nov 21 22:50:23 2010. Conductors don't operate trains anywhere . . . |
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Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Nov 22 00:00:49 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Nov 21 22:46:17 2010. and union rules and conservative transit planningNo, it was the liberals that came up with the FRA rules, going back to the ICC. |
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Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Mon Nov 22 00:09:55 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Nov 21 23:59:18 2010. Conductors don't operate trains anywhere . . .The hint was that the conductor should be a train operator/engineer providing supplemental service, not somebody collecting tickets. |
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Re: DMU's in future, American Railcar gone. Sumitomo to supply SMART |
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Posted by WillD on Mon Nov 22 00:16:22 2010, in response to No DMU's in future, American Railcar gone., posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Nov 20 19:13:57 2010. It is mildly ironic that you post this just a month after Sonoma's SMART group announced their selection of a Sumitomo/Nippon Sharyo consortium to supply their FRA compliant DMUs for their line, which should open around 2013 or 2014. American Railcar was the lowest scoring bidder and had the second highest purchase price.IMHO Stadler's proposal for what is essentially two GTW 2/6s placed back to back with a gangway between them is particularly interesting. The integration of a small cab and a TW2500-like design would allow the train to be split at that part and operated as two independent cars while also allowing unfettered walk-through capability when operating as one two car train. |
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Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Nov 22 00:44:51 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Nov 22 00:00:49 2010. I believe it was the Progressives with the Railroad Safety Appliance Act of 1903. Damn Teddy Roosevelt...he destroyed the booming prosthetic finger and arm industry. |
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Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Nov 22 00:47:44 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Nov 22 00:44:51 2010. And Olog thanks him for his participation in the writing of the Communist Antipasto ever since. :) |
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Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Nov 22 00:53:06 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Nov 21 22:46:17 2010. Given that FRA regs (and union rules and conservative transit planning) make it nearly impossible to run a fast and frequent railway network on the mainline, we're left with "light rail" systems at 15 minute off-peak headways. To a certain extent, it's also why BART is a half-assed American S-Bahn, and why WMATA reeks of being a Berlin S-Bahn clone. Both systems could have been done with mainline trackage and new tunnels being built for the connective links, but instead we ended up re-inventing the wheel to get OPTO & high acceleration.Because railroads are able to operate with relaxed technological safety standards there has to be increased regulatory oversight. It is far less expensive to operate commuter rail than it is a Metro or S-Bahn. All those escalators, faregates and ATO systems don't maintain themselves. Some have could argue that most American systems aren't that different, except that the workers make far more than their European counterparts... European train DRIVERS operate on the same skill level as domestic transit operators. Railroad jobs are high skill activities because the system hasn't been nerfed. In other words, I want a usable network for both peak and off-peak riders. With a little proper planning even an hour headway is perfectly workable. Oh boo hoo, the government doesn't subsidize your ability to roll out of bed and randomly decide to catch a train downtown. Learn how to read a schedule and plan your day accordingly. Be on top or be left behind. At minimum, a heated canopy, some CCTV, and a sign telling me when my next train will arrive will suffice. Who's going to pay for it? You know in China they don't need those creature comforts and that is why they are kicking our asses. Austerity means you have to give up the less important "nice to haves". Why should SEPTA provide canopies and heaters? Wear a fucking coat. |
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Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Nov 22 00:55:34 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Nov 21 22:50:23 2010. And again, how is this different from any other *metro* system with peaking from commutes to work and sporting events?Metro stations cost 200 million a pop. Commuter rail stations don't. You made a mistake. Your conductor should be operating another train, not checking tickets. :-) I'd rather get on the first train than wait three headways for room. |
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Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Nov 22 00:59:40 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Mon Nov 22 00:09:55 2010. Then move to POP like Caltrain uses.It's always good to have a second crewman because they can help overcome operational problems. In Europe when there's some sort of equipment failure they just discharge and |
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Re: American Railcar gone |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Mon Nov 22 01:33:23 2010, in response to Re: American Railcar gone, posted by WillD on Sun Nov 21 23:45:45 2010. It is far less expensive to operate commuter rail than it is a Metro or S-Bahn.And you move far less people. Cost efficiency should ultimately take a second seat to the maximization of passengers being moved, as I have no qualms about high operating costs if we're moving sizable numbers of people and providing a real alternative to cars. European train DRIVERS operate on the same skill level as domestic transit operators. Railroad jobs are high skill activities because the system hasn't been nerfed. So what's wrong with reducing the skill needed? Oh boo hoo, the government doesn't subsidize your ability to roll out of bed and randomly decide to catch a train downtown. Learn how to read a schedule and plan your day accordingly. Be on top or be left behind. The problem is that it increases the opportunity costs of traveling to the core of the city and only reinforces heavy levels of suburbanization. As a matter of personal policy perspective, I want strong urban cores, and the only way we can achieve this is to promote quick links to from our periphery into the core. I'm sorry if it eats away at your fantasy, but we need to make transit as convenient and easy to use as possible, and if this means paying the workers less in order to have more trains per hour and lower fares, then so be it. Austerity means you have to give up the less important "nice to haves". Except public transport is not a nice to have. You're just making excusing to justify your ideal railroad which isn't particularly passenger friendly. Why should SEPTA provide canopies and heaters? Wear a fucking coat. Because I live in a fucking first world country, not Brazil du Nord. Given that the competition is a warm car, I think it's perfectly suitable to have some attempt at climate control. Hell, in frigging cheap ass Canada, my cousin's bus stop has a frigging heater. A frigging canopy really isn't much to ask for even if I have a coat and umbrella. |
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