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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Dec 26 09:18:52 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by Train Dude on Sun Dec 26 08:52:52 2004. This is the same ACLU that fought on Long Island, Conneticuit and elsewhere for the KKK to hold rallies on public streets. Does the ACLU give added weight to freedom of speech and assembly on public property over freedom of religion on public property?I don't understand your point. The ACLU would be 100% in favor of someone parading back and forth on a public street holding up a sign advocating their religious beliefs, whether standard Catholic, or Jewish, or fundamentalist Christian, or anything else. And I'm not aware of any government in the US prventing that kind of expression. Do you see the police telling the "mitzvah tanks" or the Jews for Jesus or the Falun Gong folks to move on? What they would oppose would be government sponsorship of religious symbols. After all, they would vigorously oppose government sponsorship of the Klan's message. |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by BMT Dude on Sun Dec 26 09:20:26 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by Anon_e_mouse on Sun Dec 26 09:15:19 2004. C.K., I thought you lived in Southern Jersey...at least that's what all the BERA guys thought?? |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Dec 26 09:24:10 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by Train Dude on Sun Dec 26 09:03:48 2004. For the same reason that some schools in the north-east banned the singing of "Jingle-Bells" at school holiday pageants as a Christmas Carol.Assuming your facts are true, nobody here ever claimed that every local government had common sense. There's lots of really stupid people out there. There's lot of people, in government and the school systems, who are so concerned about offending that they lose all sense of what's important. But if you're going to get upset about that, you'll end up with ulcers for sure. The world just isn't perfect. And for every municipal official or school official who leans over backward so far not to offend as to be a moron, there's another two who are totally offensive and don't care. |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Dec 26 09:39:47 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by Train Dude on Sun Dec 26 09:03:48 2004. You have got to be kidding.And if people think songs like "Jingle Bells" or "Santa Claus is coming to Town" have anything to do with religion, they have completely gone nuts. It's so ridiculous. I can understand songs like "Silent Night" and "Oh Come all Ye Faithful" being banned, but "Jingle Bells"?!? Please. |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by Anon_e_mouse on Sun Dec 26 09:41:15 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by BMT Dude on Sun Dec 26 09:20:26 2004. Eatontown... exit 105 on the Parkway. We're still in electric territory for NJT. South of the Raritan, yes, but north of the Pinelands, which is the general definition of where South Jersey begins.Until next time... Anon_e_mouse |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Dec 26 09:42:02 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by Anon_e_mouse on Sun Dec 26 09:12:42 2004. Yeah, and he sure is a religious figure riding through the sky on a sleigh behind flying reindeer (and sometimes one with a red glowing nose), after spending the rest of the year cooped up in a cold building with a bunc of elfs.Please. |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sun Dec 26 09:44:07 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by BMT Dude on Sun Dec 26 09:10:18 2004. On second thought - don't look it up. It's not the issue after all. In the past there were always the Madeline Murray O'Hares who would fight anything religious including "In God We Trust" on coins. I always viewed her as an annoyance and a crack-pot. Unfortunately, it seems as a backlash to our President's 2000 & 2004 election victories, the religious-right has felt a certain flexing of its muscle while the secularist left is reacting.I'm Jewish although not as devout as I ought to be. I also have a wife who is Methodist and grandchildren who are Catholic. I grew up in Brownsville, Brooklyn where on Christmas, regardless of our religion, we exchanged gifts with our neighbors. I went to schools in Brooklyn, Queens, Long Island and even Staten Island where the sight of a Menorah or a Nativity Scene was placed for those who wanted to enjoy it or to be ignored by those who didn't. I always looked upon the holiday season as a time where there was always something to look forward to. Something to brighten up the otherwise dreary winter. This year, our town hall still had holiday decorations. Belmont Lake State Park still had the big tree lit up with a star on top. I don't care that these are not symbols of my religion. I care that they are meant to bring a little joy and a little beauty to the season. I don't care that public space is used for the display around town hall. I don't care that tax dollars pay for the electric that lights up that tree. I don't care that my grandchildren are exposed to other religious traditions in school. I don't think it will hurt them. After all, it didn't really hurt any of us who grew up in the 50s, 60s or 70s. Yet here we are, debating it and fighting about it in courts. For what? Because of fear of the religious right? Like it or not, our moral codes and most laws that we live by, for the most part have some basis in religious teachings. (please don't post the exceptions - they are irrelovent) I think you can teach civics in school without reference to religion but it would be like building a house without a foundation. Forgive me but I just do not see the danger in allowing religion into the public sector as long as the government does not favor one over the other. What is clear is that here, we've dug in our heels and are set in our positions. I don't think that anyone will be persuaded to change their point of view from the arguments posted here. Was anyone here, who grew up in the 50s or 60s (and I know that I'm not alone) damaged by exposure to other religions in school? Do you really think that kids will be damaged today? If so, how far do we take it? Do we ban any reference to Christmas over the television and radio that use public airways and are regulated by the Federal Government? Just how far do you want to take this? |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sun Dec 26 09:49:54 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Dec 26 09:39:47 2004. I can't understand any being banned as long as you ban none. We ought to be looking to inclusion instead of exclusion. |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Dec 26 09:49:54 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by AlM on Sun Dec 26 09:12:41 2004. Again, it's not because Sunday is a religious day, but because it's a day of lower business volume.Exactly. For many businesses, it would actually cost them more more money to open up and pay overhead for that day than they would even take in that day. And for the small fraction of business that may occur that day, it could be done the next day, when the place is open anyway. If the vast majority of people in this country celebrated Yom Kippur, the same policies would hold true, except for different holidays. This has nothing to do with religion, it is business. |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by BIE on Sun Dec 26 09:53:51 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by Train Dude on Sun Dec 26 09:49:54 2004. TRUTH. |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by BIE on Sun Dec 26 09:58:56 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by Train Dude on Sun Dec 26 09:49:54 2004. The problem seems to be that fundamentalist Christians seek to minimize the other holidays and seek a favored status for their holiday. That is not acceptable. As you said "We ought to be looking to inclusion instead of exclusion." |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sun Dec 26 10:14:49 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by BIE on Sun Dec 26 09:58:56 2004. Ah, but as long as government is even-handed, why be concerned that each religion thinks its message is the most important. |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by BIE on Sun Dec 26 10:16:34 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by Train Dude on Sun Dec 26 10:14:49 2004. even handedness IS the goal. |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Dec 26 10:25:14 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by BMT Dude on Sun Dec 26 08:51:29 2004. Then what's happenning is that those in the 'Bible Belt' are teaching their young that candy canes ARE a religious symbol (why am I NOT surprised?).I'm not urprised either, but that doesn't mean that it is a "religious" symbol across the board. To me, as a Catholic, a candy cane is "just a piece of candy", and that is what it is to the vast majority of Christian. A candy cane to most Christians is no more religious than a candy cane is to a Jewish person. If I as a fundamentalist Christian decide that a maple tree is some sort of religious symbol, does than mean it's religious to every Christian? Does that mean that maple trees should be cut down from places where it isn't considered religious, just because one group says it's "religious"? |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by L Train on Sun Dec 26 11:30:56 2004, in response to Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by R36 #9346 on Mon Dec 20 15:48:20 2004. I thought of a fair compromise:Have signs saying "Merry Christmas", "Happy Channukah", and "Happy Kwanzaa". That way everyone gets what they want. |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Dec 26 11:41:58 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by Train Dude on Sun Dec 26 08:52:52 2004. Actually, I was thinking about this some more, and I am now wondering what the "big" deal is.We have "Black (African-American) History Month", and in schools, etc, you can have banners proclaiming such. There are many times when they have banners proclaiming, "[Fill in the blank] Month". So what. What is wrong with other cultures, religions, races having something once in a while on "public property". You will NEVER have everything that will cover every single person. Even the 4th of July probably has people in this country that aren't covered under that holiday. If someone wants to be "politically correct" about every single holiday, there isn't anything left. So what if a Menorah is placed in front of a courthouse when Jews are celebrating Chanukah. So what if a Christmas tree (which is debatable if it's even a religious symbol, and I don't see it as such) is placed in front of Town Hall. So what if some "African-American" symbol is placed in front of the Library for "Quanza". Don't do it because whites may be offended? I mean really. I am not offended if I see a Star of David over the street when they put the holiday lights up in December, I don't understand what the big deal is. It means something to some people, and means nothing to others. Who cares. We should be learning about other people's cultures and beliefs, not getting a bug up our asses everytime we see some symbol that doesn't pertain to us. Put the Nativity scene on the Town Hall property. It is not saying "This is what you must believe in", it is put there for those that it means something, which are just as much americans as anyone else. Put the Manorah there at Chanukah. It means something to some, but nothing to otheres. So what. It's not saying "Jewish is better than others", it's honoring those that believe in what it represents, and they are Americans just as much as those that don't recognize that symbol. |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Dec 26 11:45:48 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Dec 26 11:41:58 2004. Sorry, I meant "Kwanzaa", not "Quanza",, but you know what I mean.... |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by American Pig on Sun Dec 26 11:46:53 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by Train Dude on Sun Dec 26 09:03:48 2004. Where do you get all this?Jingle Bells has stuff about Batman's odor, Robin laying eggs, the Batmobile losing its wheels and the Joker getting away. :-) |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by American Pig on Sun Dec 26 11:48:04 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by Train Dude on Sun Dec 26 09:49:54 2004. Silent Night should not be sung at public school holiday pageants. |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Dec 26 11:52:28 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by BIE on Sun Dec 26 10:16:34 2004. And that's the point. Because a group of radical fundamentalists believe in Christmas, it has to be associated with the other religions that believe in Christmas too?That's like saying every Islamic person is an extremist just because there are fundamentalist Islamics that practice Islam in their own way. It's no different that comparing fundamentalist Christians to other Christians. |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by American Pig on Sun Dec 26 11:54:29 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by vengence on Sun Dec 26 01:35:09 2004. Does this line of reasoning make you feel better? |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sun Dec 26 12:10:49 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Dec 26 11:41:58 2004. Absolutely correct, and I only wish that I thought of the Black History Month example. But that was my point - exactly.... |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sun Dec 26 12:11:31 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by American Pig on Sun Dec 26 11:46:53 2004. Still readin the "Weekly reader", I see. |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sun Dec 26 12:11:53 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by American Pig on Sun Dec 26 11:48:04 2004. Why not? |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by American Pig on Sun Dec 26 12:26:17 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Dec 26 11:41:58 2004. We have "Black (African-American) History Month", and in schools, etc, you can have banners proclaiming such. There are many times when they have banners proclaiming, "[Fill in the blank] Month".African-American is not a religion. Besides, they have Black History Month in February, and White History Month in January, March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November and December. So what. What is wrong with other cultures, religions, races having something once in a while on "public property". You don't get it. A nativity scene on public property is there because the government of the jurisdiction decided to place it there for the observance of a RELIGIOUS holiday. That is wrong. It has nothing to do with multiculturalism. You will NEVER have everything that will cover every single person. Yes you will. Why can't city hall on December 25 look just like city hall on May 19? There is no reason why the government should celebrate non-governmental holidays. Even the 4th of July probably has people in this country that aren't covered under that holiday. So what? It is a recorded historical event which commemorates the foundation of this country. It is the type of holiday that governments can celebrate. I don't see how an American isn't covered by Independence Day. If someone wants to be "politically correct" about every single holiday, there isn't anything left. Martin Luther King Day (should be renamed Freedom Day) President's Day Armed Forces Day Memorial Day Independence Day Constitution Day Veterans Day Thanksgiving So what if a Menorah is placed in front of a courthouse when Jews are celebrating Chanukah...So what if some "African-American" symbol is placed in front of the Library for "Quanza". Courts should not be celebrating religious holidays. (note: I removed the tree reference, because I am not responding to it) We should be learning about other people's cultures and beliefs, not getting a bug up our asses everytime we see some symbol that doesn't pertain to us. This is asinine. I have no wish to celebrate other people's holidays and do not wish for my government to do so. Put the Nativity scene on the Town Hall property. It is not saying "This is what you must believe in", it is put there for those that it means something, which are just as much americans as anyone else The government is not there to reinforce people's religious beliefs. |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by American Pig on Sun Dec 26 12:26:42 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by Train Dude on Sun Dec 26 12:10:49 2004. Black History is not a religion. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by American Pig on Sun Dec 26 12:29:35 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by L Train on Sun Dec 26 11:30:56 2004. NO!People who celebrate other religious holidays, or none at all during that time of year get nothing. Why do you need any signs? Do they put up signs on August 12th saying HAPPY LOVE DAY? Why is it necessary to put up signs in December? |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by American Pig on Sun Dec 26 12:41:11 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by Train Dude on Sun Dec 26 12:11:53 2004. Do you know what the lyrics to that song are? |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sun Dec 26 12:58:41 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by American Pig on Sun Dec 26 12:26:42 2004. It does give the appearance of government supporting one race over another. We have Hispanic Herritage Month. Do we have Oriental Herritage month. Should orientals object because government recognizes blacks and hispanics but not orientals? |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sun Dec 26 13:01:21 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by American Pig on Sun Dec 26 12:41:11 2004. Absolutely! And I don't, even as a Jew, find then in any way offensive nor do I see why they should not be part of a holiday pageant in or out of school. To date, your arguments have not been persuasive. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sun Dec 26 13:13:53 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by American Pig on Sun Dec 26 12:29:35 2004. Eastern Parkway is closed one day each year for the West Indian Day Parade. That's the government officially recognizing one ethnic group. There is no corresponding closure of Roosevelt Ave or Canal Street for Orient Day. Does the government favor West indians over Chinese? Maybe the ACLU should look into that, too. |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Dec 26 13:27:46 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by American Pig on Sun Dec 26 12:26:42 2004. Black History is not a religion.So what? Religion is culture too. Yes, obviously you can "choose" your religion easier than your race, but what difference does that make. A Jew is born a Jew, his parents go through all the practices that make him Jewish when he is a child and growing up. A Catholic family goes through all the practices that make him Catholic. The government putting a Hispanic symbol on their property for Hispanic Month is no different than the government putting a menorah there for Chanukah. If you want to say that the message of a menorah is "preferring" one religion over others, than a Hispanic symbol for Hispanic history month is preferring one race/culture over the others too. |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by American Pig on Sun Dec 26 13:35:08 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by Train Dude on Sun Dec 26 13:01:21 2004. They are not offensive, but schools should not practice religion. If the Christian club wants to put on a play after school where students may choose to attend, then they can sing whatever they want. |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by American Pig on Sun Dec 26 13:35:57 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by Train Dude on Sun Dec 26 12:58:41 2004. Maybe there should be one fewer White History Month to make room for Asian History Month. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by American Pig on Sun Dec 26 13:37:21 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by Train Dude on Sun Dec 26 13:13:53 2004. They have a parade in Chinatown for Chinese New Year. |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Dec 26 13:41:58 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by American Pig on Sun Dec 26 12:26:17 2004. We have "Black (African-American) History Month", and in schools, etc, you can have banners proclaiming such. There are many times when they have banners proclaiming, "[Fill in the blank] Month".African-American is not a religion. Yes, but it is a culture, just like being Jewish is culture, being Catholic is culture, or being Islamic is culture, etc. Besides, they have Black History Month in February, and White History Month in January, March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November and December. So what? There is not Nativity scene in front of the courthouse in January to November either. There's no menorah in front of the Courthouse 11 months of the year either. So what. What is wrong with other cultures, religions, races having something once in a while on "public property". You don't get it. A nativity scene on public property is there because the government of the jurisdiction decided to place it there for the observance of a RELIGIOUS holiday. That is wrong. It has nothing to do with multiculturalism. So, an African-American item is placed on the the lawn for Black History month. Christmas is a custom and part of a culture just as much as some Black symbol may be. You will NEVER have everything that will cover every single person. Yes you will. Why can't city hall on December 25 look just like city hall on May 19? There is no reason why the government should celebrate non-governmental holidays. Because on May 19th, there is no cultural occurance going on. Why can't the courthouse look the same during Black History Month on February 19th as it does on May 19th? Why should the courthouse be closed on Martin Luther King day, when many people in a city are not black? Even the 4th of July probably has people in this country that aren't covered under that holiday. So what? It is a recorded historical event which commemorates the foundation of this country. It is the type of holiday that governments can celebrate. I don't see how an American isn't covered by Independence Day. Someone could be a legal alien and may be offended. Some liberals could probably argue that illegal aliens aren't covered. I didn't say it made sense, just that there "could" be people not covered by Independence day. So what if a Menorah is placed in front of a courthouse when Jews are celebrating Chanukah...So what if some "African-American" symbol is placed in front of the Library for "[Kwanzaa". Courts should not be celebrating religious holidays. They are not celebrating a holiday, they are acknowledging that it is a holiday a portion of the population may be celebrating. We should be learning about other people's cultures and beliefs, not getting a bug up our asses everytime we see some symbol that doesn't pertain to us. This is asinine. I have no wish to celebrate other people's holidays and do not wish for my government to do so. Who said everyone should be celebrating other people's cultures? I said that people should be learning about other people's cultures and beliefs. It makes people more tolerant of others. Put the Nativity scene on the Town Hall property. It is not saying "This is what you must believe in", it is put there for those that it means something, which are just as much americans as anyone else The government is not there to reinforce people's religious beliefs. They aren't though. Having a menorah next to a nativity scene, or whatever is not reinforcing people's beliefs. If a symbol means nothing to people, it is just another object, and is meaningless. |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Dec 26 13:43:02 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by American Pig on Sun Dec 26 12:26:17 2004. We have "Black (African-American) History Month", and in schools, etc, you can have banners proclaiming such. There are many times when they have banners proclaiming, "[Fill in the blank] Month".African-American is not a religion. Yes, but it is a culture, just like being Jewish is culture, being Catholic is culture, or being Islamic is culture, etc. Besides, they have Black History Month in February, and White History Month in January, March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November and December. So what? There is not Nativity scene in front of the courthouse in January to November either. There's no menorah in front of the Courthouse 11 months of the year either. So what. What is wrong with other cultures, religions, races having something once in a while on "public property". You don't get it. A nativity scene on public property is there because the government of the jurisdiction decided to place it there for the observance of a RELIGIOUS holiday. That is wrong. It has nothing to do with multiculturalism. So, an African-American item is placed on the the lawn for Black History month. Christmas is a custom and part of a culture just as much as some Black symbol may be. You will NEVER have everything that will cover every single person. Yes you will. Why can't city hall on December 25 look just like city hall on May 19? There is no reason why the government should celebrate non-governmental holidays. Because on May 19th, there is no cultural occurance going on. Why can't the courthouse look the same during Black History Month on February 19th as it does on May 19th? Why should the courthouse be closed on Martin Luther King day, when many people in a city are not black? Even the 4th of July probably has people in this country that aren't covered under that holiday. So what? It is a recorded historical event which commemorates the foundation of this country. It is the type of holiday that governments can celebrate. I don't see how an American isn't covered by Independence Day. Someone could be a legal alien and may be offended. Some liberals could probably argue that illegal aliens aren't covered. I didn't say it made sense, just that there "could" be people not covered by Independence day. So what if a Menorah is placed in front of a courthouse when Jews are celebrating Chanukah...So what if some "African-American" symbol is placed in front of the Library for "[Kwanzaa". Courts should not be celebrating religious holidays. They are not celebrating a holiday, they are acknowledging that it is a holiday a portion of the population may be celebrating. We should be learning about other people's cultures and beliefs, not getting a bug up our asses everytime we see some symbol that doesn't pertain to us. This is asinine. I have no wish to celebrate other people's holidays and do not wish for my government to do so. Who said everyone should be celebrating other people's cultures? I said that people should be learning about other people's cultures and beliefs. It makes people more tolerant of others. Put the Nativity scene on the Town Hall property. It is not saying "This is what you must believe in", it is put there for those that it means something, which are just as much americans as anyone else The government is not there to reinforce people's religious beliefs. They aren't though. Having a menorah next to a nativity scene, or whatever is not reinforcing people's beliefs. If a symbol means nothing to people, it is just another object, and is meaningless. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Dec 26 13:45:37 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by American Pig on Sun Dec 26 13:37:21 2004. So what? That isn't Eastern Parkway.And how offensive! They close down Canal St for a parade in Chinatown for the Chinese New Year! Only Chinese people celebrate Chinese New Year! How can the government allow such a thing, when everyone doesn't celebrate this holiday! |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Dec 26 13:47:08 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by American Pig on Sun Dec 26 12:29:35 2004. How terrible! They close Mulberry St for the San Genaro festival! How offensive! Only Italians celebrate this!Let's have no cultural events in the city because it may be offensive to other cultures! |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Dec 26 13:48:24 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Dec 26 13:47:08 2004. Let me rephrase that:Only Italians CATHOLICS celebrate this! That's offensive to all all other cultures, and Italians that are not Catholic! |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by Anon_e_mouse on Sun Dec 26 13:56:35 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Dec 26 13:47:08 2004. Yes, it is terrible. Why should the government close a street and disrupt traffic - especially traffic in an already congested area - for the benefit of a select few? Our government should act for the benefit of ALL AMERICANS, not just individual groups. Closing the streets for a parade in observance of a national holiday - and by that I mean a holiday which celebrates our country, its patriots, and important milestones in its history - is one thing. Closing the streets for a parade or a festival that celebrates religion or a foreign culture is just plain wrong. With all due respects to those who would celebrate Wherever-American Day: if you believe that Wherever is such a great place and worthy of disrupting America to celebrate it, why don't you go back to Wherever, and leave America for the Americans. I could very easily hyphenate my heritage (although it would take a lot of hyphens to cover it all), but I don't. I'm an American. Period. And I'm proud of it.Until next time... Anon_e_mouse |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by American Pig on Sun Dec 26 13:58:42 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Dec 26 13:41:58 2004. Yes, but it is a culture, just like being Jewish is culture, being Catholic is culture, or being Islamic is culture, etc.It's also religion. So, an African-American item is placed on the the lawn for Black History month. Christmas is a custom and part of a culture just as much as some Black symbol may be. There is nothing in the Constitution about separation of culture and state. Because on May 19th, there is no cultural occurance going on. Of course there is. Shavuot could fall on May 19th in a particular year. That's a "cultural" occurence. Why should the courthouse be closed on Martin Luther King day, when many people in a city are not black? So Martin Luther King Day, a day which commemorates the fight for the equality of ALL people is only a holiday for black people according to you? Someone could be a legal alien and may be offended. Then what are they doing here? Some liberals could probably argue that illegal aliens aren't covered. Of course they are. They risked their lives to come here. They are not celebrating a holiday, they are acknowledging that it is a holiday a portion of the population may be celebrating. Why should they? If enough people want that day off they can close out of convenience, but why must they do anything else? Are you offended if a courthouse DOESN'T put a nativity scene on their property? So why should they? Who said everyone should be celebrating other people's cultures? I said that people should be learning about other people's cultures and beliefs. It makes people more tolerant of others. If you want to learn, there are libraries and museums, supported by the government. They aren't though. Having a menorah next to a nativity scene, or whatever is not reinforcing people's beliefs. If a symbol means nothing to people, it is just another object, and is meaningless. That is where you are wrong. All objects have some sort of meaning. It means that the government wants to celebrate religious holidays and celebrates the holidays of other religions in order to make things equal. If everyone doesn't celebrate every religious holiday, why must the state? |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on Sun Dec 26 14:01:50 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Dec 26 13:47:08 2004. Of course, at the San Genaro festival, they SELL THINGS!! Lots to people (not just Italians) attend! Closing Mulberry St. is for traffic control. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by American Pig on Sun Dec 26 14:02:04 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Dec 26 13:45:37 2004. All of those parades are run by PRIVATE groups. The streets get closed because of a permit that the city gives them. They are using their right to peaceably assemble. The city feels that allowing these people to parade without interference from cars is more important than rerouting traffic to Atlantic Avenue. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Dec 26 14:03:44 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by Anon_e_mouse on Sun Dec 26 13:56:35 2004. I don't agree. I do agree with the "...if it was so great in [fill in a blank], maybe you should go back to [blank]", however, that does not mean that the city does not benefit from cultural events.I am not Italian, but can enjoy the San Genaro festival. It has great food, and is a nice way to spend the day, in a diverse city. I am not Hispanic, however can certainly enjoy a Hispanic festival, in my diverse city, for the cultural experience, as well as the food, and I love Hispanic food. I am not Chinese, but I find the Chinese New Year festivities quite interesting.I am not Irish, but do enjoy much of the festivites that goes on for St Patricks Day. The list goes on. If I am not inbterested in something going on at the San Genaro festival, I am free to avoid Mulberry St and Canal St that day. It doesn't make me feel that they should not be enjoying their heritage. While I do feel immigrants should be assimilating, and taking on American culture, language, etc if they choose to live in this country, I do not feel they should be giving up their heritage or culture either, and I see nothing wrong with them celebrating it once a year by closing a street, by permit. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by American Pig on Sun Dec 26 14:03:55 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by Anon_e_mouse on Sun Dec 26 13:56:35 2004. I like this. I see no problem with the San Genarro festival because nobody uses those streets, but it's always annoying when there's a parade on Fifth Avenue and not only because it's impossible to go crosstown. |
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Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas |
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Posted by American Pig on Sun Dec 26 14:04:55 2004, in response to Re: Media Taking Christmas out of Christmas, posted by Dan Lawrence on Sun Dec 26 14:01:50 2004. Isn't Mulberry Street closed on weekends as it is? |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by BMT Dude on Sun Dec 26 14:07:23 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Dec 26 09:42:02 2004. Actually, the story of Santa Claus living at the north pole with elves being obedient slaves, and the flying reindeer and all the rest of the myth -- if it weren't so ingrained into today's culture -- would sound like the rantings of someone on some serious hallucinagenics! |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by American Pig on Sun Dec 26 14:13:12 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by BMT Dude on Sun Dec 26 14:07:23 2004. In Japan they call him Annual Gift-giving Man and he lives on the Moon. |
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Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists |
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Posted by BMT Dude on Sun Dec 26 14:18:37 2004, in response to Re: No, It's the Liberal Secularists, posted by Train Dude on Sun Dec 26 09:12:51 2004. Well, TD, I went to the Osgood Report at CBS 880 and didn't find anything about a ban on Jingle Bells at a school. Perhaps you have the particular name of the piece? I did a search at Osgood Report for 'Jingle Bells Ban' but the search came up negative.... |
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