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NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Aug 23 16:19:45 2011

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Yes, graphic. Drugged-up orgies, descriptions of graphic sex between a 31-year-old woman and a 13-year-old girl, "required reading" for high school honors sophomores? Sounds like this Earling fellow approved of the smut-peddling.

Gloucester County Times

Risqué summer reading selections have parents upset, school officials scrapping books in Monroe Township

Published: Monday, August 22, 2011, 4:00 AM
By Rebecca Forand/Gloucester County Times
MONROE TWP. — Summer reading has been a time-honored tradition at schools across the country, but for one local school it has caused more controversy this year as arguments about content and age-appropriateness have ensued.

While students have traditionally reported to the bookstore to pick up their copies of “Of Mice and Men,” “Catcher in the Rye” and “Great Expectations,” Williamstown High School’s students had a new list to choose from — a list that included three books that many parents believe included material not suitable for children.

One such selection, “Norwegian Wood,” which was on the required reading list for incoming tenth-grade honors English students, includes a graphic depiction of a lesbian sex scene between a 31-year-old woman and a 13-year-old girl.

“I don’t think that’s relevant for any teenager,” said Robin Myers, whose daughter was assigned the book. “I was just kind of in shock.”

Another selection, from the seniors honors class, “Tweak (Growing up on Methamphetamines),” describes a drug-fueled, homosexual orgy.

The school board received multiple complaints from parents at its board meeting Thursday, and the school’s administration has since removed the books from the list.

“Some of the language is inappropriate, and we missed it in our committee that scanned the books,” said Superintendent Chuck Earling. “When you have a problem and make a mistake, admit it. I admit we should have screened the reading details more so.”

The summer reading curriculum has changed throughout the years at many schools, as the older “classics” are abandoned for newer, more cutting-edge books that districts hope will interest students more.

At Gateway Regional High School, the required reading lists for its students includes a multitude of choices, some of which could possibly include questionable material. But the school details that information in the summer work packet that is sent home and available online.

For its tenth grade students, there are 74 books in four categories, some of which are marked with an asterisk to denote that the book could have “mild, non-explicit controversial content to content involving adult situations, drug/alcohol use, excessive violence, and/or vulgar language.”

“We let the parents know right from the start. We try to be honest with people and say ‘if you don’t want your son or daughter to read this, we understand,’” said Gateway High School’s Principal Steven Hindman. “I think it’s important that kids have some choice sometimes and our list allows them to.”

Earling thinks that despite the controversy over this year’s book list, it is still important to switch it up on occasion. “You want to spur interest in kids reading that fits their needs, not that of people in the 1930s,” he said. “Interests change.”

The school has decided to use this negative incident as a learning experience, according to Earling. For next year’s reading list, the school hopes to add some parents to the committee that chooses summer reading selections, which currently consists of staff members and administrators, and to utilize software that can scan books for inappropriate material.”

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Re: NJ Town Pulls Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists

Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Tue Aug 23 16:42:06 2011, in response to NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Aug 23 16:19:45 2011.

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Gee, where will you go now to get your gay printed matter now. Pennsylvania? Will you and laluch drive to the xxx store together while listening to Rush Limbaugh?

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(833881)

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Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage

Posted by Streetcarman1 on Tue Aug 23 16:46:06 2011, in response to NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Aug 23 16:19:45 2011.

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" Sounds like this Earling fellow approved of the smut-peddling."

Sounds like he made an honest mistake...don't you Olog?



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(833883)

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Re: NJ Town Pulls Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists

Posted by Streetcarman1 on Tue Aug 23 16:47:49 2011, in response to Re: NJ Town Pulls Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists, posted by SUBWAYSURF on Tue Aug 23 16:42:06 2011.

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"Gee, where will you go now to get your gay printed matter now. Pennsylvania? Will you and laluch drive to the xxx store together while listening to Rush Limbaugh?"

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(833891)

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Re: NJ Town Pulls Gay Sex Books From HIGH SCHOOL Summer Reading Lists

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 23 16:56:51 2011, in response to Re: NJ Town Pulls Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists, posted by SUBWAYSURF on Tue Aug 23 16:42:06 2011.

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Subject corrected further.

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Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Aug 23 17:05:05 2011, in response to Re: NJ Town Pulls Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists, posted by SUBWAYSURF on Tue Aug 23 16:42:06 2011.

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You're OK with the state foisting porn on high-school students then, I take it? The state?

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Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists

Posted by Streetcarman1 on Tue Aug 23 17:19:08 2011, in response to Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Aug 23 17:05:05 2011.

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"You're OK with the state foisting porn on high-school students then, I take it? The state?"

Say Olog....stop putting your foot into your mouth....I mean ass...lol....

Why not admit publicly that these books are part of your personal collection.



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Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage

Posted by Amanda on Tue Aug 23 17:19:58 2011, in response to NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Aug 23 16:19:45 2011.

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"Tweak" (and the companion novel "Beautiful Boy")should be on every teenager's reading list. It's non-fiction, not some made up drug-fueled homosexual orgy. It's a raw, painful book to read about the author's struggle with drugs, and serves as wake-up call to the dangers. I gave both books to my 13-year-old niece to read.

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Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists

Posted by Train Dude on Tue Aug 23 17:38:50 2011, in response to Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists, posted by Streetcarman1 on Tue Aug 23 17:19:08 2011.

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Why are you such an asshole?

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Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists

Posted by Streetcarman1 on Tue Aug 23 17:52:01 2011, in response to Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists, posted by Train Dude on Tue Aug 23 17:38:50 2011.

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"Why are you such an asshole?"

Wow...so that's what you say to yourself when you look in the mirror at night...I thought so...lol




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(833943)

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Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Aug 23 18:04:03 2011, in response to Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists, posted by Train Dude on Tue Aug 23 17:38:50 2011.

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Never mind some on this thread verifying the "righties'" concerns about a "gay agenda".

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(833949)

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Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists

Posted by JayMan on Tue Aug 23 18:06:41 2011, in response to Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Aug 23 17:05:05 2011.

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What's the matter, are you worried that this will warp their minds and twist them towards perversion?

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Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists

Posted by Streetcarman1 on Tue Aug 23 18:07:34 2011, in response to Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Aug 23 18:04:03 2011.

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"Never mind some on this thread verifying the "righties'" concerns about a "gay agenda".

Yes....some of us are right-handed......how about you Olog? which hand do you use?

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Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Aug 23 18:13:44 2011, in response to Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage, posted by Amanda on Tue Aug 23 17:19:58 2011.

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You want high-school sophomores to be required to read stuff like this . . . ?
"I was living in New York, turning tricks. I'd been up for a days doing coke and crystal and drinking so much, I mean so f***ing much. This very muscular guy whose name, I think, was Brian, had picked me up at this cheesy gay bar where they give you free drinks if you take your shirt off. They were his drugs. I had no money. I ended up back at my apartment in the middle of this orgy of guys. Vaguely I remember someone eating out my a**, while my d*** refused to get h@rd. Then I just gave up and let whoever wanted to f*** me, f*** me."
— "Tweak", page 61

Why are you giving stuff like this to your young niece?

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Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists

Posted by Streetcarman1 on Tue Aug 23 18:15:56 2011, in response to Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists, posted by JayMan on Tue Aug 23 18:06:41 2011.

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"What's the matter, are you worried that this will warp their minds and twist them towards perversion?"

You bet....he's worried they the turned into full fledged Republicans as adults after their minds have become so corrupt from these books..... :)



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Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Aug 23 18:17:55 2011, in response to Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists, posted by JayMan on Tue Aug 23 18:06:41 2011.

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They're being forced to read them. Has the state forgotten about free will, or the rights of parents?

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Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage

Posted by Amanda on Tue Aug 23 18:30:14 2011, in response to Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Aug 23 18:13:44 2011.

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Because kids in her school - her age - are already hooked on meth and having sex. Kids know a lot more today than we did at their age. They're not playing with Barbies anymore. She's emotionally mature for her age, far more than I was at 13. You should read conversations these kids are having on Facebook - it boggles my mind.

This book is not glamorous at all - it's raw, it's emotional, and yes, also sometimes extremely graphic. But you want to know what it's like to be a true addict? This book describes it and would have been effective at scaring me away from drugs at that age.

I made sure to run it by her father first and warned him.

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Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Aug 23 18:34:48 2011, in response to Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage, posted by Amanda on Tue Aug 23 18:30:14 2011.

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Because kids in her school - her age - are already hooked on meth and having sex

No, this and your other arguments are nonsense. There's no cause for this morass; it just happened?

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Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage

Posted by Amanda on Tue Aug 23 18:42:16 2011, in response to Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Aug 23 18:34:48 2011.

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Why is this argument nonsense? I've had very frank discussions with her and I was quite surprised how much she knows.

I'm not saying every 13-year-old is going to be emotionally mature enough to read this, but teenagers should pick up this book at some point. What do you think is the appropriate way to show them the realities of meth addiction? A Lifetime movie?

You feel disgusted at Nic Scheff for a good part of the book, including the graphic scenes like this. It's not for some perverted reading pleasure.

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Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage

Posted by SMAZ on Tue Aug 23 18:50:16 2011, in response to Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage, posted by Amanda on Tue Aug 23 18:30:14 2011.

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When I was a 12-13 year old middle schooler and living in Italy, we took a class trip to the local cinema for a morning screening of the movie "Christiane F." There were kids from other schools in the theater too.

After seeing that, none of us would ever even think of running away from home and doing hard drugs.

About a year later, we saw a special screening of "Taxi Driver" for the same reason. It was the first time I'd seen it.

After watching those movie we kids would discuss amongst ourselves the horror of what we just saw.
We were drawn to Christiane's and her boyfriend's characters (and Iris') because they were about our age.

That was the whole point why our teachers and principals wanted us to see those films.

It worked.

It would have been unthinkable for American schools to show their students movies like that.

They are ahead over there on these kinds of things.

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Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage

Posted by Easy on Tue Aug 23 20:20:23 2011, in response to Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage, posted by Amanda on Tue Aug 23 18:30:14 2011.

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Hopefully you mean that you gave the books to your nieces parents. I wouldn't want my kids reading that at 13.

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Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists

Posted by JayMan on Tue Aug 23 21:06:05 2011, in response to Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Aug 23 18:17:55 2011.

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How different is it from all the other things children are forced to read as part of the curriculum?

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Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists

Posted by Easy on Tue Aug 23 21:10:23 2011, in response to Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists, posted by JayMan on Tue Aug 23 18:06:41 2011.

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Get back to me when you have kids.

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Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists

Posted by JayMan on Tue Aug 23 21:32:14 2011, in response to Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists, posted by Easy on Tue Aug 23 21:10:23 2011.

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I want see Olog's answer to my question.

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Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists

Posted by streetcarman1 on Tue Aug 23 21:37:19 2011, in response to Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists, posted by JayMan on Tue Aug 23 21:32:14 2011.

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"I want see Olog's answer to my question."

He's "tongue-tied" at the moment :)



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Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage

Posted by AMoreira81 on Tue Aug 23 21:40:26 2011, in response to NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Aug 23 16:19:45 2011.

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To each its own...at least it's many parents who were outraged, unlike some cases where a jurisdiction overreacts on a handful of complaints.

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Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists

Posted by SUBwaySURF on Tue Aug 23 21:46:09 2011, in response to Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists, posted by JayMan on Tue Aug 23 21:32:14 2011.

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Don't hold your breath. You pwnt the silly trollog. He's trough with this thread. I promise... 8-)

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Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists

Posted by SUBwaySURF on Tue Aug 23 21:46:24 2011, in response to Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists, posted by JayMan on Tue Aug 23 21:32:14 2011.

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Don't hold your breath. You pwnt the silly trollog. He's through with this thread. I promise... 8-)

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Re: NJ Town PullsGay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists

Posted by SUBwaySURF on Tue Aug 23 21:49:15 2011, in response to Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists, posted by streetcarman1 on Tue Aug 23 21:37:19 2011.

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He's such a kinky,judgemental bible thumper. Is he not?

And such fun, too. 8-)

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Re: NJ Town PullsGay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists

Posted by streetcarman1 on Tue Aug 23 21:57:07 2011, in response to Re: NJ Town PullsGay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists, posted by SUBwaySURF on Tue Aug 23 21:49:15 2011.

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"He's such a kinky,judgemental bible thumper. Is he not?"

well....he uses bible passages as he would a dictionary....just a resource...I doubt he follows the bible to the extreme.


Yes...it's alot of fun pooking him in the side..... :)





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Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists

Posted by SUBwaySURF on Tue Aug 23 22:09:38 2011, in response to Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists, posted by Streetcarman1 on Tue Aug 23 18:07:34 2011.

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I'm ambidextrous.

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Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Aug 23 22:14:02 2011, in response to Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists, posted by Streetcarman1 on Tue Aug 23 18:07:34 2011.

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Both ... and he still can't maintain his grip.

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Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists

Posted by streetcarman1 on Tue Aug 23 22:18:52 2011, in response to Re: NJ Town Pulls *Graphic* Gay Sex Books From Summer Reading Lists, posted by SUBwaySURF on Tue Aug 23 22:09:38 2011.

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:)

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Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Aug 24 00:28:30 2011, in response to Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage, posted by Easy on Tue Aug 23 20:20:23 2011.

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Hopefully she doesn't mean that.

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Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage

Posted by Easy on Wed Aug 24 00:33:25 2011, in response to Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Aug 24 00:28:30 2011.

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Oops. I only just read the post that I responded to. I had read her initial post and responded to the one that I did by accident. She did run the books by the father first.

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Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage

Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Aug 24 00:50:59 2011, in response to Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage, posted by Easy on Wed Aug 24 00:33:25 2011.

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So what? How is it the same as having the state force kids to read these books? Never mind thinking that a child is somehow more "emotionally mature" than an adult?

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Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Aug 24 01:40:44 2011, in response to Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Aug 24 00:50:59 2011.

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The whole concept of school is forcing kids to read things they may not otherwise be willing to read.

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Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage

Posted by LuchAAA on Wed Aug 24 01:49:52 2011, in response to NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Aug 23 16:19:45 2011.

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The radicals have complete control of the education system in this country.

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(834209)

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Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage

Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Aug 24 01:52:16 2011, in response to Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Aug 24 01:49:52 2011.

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They'll end up dragging the whole country down with them.

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Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage

Posted by LuchAAA on Wed Aug 24 01:52:34 2011, in response to Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage, posted by Amanda on Tue Aug 23 17:19:58 2011.

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raw, painful

LOL.

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Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Aug 24 01:53:17 2011, in response to Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Aug 24 01:49:52 2011.

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No they don't. On the contrary many states education systems are controlled by reactionaries (Texas).

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Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage

Posted by LuchAAA on Wed Aug 24 01:53:53 2011, in response to Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage, posted by Amanda on Tue Aug 23 18:30:14 2011.

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it's raw,

Enough already. This is not that kind of message board.

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Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage

Posted by LuchAAA on Wed Aug 24 01:58:58 2011, in response to Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Aug 24 01:53:17 2011.

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No they don't. On the contrary many states education systems are controlled by reactionaries (Texas).

Texas will be the focus in the next election cycle I see.

The content of these books sounds a bit extreme for such young kids.

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Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Aug 24 01:59:47 2011, in response to Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Aug 24 01:58:58 2011.

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When I first saw the thread I figured they were complaining about a middle school reading list.

These are not "such young kids."

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Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage

Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Aug 24 02:05:39 2011, in response to Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Aug 24 01:52:34 2011.

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That was very Beavis & Butthead . . .

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Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage

Posted by EastSideRider on Wed Aug 24 02:08:51 2011, in response to Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage, posted by SMAZ on Tue Aug 23 18:50:16 2011.

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The same can be said about sex education. I started learning about sex around that age, and it informed me greatly and comes in handy.

Of course you have parents who don't want THAT taught to their kids either. So the streets end up teaching them sex and drugs...then they wonder why they go astray.

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Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage

Posted by LuchAAA on Wed Aug 24 02:13:42 2011, in response to Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage, posted by EastSideRider on Wed Aug 24 02:08:51 2011.

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Really? what do the streets teach about sex?

It's not natural to talk to your parents in detail about sex.

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Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Aug 24 02:14:20 2011, in response to Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Aug 24 02:13:42 2011.

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How is it not natural?

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Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage

Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Aug 24 02:14:35 2011, in response to Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Aug 24 01:58:58 2011.

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I take it you read the excerpt from "Tweak" that I posted?

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Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage

Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Aug 24 02:14:59 2011, in response to Re: NJ town pulls *graphic* gay sex books from *required* summer reading after parents' outrage, posted by EastSideRider on Wed Aug 24 02:08:51 2011.

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No, that's not how it happens.

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