Re: Egypt Revolts, brags about keeping Israel out of Gaza

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Re: Egypt Revolts, brags about keeping Israel out of Gaza
Posted by Olog-hai* on Tue Nov 1 06:07:44 2011, in response to Egypt Revolts!, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 28 16:01:55 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Of course, that means they have the distinction of helping keep Hamas in and propped up. INN Egypt: 'We Kept Israel Out of Gaza' Egypt's ambassador to the Palestinian Authority says Cairo stopped Israel from launching a major military incursion into Gaza amid attacks. By Gavriel Queenann First Publish: 10/31/2011, 7:14 PM Egyptian officials claim they have prevented Israel from launching a major military incursion into Gaza as rocket and mortar fire from the Hamas-run enclave sharply rose over the weekend. "Egypt succeeded in halting the ongoing tit-for-tat attacks across the border," Yasser Othman, Cairo's ambassador to the Palestinian Authority, told the PA's semi-official Maan News on Monday. Othman said Egyptian efforts would continue until a complete truce is reached in Gaza and Israeli violations stop, adding that Egypt’s ambassador to Israel has been contacted by Israeli officials on a daily basis in order to reach a complete ceasefire. Othman applauded the 'Palestinian' terror factions for "not being swayed by Israel's provocative acts." Twice on Sunday, Egyptian-brokered truces were announced by officials in Cairo and Gaza's terror factions. Both were rejected by Israel. “There is no ceasefire, there are no negotiations and the IDF continues its operations," Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu said Monday. In recent years it has become standard operating procedure for terror factions in Gaza to fire rockets and mortars into Israel and then unilaterally declare a ceasefire in the hopes of avoiding retaliation. Egypt's calling Israel's defensive or retaliatory actions "provocative acts" is also standard operating procedure. Over the weekend some 39 rockets and mortars exploded in various locations throughout southern Israel, killing a 56-year-old man and wounding 16 other civilians, including a young girl and a baby. Another 14 people were hospitalized for trauma reactions and severe anxiety attacks, as well. In response, the IDF has launched a series of air strikes that have killed some 12 terrorists in three days. Amid the increased rocket-fire there has been an outcry from Israeli lawmakers, senior officials, and security experts to enter Gaza and dismantle the terror infrastructure there. Among those calling for a major military incursion into Gaza are three former IDF chiefs of staff: Strategic Affairs Minister Moshe Yaalon, Kadima MK Shaul Mofaz, and Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz (ret). On Monday, at the opening of the Knesset season, Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu said Israel's strategic posture had to incorporate an offensive element, using the biblical expression, "he who harms us, his blood is on his own head."
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Re: Egypt Revolts—hundreds of thousands of Copts flee
Posted by Olog-hai* on Tue Nov 22 00:36:26 2011, in response to Egypt Revolts!, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 28 16:01:55 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Libs won't admit this kind of stuff. The New York Times will, at least; they can still occasionally draw a line between reporting and ideology. After Egypt’s Revolution, Christians Are Living in Fear… By ANDRÉ ACIMAN Published: November 19, 2011 THE images streaming from Cairo’s streets last month were not as horrifying as those of the capture and brutal death of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, but they were savage all the same. They were a sobering reminder that popular movements in some parts of the world, however euphorically they begin, can take disquieting and ugly turns. When liberal Muslims joined Coptic Christians as they marched through Cairo’s Maspero area on Oct. 9 to protest the burning of a Coptic church, bands of conservative Muslim hooligans wielding sticks and swords began attacking the protesters. Egyptian security forces who had apparently intervened to break up the violence deliberately rammed their armed vehicles into the Coptic crowd and fired live ammunition indiscriminately. Egyptian military authorities soon shut down live news coverage of the event, and evidence of chaos was quickly cleared from the scene. But the massacre, in which at least 24 people were killed and more than 300 were wounded, was the worst instance of sectarian violence in Egypt in 60 years. Confusion and conflicting narratives abound. Some claim to have overheard an announcer on television encourage “honorable Egyptians” to come to the rescue of soldiers under attack by a mob of Copts. Others heard a Muslim shouting that he had killed a Christian. Unable to explain exactly why events turned violent, Egypt’s interim prime minister, Essam Sharaf, claimed that the wholesale slaughter of civilians was not the product of sectarian violence but proof that there were “hidden hands” involved. I grew up in an Egypt that was inventing hidden hands wherever you looked. Because of my family’s increasingly precarious status as Jews living in Nasser’s Egypt, my parents forbade me to flash my flashlight several times at night or to write invisible messages with lemon ink in middle school. These were a spymaster’s tricks, and Jews were forever regarded as spies after the 1954 “Lavon Affair,” in which Israeli intelligence recruited Egyptian Jews to bomb targets in Egypt. Sadly, the phrase “hidden hands” remains a part of Egypt’s political rhetoric more than 50 years later — an invitation for every Egyptian to write in the name of his or her favorite bugaboo. Rather than see things for what they are, Egyptians, from their leaders on down, have always preferred the blame game — and with good reason. Blaming some insidious clandestine villain for anything invariably works in a country where hearsay passes for truth and paranoia for knowledge. Sometimes those hidden hands are called Langley, or the West, or, all else failing, of course, the Mossad. Sometimes “hidden hands” stands for any number of foreign or local conspiracies carried out by corrupt or disgruntled apparatchiks of one stripe or another who are forever eager to tarnish and discredit the public trust. The problem with Egypt is that there is no public trust. There is no trust, period. False rumor, which is the opiate of the Egyptian masses and the bread and butter of political discourse in the Arab world, trumps clarity, reason and the will to tolerate a different opinion, let alone a different religion or the spirit of open discourse. “Hidden hands” stands for Satan. And with Satan you don’t use judgment; you use cunning and paranoia. Cunning, after all, is poor man’s fare, a way of cobbling together a credible enough narrative that is at once easy to digest, to swear by, and pass around. Bugaboos keep you focused. And nothing in the Middle East can keep you as focused (or as unfocused) as the archvillain of them all: Israel. Say “Israel” and you’ve galvanized everyone. Say Israel and you have a movement, a cause, a purpose. Say “Israel” and all of Islam huddles. Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah and now Turkey. What is good about the episode in Maspero is that, in the exhilarating and unusual spirit of the events of last spring in Tahrir Square, Muslims joined the Coptic demonstrators who were eager to exercise the right to build churches — a right that has always been grudgingly granted to Egypt’s Copts. What is terrible about the episode, however, is the inability of the government to take the blame for the slaughter of the Copts. Similarly, in September, it failed to intervene in good time when a large mob attacked the Israeli embassy in Cairo, broke down its walls and nearly slaughtered those inside. The friendly army that Copts embraced during the Arab spring has turned its guns on those who embraced it. Your pal today, your killer tomorrow. There are no rules and there is no trust. The poor man on the street, if he is to think for himself — which is a tall order in a country that has no history of free speech — must either wear warped lenses to see through wholesale agitprop or surrender to blind fanaticism. COPTS represent approximately 10 percent of Egypt’s population and are the direct descendants of the ancient Egyptians. Yet, sensing danger while everyone else in Egypt and in the West was busy celebrating the fall of Mr. Mubarak during the much-heralded Arab Spring, 93,000 Copts have already fled Egypt since March. In light of the events in Maspero, it is thought that another 150,000 Copts may leave their ancestral homeland by the end of 2011. When Mr. Mubarak was in power, the Copts were frequently the victims of violent attacks and official discrimination — the New Year’s bombing of a Coptic Church in Alexandria that left 21 dead is the most recent instance. Now, with Mr. Mubarak gone, Copts fear that an elected Muslim majority is likely to prove far less tolerant than a military dictatorship. Conditions were by no means good for the Copts when Mr. Mubarak was at the helm. The most risible instance occurred in 2009 when, in an absurd effort to prevent the spread of swine flu, the government decided to slaughter all pigs in Egypt. But since neither contact with pigs nor eating pork spreads swine flu, why kill the poor pigs? The answer is very simple. Slaughtering the pigs, as it turns out, was probably meant to inconvenience the Copts who farmed them and ate them. This constituted another of those petty measures intended to harm the Copts financially. Today, Egypt is doing the same with Israel. Under the pretext of preserving its national agricultural patrimony, it has forbidden the sale of palm fronds to Israel. Palm fronds are used ceremonially by Jews during the holiday of Sukkot, and since Israel doesn’t grow enough palm trees, it imports the fronds from Egypt. Whom did the ban hurt? The Egyptians who grow palm trees. Whom did the slaughter of pigs hurt? None other than the Cairenes themselves, because pigs, which eat tons of organic waste, used to play an important role in clearing trash from the streets of Cairo. What doesn’t occur to most Egyptians is that the Copts represent a significant business community in Egypt and that their flight may further damage an economy saddled with a ballooning deficit. But this is nothing new for Egypt. The Egyptians have yet to learn the very hard lesson of the post-1956 departure of its nearly 100,000 Jews, who, at the time, constituted one of the wealthiest Jewish communities in the Mediterranean region. The Egyptian economy never recovered from this loss. While blaming Zionism and the creation of Israel or turning to Islamic leadership may take many people’s minds off the very real financial debacle confronting Egypt and help assuage feelings of powerlessness, the hard lesson has not been learned yet. The Arab Spring was a luminous instance of democratic euphoria in a country that had no history of democracy or euphoria. What happened to the Copts this fall cast a dark cloud, which the interim government, whatever its true convictions, would do well to dispel. Egypt should not lose its Copts. For if that is what autumn brings, then, to paraphrase Shelley, winter may not be far behind.
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by Olog-hai* on Thu Dec 1 12:24:39 2011, in response to Egypt Revolts!, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 28 16:01:55 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Endgame as predicted by those "right-wingers". February seems so far away now, yes? New York Times Islamists Claim Egypt’s Mandate in Early Voting By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK Published: November 30, 2011 CAIRO — Islamists claimed a decisive victory on Wednesday as early election results put them on track to win a dominant majority in Egypt’s first Parliament since the ouster of Hosni Mubarak, the most significant step yet in the religious movement’s rise since the start of the Arab Spring. The party formed by the Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt’s mainstream Islamist group, appeared to have taken about 40 percent of the vote, as expected. But a big surprise was the strong showing of ultraconservative Islamists, called Salafis, many of whom see most popular entertainment as sinful and reject women’s participation in voting or public life. Analysts in the state-run news media said early returns indicated that Salafi groups could take as much as a quarter of the vote, giving the two groups of Islamists combined control of nearly 65 percent of the parliamentary seats. That victory came at the expense of the liberal parties and youth activists who set off the revolution, affirming their fears that they would be unable to compete with Islamists who emerged from the Mubarak years organized and with an established following. Poorly organized and internally divided, the liberal parties could not compete with Islamists disciplined by decades as the sole opposition to Mr. Mubarak. “We were washed out,” said Shady el-Ghazaly Harb, one of the most politically active of the group. Although this week’s voting took place in only a third of Egypt’s provinces, they included some of the nation’s most liberal precincts — like Cairo, Port Said and the Red Sea coast — suggesting that the Islamist wave is likely to grow stronger as the voting moves into more conservative rural areas in the coming months. (Alexandria, a conservative stronghold, also has voted.) The preliminary results extend the rising influence of Islamists across a region where they were once outlawed and oppressed by autocrats aligned with the West. Islamists have formed governments in Tunisia and Morocco. They are positioned for a major role in post-Qaddafi Libya as well. But it is the victory in Egypt — the largest and once the most influential Arab state, an American ally considered a linchpin of regional stability — that has the potential to upend the established order across the Middle East. Islamist leaders, many jailed for years under Mr. Mubarak, were exultant. “We abide by the rules of democracy, and accept the will of the people,” Essam el-Erian, a leader of the Brotherhood’s new party, wrote in the British newspaper The Guardian. “There will be winners and losers. But the real — and only — victor is Egypt.” Results will not be final until January, after two more rounds of voting. And the ultimate scope of the new Parliament’s power remains unclear because Egypt has remained under military rule since Mr. Mubarak resigned as president in February. But Parliament is expected to play a role in drafting a new Constitution with the ruling military council, although the council has given contradictory indications about how much parliamentary input it will allow. The emergence of a strong Islamist bloc in Parliament is already quickening a showdown with the military. Brotherhood leaders announced Wednesday that they expected the Islamist parliamentary majority to name a prime minister to replace the civilian government now serving the military. In response, a senior official of the military-led government insisted that the ruling generals would retain that prerogative. The unexpected rise of a strong ultraconservative Islamist faction to the right of the Brotherhood is likely to shift Egypt’s cultural and political center of gravity to the right as well. Leaders of the Brotherhood’s Freedom and Justice Party will likely feel obliged to compete with the ultraconservatives for Islamist voters, and at the same time will not feel the same need to compromise with liberals to form a government. “It means that, if the Brotherhood chooses, Parliament can be an Islamists affair — a debate between liberal Islamists, moderate Islamists and conservatives Islamists, and that is it,” Michael Wahid Hanna, an Egyptian-born researcher at the Century Foundation in Cairo, said this week. The ultraconservative Salafi parties, meanwhile, will be able to use their electoral clout to make their own demands for influence on appointments in the new government. Mr. Hanna added: “I don’t mind saying this is not a great thing. It is not a joyous day on my end.” If the majority proves durable, the longer-term implications are hard to predict. The Brotherhood has pledged to respect basic individual freedoms while using the influence of the state to nudge the culture in a more traditional direction. But the Salafis often talk openly of laws mandating a shift to Islamic banking, restricting the sale of alcohol, providing special curriculums for boys and girls in public schools, and censoring the content of the arts and entertainment. Their leaders have sometimes proposed that a special council of religious scholars advise Parliament or the top courts on legislation’s compliance with Islamic law. Egyptian election laws required the Salafi parties to put at least one woman on their electoral roster for each district, but they put the women last on their lists to ensure they would not be elected, and some appear with pictures of flowers in place of their faces on campaign posters. Sheik Hazem Shouman, an important Salafi leader, recently rushed into a public concert on the campus of Mansoura University to try to persuade the crowd to turn away from the “sinful” performance and go home. He defended his actions on a television talk show, saying he had felt like a doctor making an emergency intervention to save a patient dying of cancer. The new majority is likely to increase the difficulty of sustaining the United States’ close military and political partnership with post-Mubarak Egypt, though the military has said it plans to maintain a monopoly over many aspects of foreign affairs. Islamist political leaders miss no opportunity to criticize Washington’s policies toward Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel and the Palestinians. And while Brotherhood leaders have said they intend to preserve but perhaps renegotiate the 1979 Camp David peace treaty with Israel, the Salafi parties have been much less reassuring. Some have suggested putting the treaty to a referendum. Speaking on the condition of anonymity, an Israeli official acknowledged concerns: “Obviously, it is hard to see in this result good news for Israel.” Some members of Egypt’s Coptic Christian minority — about 10 percent of the population — joked Wednesday that they would prepare to leave the country. Previously protected by Mr. Mubarak’s patronage, many have dreaded the Islamists’ talk of protecting the Islamic character of Egypt. Some Brotherhood leaders often repeat that they believe citizenship is an equal right of all regardless of sect, even chanting at some campaign rallies that Copts are also “sons of Egypt.” But Salafis more often declare that Christians should not fear Islamic law because it requires the protection of religious minorities, an explanation that many Christians feel assigns them second-class status. Most Copts voted for the liberal Egyptian bloc, which was vying for second place with the Salafis in some reports. It was an eclectic alliance against the Islamists, dominated by the Social Democrats, a left-leaning party with ties to the revolution’s leaders, and by the Free Egyptians, the business-friendly party founded and promoted by Naguib Sawiris, the Coptic Christian media-and-telecommunications tycoon. The results indicated that some of the candidates and slates put forward by the former ruling party appeared to have won back their seats. It was unclear how large a bloc they might form, but they could prove sympathetic to the familiar mantra of stability-above-all that the ruling military is putting forward. Mayy el Sheikh contributed reporting from Cairo, and Ethan Bronner from Jerusalem.
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Revolting: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by Train Dude* on Thu Dec 1 12:26:20 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Dec 1 12:24:39 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d More obie foreign policy gone awry ..... or has it?
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Re: Revolting: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by Olog-hai* on Thu Dec 1 12:27:27 2011, in response to Revolting: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by Train Dude on Thu Dec 1 12:26:20 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Words and deeds are still very far apart as far as Israel's security goes.
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by Fred G* on Thu Dec 1 12:33:24 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Dec 1 12:24:39 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d One person, one vote, and so it goes. Democracy in action, sometimes not the way you like it to turn out. your pal, Fred
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by Train Dude* on Thu Dec 1 12:34:43 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by Fred G on Thu Dec 1 12:33:24 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Absolutely!
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by Olog-hai* on Thu Dec 1 12:36:47 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by Fred G on Thu Dec 1 12:33:24 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d That's not democracy. Democracy is where you vote for people and parties that uphold democracy, and are not bullied into voting for anti-democratic thugs such as these.
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by AlM* on Thu Dec 1 13:04:08 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Dec 1 12:36:47 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d So do you think that parties that don't support the democratic process should be excluded from participating in it?
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by Olog-hai* on Thu Dec 1 13:05:25 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by AlM on Thu Dec 1 13:04:08 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Of course. True democracy is not a free-for-all where its enemies can participate, otherwise it'd be destroyed in the first election held as such. (Like we continue to see over and over.)
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by AlM* on Thu Dec 1 13:18:17 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Dec 1 13:05:25 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d OK. Who determines which parties are anti-democratic and should be excluded from the process?
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by Olog-hai* on Thu Dec 1 13:29:34 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by AlM on Thu Dec 1 13:18:17 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Who determines which parties are anti-democratic and should be excluded from the process? You don't think it'd be obvious? Parties whose platforms are openly against democracy are among the first to be excluded. Next on the list are those whose actions are at variance with policies. You have to have the rule of law, not the rule of man.
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by LuchAAA* on Thu Dec 1 13:45:31 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Dec 1 12:24:39 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d clearaspect is not saying much about this anymore. at first he was all over the issue. since things have worsened, he has become increasingly quiet. That's how it works.
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by Train Dude* on Thu Dec 1 13:47:46 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Dec 1 13:45:31 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d perhaps this was mr. oboma's end game after all.
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by AlM* on Thu Dec 1 14:02:50 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Dec 1 13:29:34 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I said who, not how.
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by SLRT* on Thu Dec 1 14:13:43 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by Train Dude on Thu Dec 1 13:47:46 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d A lot more people said he would be a "transformative president" than asked what exactly he was going to transform, and how.
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by Train Dude* on Thu Dec 1 14:15:10 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by SLRT on Thu Dec 1 14:13:43 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d That's very apparent now.
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by Olog-hai* on Thu Dec 1 14:51:14 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by AlM on Thu Dec 1 14:02:50 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The who needs the how. As for "who", that'd be the judicial branch, but according to a strict constitutional standard.
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by Olog-hai* on Thu Dec 1 14:51:47 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Dec 1 13:45:31 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Nor is the OP of this thread saying aught.
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by SLRT* on Thu Dec 1 15:05:08 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by AlM on Thu Dec 1 14:02:50 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d If you define "democratic" as simply meaning a majority in an open election, then you take what you get. In order to have a truly democratic government you need a country with democratic traditions and democratic institutions. The U.S. didn't have direct election of any federal offices except the House of Representatives. To this day, the President is not directly elected. People are unhappy with the Electoral College, except when they think their side has an advantage. Whether there is any hope for democracy in Egypt will play out when we see what happens to the Copts.
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by Olog-hai* on Thu Dec 1 15:06:51 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by SLRT on Thu Dec 1 15:05:08 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d We only have to see what's been happening to the Copts (documented in this very thread in fact). And the women in general over there.
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by LuchAAA* on Thu Dec 1 15:09:03 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Dec 1 14:51:47 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I hope JayZEEBMT and Clearaspect participate tonight. I won't participate but will enjoy reading their content.
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Re: Egypt Revolts!
Posted by Mitch45* on Thu Dec 1 16:06:55 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 28 16:11:36 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Great. So lets replace one oppressive government with another. Its not like people living in Iran are kicking their heels up with joy. I'm sure Israel will get blamed for all of this somehow.
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Thu Dec 1 16:26:40 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Dec 1 12:36:47 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d So ... "democracy" is when people vote the way YOU want them to ... thanks for settling that.
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Re: Egypt Revolts, et cetera.
Posted by Olog-hai* on Thu Dec 1 18:31:49 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by Mitch45 on Thu Dec 1 16:06:55 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d When was Mubarak's government oppressive? Been listening to the libs too much?
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by Olog-hai* on Thu Dec 1 20:52:04 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Dec 1 15:09:03 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Nah . . . we got crickets instead.
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by LuchAAA* on Thu Dec 1 20:58:38 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Dec 1 20:52:04 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Where are clearaspect and jayzeebmt
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by Olog-hai* on Fri Dec 2 01:26:25 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Dec 1 20:58:38 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Still not around. Guess they started something they couldn't finish.
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by LuchAAA* on Fri Dec 2 01:28:07 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Dec 2 01:26:25 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d They are waiting, hoping things go their way. Just like SMAZ is waiting for Tebow to lose so he can come back to that thread he started. THIW.
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by Olog-hai* on Fri Dec 2 01:37:05 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Dec 2 01:28:07 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d They are waiting, hoping things go their way They'll be waiting for an eternity.
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Re: Egypt Revolts, et cetera.
Posted by WMATAGMOAGH* on Fri Dec 2 04:44:34 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts, et cetera., posted by Olog-hai on Thu Dec 1 18:31:49 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Seriously?
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by SLRT* on Fri Dec 2 12:23:13 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Dec 1 16:26:40 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d So you think democracy is simply majority rule?
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Fri Dec 2 17:02:37 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by SLRT on Fri Dec 2 12:23:13 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Democracy generally is ... that's why WE are a republic ...
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by Olog-hai* on Fri Dec 2 17:06:33 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Dec 2 01:37:05 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Like I was saying.
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Re: Egypt Revolts, et cetera.
Posted by Olog-hai* on Fri Dec 2 17:08:24 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts, et cetera., posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Dec 2 04:44:34 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d We know you always listen to the liberals. But seriously, who did you see getting "oppressed" when you visited there? Pandering to the enemy ain't gonna work. Mubarak was doing exactly what the Shah was doing in Iran—keeping the "death-cult" Islamists down.
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by SLRT* on Fri Dec 2 17:25:05 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Dec 2 17:02:37 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Are you doing the democracy <> republic argument? It's usually conservatives who do that.
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Re: Egypt Revolts!
Posted by LuchAAA* on Fri Dec 2 17:26:00 2011, in response to Egypt Revolts!, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 28 16:01:55 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d bump
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Fri Dec 2 17:30:40 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by SLRT on Fri Dec 2 17:25:05 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Whoops ... I'm supposed to be a "librul" ... ummmm ... I withdraw my statement then as "unauthorized." :)
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Re: Egypt Revolts, et cetera.
Posted by WMATAGMOAGH* on Sat Dec 3 11:04:55 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts, et cetera., posted by Olog-hai on Fri Dec 2 17:08:24 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I'm not going to try and sugarcoat what is going on in Egypt right now as something that is in the best interests of the US, because I think it is very unclear if that is the case (and most likely it isn't, but I'll wait to see what happens as opposed to deciding before the fact). But if you think that the majority of Egyptians wanted Mubarak to be their president, you are delusional.
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Re: Egypt Revolts, et cetera.
Posted by Olog-hai* on Sat Dec 3 11:08:07 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts, et cetera., posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sat Dec 3 11:04:55 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d But if you think that the majority of Egyptians wanted Mubarak to be their president, you are delusional That's not what I'm saying at all. And that really speaks as to the enmity that "the majority of Egyptians" hold for Israel (and the USA, framkly). The last thing we need is to accede to the wishes of the majority of Egyptians, which is to live under radical Islam and participate in Jihad (and of course to "free al-Quds" from the "Yahud").
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Re: Egypt Revolts, et cetera.
Posted by WMATAGMOAGH* on Sat Dec 3 12:33:25 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts, et cetera., posted by Olog-hai on Sat Dec 3 11:08:07 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d So you don't believe in the self-determination of other people? I'm well aware of the enmity that the majority of Egyptians hold for Israel and the US, but I've never said that the developments in Egypt are in American or Israeli interests.
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Re: Egypt Revolts, et cetera.
Posted by Olog-hai* on Sat Dec 3 15:32:37 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts, et cetera., posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sat Dec 3 12:33:25 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d So you don't believe in the self-determination of other people? That's Nazi talk. The Nazis were big on that so-called "self-determination" thing, especially old Adolf himself. Criminals and murderers do not deserve what is called "self-determination", especially when it comes to what they're determined to do. I'm well aware of the enmity that the majority of Egyptians hold for Israel and the US, but I've never said that the developments in Egypt are in American or Israeli interests So you want Egypt to incite a war with Israel?
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Re: Egypt Revolts, et cetera.
Posted by WMATAGMOAGH* on Sat Dec 3 15:50:56 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts, et cetera., posted by Olog-hai on Sat Dec 3 15:32:37 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d So you want Egypt to incite a war with Israel? Have I said that? Obviously I don't, but I don't see the world in the black and white terms that you do. I'm not even going to bother responding to the first part of your post...
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Re: Egypt Revolts, et cetera.
Posted by Olog-hai* on Sat Dec 3 15:56:10 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts, et cetera., posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sat Dec 3 15:50:56 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I'm not even going to bother responding to the first part of your post . . . because you got busted with rhetoric that the Nazis were fond of using so freely? Oh, come on. You can't hide from history. The whole "self-determination" thing was used to annex the Sudetenland, Austria, any other country that the Drittes Reich wanted. Have I said that? Obviously I don't, but I don't see the world in the black and white terms that you do What "black and white terms"? Save the liberal crap for a liberal message board; this one has free character. It ain't "black and white" to report what the majority of Egyptians have said they actually want. There are no "shades" to the naked truth.
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Re: Egypt Revolts, et cetera.
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Sat Dec 3 16:22:41 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts, et cetera., posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sat Dec 3 11:04:55 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I don't see what's wrong with people having a say in their OWN country. Egypt, like a good part of the middle east, is populated by a majority of younger people who aren't necessarily interested in the "old ways" including the wishes of the opposition. Folks like Olog need to just get out of the way and encourage the Egyptian people to make more sense than their parents did. End result could well be that they won't hate outsiders as much in the future.
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Re: Egypt Revolts, et cetera.
Posted by WMATAGMOAGH* on Sat Dec 3 16:37:03 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts, et cetera., posted by Olog-hai on Sat Dec 3 15:56:10 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I didn't get busted, you are being ridiculous (even more so than usual). I'm not feigning ignorance of what was being chanted last week in Cairo. I think I've been very clear in my stance that Mubarak was an oppressive autocrat but the fall of his government may not be in the best interests of the US and Israel. Ultimately though, Egypt is not a US or Israeli state. Despite your desires, the world isn't run solely to your liking.
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Re: Egypt Revolts, et cetera.
Posted by Olog-hai* on Sat Dec 3 16:43:55 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts, et cetera., posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sat Dec 3 16:37:03 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d you are being ridiculous Now you're pulling the liberal dismissal card as well as ad-hominem. You can't divorce the phrase "self-determination" from that kind of extremism, so when you challenge me on whether the Egyptians have a right to same, you make it seem as though you're supporting it. I think I've been very clear in my stance that Mubarak was an oppressive autocrat but the fall of his government may not be in the best interests of the US and Israel. Ultimately though, Egypt is not a US or Israeli state. Despite your desires, the world isn't run solely to your liking You have no sense of foreign policy. None whatsoever. If your foreign policy does not include putting down those that are hostile to your nation and instead letting them wax stronger and stronger, then your foreign policy is a failure and your home land is in danger, not just that your enemies do not have your "best interests" at heart. But by all means, keep pretending that what was chanted in Tahrir Square was not in earnest.
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by Olog-hai* on Sun Dec 4 13:13:45 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Dec 1 12:24:39 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Islamists still the clear winner. Associated Press Dec 4, 11:34 AM EST New Egypt election results show Islamists dominant By SARAH EL DEEB Associated Press CAIRO (AP) — Islamist parties captured an overwhelming majority of votes in the first round of Egypt's parliamentary elections, setting up a power struggle with the much weaker liberals behind the uprising that ousted Hosni Mubarak 10 months ago. A hard-line religious group that wants to impose strict Islamic law made a strong showing with nearly a quarter of the ballots, according to results released Sunday. The tallies offer only a partial indication of how the new parliament will look. There are still two more rounds of voting in 18 of the country's 27 provinces over the coming month and runoff elections on Monday and Tuesday to determine almost all of the seats allocated for individuals in the first round. But the grip of the Islamists over the next parliament appears set, particularly considering their popularity in provinces voting in the next rounds. The High Election Commission said the Islamic fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood's Freedom and Justice Party garnered 36.6 percent of the 9.7 million valid ballots cast for party lists. The Nour Party, a more hard-line Islamist group, captured 24.4 percent. The strong Islamist showing worries liberal parties, and even some religious parties, who fear the two groups will work to push a religious agenda. It has also left many of the youthful activists behind the uprising that ousted Mubarak in February feeling that their revolution has been hijacked. Since Mubarak's fall, the groups that led the uprising and Islamists have been locked in a fight over the country's new constitution. The new parliament will be tasked, in theory, with selecting a 100-member panel to draft the new constitution. But adding to tensions, the ruling military council that took over from Mubarak has suggested it will choose 80 of those members, and said parliament will have no say in naming a new government. "The conflict will be over the soul of Egypt," said Nabil Abdel-Fattah, a senior researcher at the state-sponsored Al-Ahram Center for Political and Strategic Studies, calling the new parliament "transitional" with a "very conservative Islamic" outlook. The Brotherhood has emerged as the most organized and cohesive political force in these elections. But with no track record of governing, it is not yet clear how they will behave in power. The party has positioned itself as a moderate Islamist party that wants to implement Islamic law without sacrificing personal freedoms, and has said it will not seek an alliance with the more radical Nour party. The ultraconservative Salafis who dominate the Nour Party are newcomers to the political scene. They had previously frowned upon involvement in politics and shunned elections. They espouse a strict interpretation of Islam similar to that of Saudi Arabia, where the sexes are segregated and women must be veiled and are barred from driving. Its members say laws contradicting religion can't be passed. A Nour Party spokesman, Yousseri Hamad, suggested over the weekend, for example, that alcohol should be banned and that a state agency could penalize Muslims for eating during the day during the holy month of Ramadan, when the devout fast from dawn to dusk. Many in Egypt's Coptic Christian population, which makes up 10 percent of the country, fear the Salafis will push for laws that will make them second-class citizens. Egypt already uses Islamic law, or Shariah, as the basis for legislation. However, laws remain largely secular as Shariah does not cover all aspects of modern life. If the Muslim Brotherhood chooses not to form an alliance with the Salafis, the liberal Egyptian Bloc — which came in third with 13.4 percent of the votes — could counterbalance hard-line elements. It is also unclear how much influence the new parliament will have over Egypt's democratic transition and how long it will even serve. The Muslim Brotherhood has said it will challenge moves by the military to retain overall control of key aspects of governing and the transition. A strong showing by Islamists in the elections could boost its popular mandate to do so. The power struggle within parliament could shape up as a fight among the different Islamist trends or between the Islamists and the liberal and secular forces. The elections, which began Nov. 28, are the first since Mubarak's ouster and the freest and fairest in Egypt's modern history. Turnout of around 60 percent was the highest in living memory as few participated in the heavily rigged votes under Mubarak. The ballots are a confusing mix of individual races and party lists, and the Sunday results only reflect the party list performance for less than a third of the 498-seat parliament. Another liberal list, the Wafd Party, received 7.1 percent, while the moderate Islamist Wasat or Centrist Party took 4.3 percent. The final shape of the lower house of parliament will not be announced before January. Elections for the less powerful upper house will finish in March. The next step in the complex process, a round of runoffs between more than 100 individual candidates competing in the first round for around 50 seats, is set for Monday and Tuesday.
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Sun Dec 4 16:18:51 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts—Islamists take about 65 percent of vote, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Dec 4 13:13:45 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Pssst! The majority of people over there are Muslim. Let us know when "Islamists" get elected here, Canada or in Ireland. Then you'll have a story.
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Re: Egypt Revolts—Women Get Beaten Up With Metal Poles By Soldiers (and worse)
Posted by Olog-hai* on Sun Dec 18 12:30:59 2011, in response to Egypt Revolts!, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 28 16:01:55 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Thanks for showcasing this, libs. Oh wait; they didn't. Not hotlinking the pix and video; they're at the link. Daily Mail The brave women of the Middle East: Female protesters brutally beaten with metal poles as vicious soldiers drag girls through streets by their hair in day of shame By Inderdeep Bains Last updated at 5:25 AM on 18^th December 2011 After being viciously beaten by a 10-strong mob of Egyptian male soldiers, this woman lies helplessly on the ground as her shirt is ripped from her body and a man kicks her with full force in her exposed chest. Moments earlier she had been struck countless times in the head and body with metal batons, not content with the brutal beating delivered by his fellow soldier, one man stamped on her head repeatedly. She feebly tried to shield her head from the relentless blows with her hands. But she was knocked unconscious in the shameful attack and left lying motionless as the military men mindlessly continued to beat her limp and half-naked body. Before she was set upon by the guards, three men appeared to carry her as they tried to flee the approaching military. But they were too slow and the soldiers caught up with them, capturing the women and knocking one of the men to the ground. The two other men were forced to abandoned their fellow protesters and continued running, looking helplessly back at the two they left behind being relentlessly attacked as they lay on the ground. This is just one of the hundreds of shameful injustices seen in Cairo's Tahrir Square where Egypt's military took a dramatically heavy hand on Saturday to crush protests against its rule. Aya Emad told the AP that troops dragged her by her headscarf and hair into the Cabinet headquarters. The 24-year-old said soldiers kicked her on the ground, an officer shocked her with an electrical prod and another slapped her on the face, leaving her nose broken and her arm in a sling. Mona Seif, an activist who was briefly detained Friday, said she saw an officer repeatedly slapping a detained old woman in the face. 'It was a humiliating scene,' Seif told the private TV network Al-Nahar. 'I have never seen this in my life.' In Bahrain a similar pictured was emerging with a video clip showing a female human rights activist being hit by a policewoman during clashes between police and anti-government protesters. Police fired teargas to break up a demonstration by several hundred people on the outskirts of the capital, Manama where several women staged a sit-in protest trying to block a main road. After nearly 48 hours of continuous fighting in Egypt's capital more than 300 were left injured and nine dead, many of them shot dead. The most sustained crackdown yet is likely a sign that the generals who took power after the February ouster of Hosni Mubarak are confident that the Egyptian public is on its side after two rounds of widely acclaimed parliament elections, that Islamist parties winning the vote will stay out of the fight while pro-democracy protesters become more isolated. Still, the generals risk turning more Egyptians against them, especially from outrage over the abuse of women. 'Do they think this is manly?' Toqa Nosseir, a 19-year old student, said of the attacks on women. 'Where is the dignity?' Nosseir joined the protest over her parents' objections because she couldn't tolerate the clashes she had seen. 'No one can approve or accept what is happening here,' she said. 'The military council wants to silence all criticism. They want to hold on power ... I will not accept this humiliation just for the sake of stability.' Nearby in Tahrir, protesters held up newspapers with the image of the half-stripped woman on the front page to passing cars, shouting sarcastically, 'This is the army that is protecting us!' 'No one can approve or accept what is happening here,' she said. 'The military council wants to silence all criticism. They want to hold on power ... I will not accept this humiliation just for the sake of stability.' Nearby in Tahrir, protesters held up newspapers with the image of the half-stripped woman on the front page to passing cars, shouting sarcastically, 'This is the army that is protecting us!' 'Are you not ashamed?' leading reform figure and Nobel Peace laureate Mohamed ElBaradei posted on Twitter in an address to the ruling military council. Egypt's new, military-appointed interim prime minister defended the military, denying it shot protesters. He said gunshot deaths were caused by other attackers he didn't identify. He accused the protesters of being 'anti-revolution.' The main street between Tahrir Square, the epicenter of the anti-Mubarak protests, and the parliament and Cabinet buildings where the clashes began early the previous morning looked like a war zone on Saturday. Military police on rooftops pelting protesters below with stones and firebombs and launched truncheon-swinging assaults to drive the crowds back. Young activists put helmets or buckets on their heads or grabbed sheets of concrete and even satellite dishes as protection against the stones hailing down from the roofs. The streets were strewn with chunks of concrete, stones ,broken glass, burned furniture and peddlers' carts as clashes continued to rage after nightfall Saturday. The clashes began early on Friday with a military assault on a 3-week-old sit-in outside the Cabinet building by protesters demanding the military hand over power immediately to civilians. More than a week of heavy fighting erupted in November, leaving more than 40 dead – but that was largely between police and protesters, with the military keeping a low profile. In the afternoon, military police charged into Tahrir, swinging truncheons and long sticks, briefly chasing out protesters and setting fire to their tents. They trashed a field hospital set up by protesters, swept into buildings where television crews were filming and briefly detained journalists. They tossed the camera and equipment of an Al-Jazeera TV crew off the balcony of a building. A journalist who was briefly detained told The Associated Press that he was beaten up with sticks and fists while being led to into the parliament building. Inside, he saw a group of detained young men and one woman. Each was surrounded by six or seven soldiers beating him or her with sticks or steel bars or giving electrical shocks with prods. As night fell in Tahrir, clashes continued around a concrete wall that the military erected to block the avenue from Tahrir to parliament. In Bahrain, Zainab al-Khawaja, 27, was arrested and dragged across the floor by her handcuffs after police fired teargas to break up a demonstration by several hundred people on the outskirts of the capital, Manama. Ms al-Khawaja and several other women staged a sit-in protest trying to block a main road. The other women fled the scene but Ms al-Khawaja refused. Riot police fired tear gas at the women, with dozens requiring hospital treatment after the incident. A report by a panel of human rights experts in November found that Bahraini security forces had used excessive forces and carried out the systematic abuse of prisoners, including torture, when the regime sent in troops to crush the uprising in March.
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