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Re: Why Does Everything Suck? |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Apr 4 20:31:03 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Apr 4 20:22:42 2011. You're comparing apples and oranges.Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods are two of the best athletes who have lived in the last 50 years. Manning Marable is a first rate historian but not one of the greatest ever. If you want analogs of Jordan and Woods in the world of history and politics, you'd have to compare to Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela. And I think in 100 years they will be remembered better than Jordan and Woods. |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Apr 4 20:37:43 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by AlM on Mon Apr 4 20:31:03 2011. You're comparing apples and oranges.Not really. Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods are two of the best athletes who have lived in the last 50 years. Manning Marable is a first rate historian but not one of the greatest ever. And this is why I'm not "comparing apples and oranges" like you falsely claimed, even the greatest historian ever won't be remembered as much as Jordan or Woods. If you want analogs of Jordan and Woods in the world of history and politics, you'd have to compare to Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela. The Civil Rights movement is shell of its former self, it's pretty unlikely that anyone involved in the Civil Rights movement will have the same legacy as Mandela or King. And I think in 100 years they will be remembered better than Jordan and Woods. I disagree, Jackie Robinson & Martin Luther King, Jr. pretty much have the same recognition today as they did when they died. Most Americans are also into sports & will forever know Jordan & Woods as two of the greatest athletes. |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Apr 4 20:41:02 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 4 20:30:18 2011. It's not really a racial issue as it is a class issue. Rich kids can get a better education & will be more encouraged to do the hard work it requires to become a doctor. |
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Posted by Train Dude on Mon Apr 4 21:11:05 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by RockParkMan on Mon Apr 4 15:49:18 2011. He probably would even without the job |
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Posted by Fred G on Mon Apr 4 21:25:20 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 4 20:28:05 2011. You're more upset than Jayman was when he saw the video clip of black female jumping the counter in a bikini at Burger King.Not me, I caught wood. your pal, Fred |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 4 21:29:53 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by Fred G on Mon Apr 4 21:25:20 2011. She has a good body. She looked 10 years younger than she is, when in a bikini. |
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Posted by Fred G on Mon Apr 4 21:30:37 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by mcorivervsaf on Sun Apr 3 19:20:26 2011. Wise up.your pal, Fred |
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Posted by Fred G on Mon Apr 4 21:31:52 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 4 21:29:53 2011. Yep and she's ANIMAL so that beastfuck on the front hood of the Nova is a given.your pal, Fred |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Apr 4 21:48:04 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by Scrabbleship on Mon Apr 4 09:18:43 2011. The difference between an Oklahoman and a New Yorker pale compared to the differences between say a Tadjik and a Georgian or a Kazakh and an Estonian.The only States in the US where a secession would be culturally and historically sound would be Alaska and Hawaii and those places VOTED to accede to the Union. The former Soviet Republics voted to become independent. |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Apr 4 21:53:54 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Mon Apr 4 08:48:03 2011. and all the leaders of all major players were all related. |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Apr 4 21:56:14 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by AlM on Mon Apr 4 13:13:26 2011. Had the Germans not been so dumb as to have America against them, victory would have been possible with Russia having ended hostilities after the Revolution.Had Germany been smart they would have gotten America to side with THEM. |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 4 21:56:39 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by Scrabbleship on Mon Apr 4 09:18:43 2011. I meant more the US shattering into several smaller nations or even parts of the US seceding to other nationsAre you equating this to your psyche shattering into several smaller pieces that won't allow you to grasp reality . . . ? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 4 21:57:37 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by RockParkMan on Sun Apr 3 14:12:09 2011. Easy with the curses. They have a habit of rebounding, you know. Also pegs you as a true Nazi, BTW. |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 4 21:58:37 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by SUBWAYSURF on Mon Apr 4 04:19:44 2011. Yes, I see you chiming in.BTW, I'm still right and he's still waiting. |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Apr 4 22:04:16 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 4 14:25:01 2011. It was. Every country figured that they got a raw deal from the peace agreements (including some of the victors).Also add the Red Scare that made the rich, the petty bourgeois, many WWI veterans (who were mad period) along with a whole lot of low-class thugs side with Nazi-Fascists in countries all over Europe and you had the makings of a terrible redux. |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Apr 4 22:10:53 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by Fred G on Mon Apr 4 11:39:08 2011. and the clothes!Ughhh...the CLOTHES!!! |
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Posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 4 22:26:28 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by Scrabbleship on Mon Apr 4 14:49:39 2011. No one knows what will happen in 1000 years. We may no longer be organic beings by then. Needless to say, I'm pretty certain the idea of governments and nation-states as we know them will long be obsolete by then. |
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Posted by Fred G on Mon Apr 4 22:31:53 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by SMAZ on Mon Apr 4 22:10:53 2011. LOL your pal, Fred |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Apr 4 22:40:38 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Apr 4 20:37:43 2011. I disagree, Jackie Robinson & Martin Luther King, Jr. pretty much have the same recognition today as they did when they died.That's because Robinson was much more than just an athlete. There may have not have even been an MLK, a Rosa Parks or a Thurgood Marshall without Jackie Robinson. The self-absorbed and for-hire lives of Jordan and Woods are shit compared to the selfless achievements, influence and respect that JR brought upon himself, his race and his country. |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Apr 4 22:45:54 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Mon Apr 4 20:10:35 2011. For every black idiot that you may see there are 10 more who quietly and without bringing attention to themselves continue to push this country forward.They are everywhere. In the workplaces, the universities, the military, the arts, the sciences, in government and in the corporate world making this nation and their families better. |
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Posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 4 22:46:33 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Mon Apr 4 20:10:35 2011. Why do these young black males continue to embrace the gang banging/thug stuff,Ever notice how similar urban street gangs are to bands of hunter-gatherer tribes? Blacks (and by extension Latinos, who descend from blacks and Native Americans) are less removed evolutionarily from their hunter-gatherer ancestors than whites, and as such the traits that help one to function in civilized society are much less prevalent. maybe young blacks would look up to the man and see that its possible to be successful in life and not be a rapper or a Athlete, but nooo, its the same old fucking shit. As we would expect, unfortunately. Genes do not change overnight. As well, American blacks (descended primarily from West Africans) have an edge in size, muscularity and strength; blacks also have a talent for on-the-fly creativity. These abilities lend themselves well to sports and music. In NYC, these hood kids aren't that poor as you think they are, most of em have Cable, Computer, cell phones, game systems, brand name clothing etc, yet they continue to run their lifes into the ground. This is the last real issue holding back blacks, I'm so sick of this ghetto/hood mentality, we can't we just all get along and eat pork chops and kool aid? Damn. Its so frustrating man, why do young blacks have to act like this? why? There we see the consistency of genetics. |
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Posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 4 22:54:28 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 4 20:28:05 2011. >>>>Why do these young black males continue to embrace the gang banging/thug stuff,Same reasons Italian kids embraced the guido/mobster stuff. To a extent, but the causes are not all the same. It's all lowest common denominator and it's hard to fail at these lifestyles. It's actually very easy to fail as a thug; and the costs of doing so are more severe: death or imprisonment. Obama becoming President has not improved anything. Tell that to all the newly hired and all the people soon to have healthcare. But a black president, especially one that is nothing like the typical black American (of mixed East African and white descent and highly intelligent), has done nothing to change the root causes of the gang problem. Nor can he. >>>Damn. Its so frustrating man, why do young blacks have to act like this? why? Calm down. You're more upset than Jayman was when he saw the video clip of black female jumping the counter in a bikini at Burger King. LOL! I wasn't upset. But it is always disappointing to see someone live up to the stereotype, even though there wouldn't be a stereotype if people didn't conform to it a lot of the time. |
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Posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 4 23:01:21 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Apr 4 20:41:02 2011. It is a race issue. Rich kids get better educations not only because they are rich but because they are smart and tend to benefit from that education. Blacks are not so well endowed: 84% of American blacks are below the white mean IQ. By contrast so many doctors are Jews because nearly 80% of them are above the white mean IQ.Class—especially today when so many artificial barriers have been removed (e.g. segregation)—is due in part to genetics. People of higher social classes have higher average IQ's and an assortment of other traits that are less common in those in the lower classes. |
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Posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 4 23:06:34 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by SMAZ on Mon Apr 4 22:45:54 2011. For every black idiot that you may see there are 10 more who quietly and without bringing attention to themselves continue to push this country forward.84% of blacks below the white mean IQ? Unfortunately that ratio of yours is not the case. The 16% of blacks above the white mean IQ contains many of the individuals that are the most visible in helping move the country and their societies forward. |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 4 23:09:10 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 4 23:01:21 2011. Blacks are not so well endowed:WTF! By contrast so many doctors are Jews because nearly 80% of them are above the white mean IQ. Well, in the NY area and many parts of the northeast, that's kind of true. But Jews are such a big percentage of the population in the NY area, so it makes sense. It's not as true in other areas. And I'll bet that the percentage of Jews enrolled in medical school today is much lower than it was forty years ago. They are being replaced by Indians and Orientals. |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Apr 4 23:11:21 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 4 22:46:33 2011. Blacks (and by extension Latinos, who descend from blacks and Native Americans) are less removed evolutionarily from their hunter-gatherer ancestors than whites, and as such the traits that help one to function in civilized society are much less prevalent.Proof? Hispanics are a mix of black, Native American, and white. |
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Posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 4 23:13:00 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 4 23:09:10 2011. >>>>Blacks are not so well endowed:WTF! Haha mentally. Blacks are plenty endowed in other areas... >>>>By contrast so many doctors are Jews because nearly 80% of them are above the white mean IQ. Well, in the NY area and many parts of the northeast, that's kind of true. But Jews are such a big percentage of the population in the NY area, so it makes sense. It's not as true in other areas. As long as we're talking about Ashkenazi Jews, then that's true no matter where they are, provided there hasn't been some sort of selection one way or the other. The mean Ashkenazi IQ is ~113, which means about 80% will have an IQ over 100 (the mean IQ of whites). |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Apr 4 23:14:50 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 4 23:01:21 2011. It is a race issue. Rich kids get better educations not only because they are rich but because they are smart and tend to benefit from that education. Blacks are not so well endowed: 84% of American blacks are below the white mean IQ. By contrast so many doctors are Jews because nearly 80% of them are above the white mean IQ.How much of the upper class is black? There are plenty of economically & educationally deprived white people who also face the same disadvantages poor black youth face, but I guess they're dwarfed by the more affluent whites. |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Apr 4 23:19:06 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by SMAZ on Mon Apr 4 22:40:38 2011. I think that players on Robinson's scale will only come once in a eternity. Bill Russell & Little Richard also helped integrate the basketball & music worlds respectively, except I doubt that either will still be remembered more than Jordan or Woods unfortunately. Besides, I don't know much about golf, but isn't Woods somewhat of the Jackie Robinson of golf? |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 4 23:20:21 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 4 22:54:28 2011. It's actually very easy to fail as a thug; and the costs of doing so are more severe: death or imprisonment.Actually, death or imprisonment is a badge of honor for many. Tell that to all the newly hired and all the people soon to have healthcare. But a black president, especially one that is nothing like the typical black American (of mixed East African and white descent and highly intelligent), has done nothing to change the root causes of the gang problem. Nor can he. I meant he hasn't really improved things for black people. Certainly not to the extent many in the black community expected him to. A common complaint is that "he's not doing enough for black people". In addition to being East African, he has strong Muslim roots, and most likely identified as a "Muslim" as a child, yet American looked past all that when he won the election. |
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Posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 4 23:21:47 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Apr 4 23:11:21 2011. I didn't say Latinos were descended only from blacks and Native Americans (although some, known as Zambos south of the border are descended mostly from those groups), I meant that their heritage is heavily derived from those groups.Africa south of the Sahara has had civilization a lot less longer than has Europe or Asia (with the exception of Ethiopia). Up until very recently most Africans lived as hunter-gatherers. The same is true of most Native Americans save for the ones that lived in Meso-America. Life in a hunter-gatherer society requires a whole different set of traits than does life in a civilized society. |
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Posted by Easy on Mon Apr 4 23:26:04 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 4 22:46:33 2011. American blacks (descended primarily from West Africans) have an edge in sizeThis is at least the second time that you have said this and it's not true if you mean compared to whites. |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Apr 4 23:26:18 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by SMAZ on Mon Apr 4 22:45:54 2011. A lot of black people don't really see the big picture & think they're going to die young. A lot of young black people just care about trivial stuff like looking cool with that fact in mind, and become losers after their mid-20s. |
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Posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 4 23:29:41 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Apr 4 23:14:50 2011. This is (in part) a consequence of the nature of bell curves: Notice the 100 line. Notice what percentage of each curve is to the right or left of that line. White people are better off (relatively) compared to blacks mainly because there is a lower percentage of whites left of 100. Even though the absolute number of poor whites is greater than the number of poor blacks, the poverty rates differ in large part due to a difference in cognitive ability. |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Apr 4 23:37:52 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 4 23:21:47 2011. Africa south of the Sahara has had civilization a lot less longer than has Europe or Asia (with the exception of Ethiopia). Up until very recently most Africans lived as hunter-gatherers. The same is true of most Native Americans save for the ones that lived in Meso-America. Life in a hunter-gatherer society requires a whole different set of traits than does life in a civilized society.That sounds pretty Euro-centrist. IINM Sub-Saharan Africa was uncivilized, but Northern African was civilized in a way Europeans didn't understand & wanted to change. Northern Africans were building pyramids, planting crops, and practicing Christianity before Europeans arrived there. Plus, black people have had generations to "adjust" to European-style civilization, if your post is true then why are their genes slow to "adapt"? |
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Posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 4 23:40:15 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Apr 4 23:26:18 2011. Blacks also appear to have a shorter time horizon than whites or E. Asians; they literally less able to project in the future. In a continent riddled with insect-borne diseases and tribal warfare, it didn't really make much sense to plan too far ahead, because you stood a good chance of not living to see it. Acquiring short-term goals and emblems of high status (exchange gold chains and jewelery for tribal ornaments), with the goal of having more opportunities for sex with as many partners as possible was a better bet. |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Apr 4 23:40:31 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 4 23:29:41 2011. I don't get it, if poor whites are smarter than their black counterparts, are schools in poor neighborhoods catering to whites? Are schools in poor white neighborhood better than schools in poor black neighborhoods? |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Apr 4 23:42:01 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Apr 4 23:40:31 2011. Pressed to "post" button too early by a mistake, but I wanted to add that I find it hard to believe that poor whites are smarter from birth than poor blacks simply because of their race. |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 4 23:42:49 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 4 23:40:15 2011. Acquiring short-term goals and emblems of high status (exchange gold chains and jewelery for tribal ornaments)bling-bling? |
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Posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 4 23:52:04 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Apr 4 23:37:52 2011. First of all North Africans are not black. They are brown, genetically distinct from black Africans to the south, and related to, but still distinct from white Europeans to the north. Brown people (North Africans/Middle Easterners/South Asians) did indeed develop agriculture first, and no doubt this created an evolutionary pressure that probably led to the origin of civilization. Once the Greeks and Romans spread civilization into Europe, it didn't take long to catch on there. By contrast very few sub-Saharan African societies developed civilization, and while there were a few singular successes and inventions (such as the Haya from Tanzania who invented steel, the West African empires there were at the time the strongest states in the West, and Ethiopia), the record of accomplishments is a lot shorter. Several forces, including cognitive and temperamental factors probably explain this, but the result today is clear.Plus, black people have had generations to "adjust" to European-style civilization, if your post is true then why are their genes slow to "adapt"? Some adaptation no doubt has occurred. But evolution doesn't proceed that quickly, and further, there is no selective pressure favoring increased intelligence/a more pro-civilized temperament today. It's not like the successful blacks reproduce more than the less successful ones. If anything it may be the other way around. |
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Posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 4 23:56:14 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 4 23:42:49 2011. Bling-bling indeed: |
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Posted by Train Dude on Mon Apr 4 23:58:59 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Apr 4 23:42:01 2011. Similar theories proposed by Professor William Shockley were largely discredited years ago. You can Google his "studies" on race and intelligence. Draw your own conclusions |
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Posted by JayMan on Tue Apr 5 00:04:50 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 4 23:20:21 2011. >>>>>It's actually very easy to fail as a thug; and the costs of doing so are more severe: death or imprisonment.Actually, death or imprisonment is a badge of honor for many. It's still a failure at the job requirements of a thug. I meant he hasn't really improved things for black people. Certainly not to the extent many in the black community expected him to. A common complaint is that "he's not doing enough for black people". He can't make black people smarter..... |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Apr 5 00:05:23 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 4 23:52:04 2011. First of all North Africans are not black. They are brown, genetically distinct from black Africans to the south, and related to, but still distinct from white Europeans to the north. Brown people (North Africans/Middle Easterners/South Asians) did indeed develop agriculture first, and no doubt this created an evolutionary pressure that probably led to the origin of civilization. Once the Greeks and Romans spread civilization into Europe, it didn't take long to catch on there. By contrast very few sub-Saharan African societies developed civilization, and while there were a few singular successes and inventions (such as the Haya from Tanzania who invented steel, the West African empires there were at the time the strongest states in the West, and Ethiopia), the record of accomplishments is a lot shorter. Several forces, including cognitive and temperamental factors probably explain this, but the result today is clear.IINM, there were also predominately black West African cities that were civilized (as you mentioned) in their own way before Europeans set foot on Africa, like Timbuktu. Some adaptation no doubt has occurred. But evolution doesn't proceed that quickly, and further, there is no selective pressure favoring increased intelligence/a more pro-civilized temperament today. It's not like the successful blacks reproduce more than the less successful ones. If anything it may be the other way around. So it's an education issue at heart. |
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Posted by JayMan on Tue Apr 5 00:08:22 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by Train Dude on Mon Apr 4 23:58:59 2011. Actually (and if you've bothered to read the evidence I posted, you'd know this), evidence is pretty solid about race differences in intelligence, and no one disputes the phenotypical difference in intelligence between the races. What is of dispute is whether this is genotypical—whether this is due to heredity, and the evidence lines up pretty well that it is. |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Apr 5 00:12:34 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by Train Dude on Mon Apr 4 23:58:59 2011. I don't blame them, I don't remember my exact I.Q. but it was surely between 105 & 115. How is that possible according to that theory? |
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Posted by JayMan on Tue Apr 5 00:17:23 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Apr 5 00:05:23 2011. IINM, there were also predominately black West African cities that were civilized (as you mentioned) in their own way before Europeans set foot on Africa, like Timbuktu.They were, and for a time they were more organized than the European civilizations. But with perhaps the exception of Zimbabwe and a few other societies in West and Southern Africa, all the black African civilizations developed with contact from the outside—via the Arabs and the brown people of the Ghana Empire in the case of the West African Empires and via Egypt and Yemen (i.e., brown countries) in the case of Ethiopia. >>>But evolution doesn't proceed that quickly, and further, there is no selective pressure favoring increased intelligence/a more pro-civilized temperament today. It's not like the successful blacks reproduce more than the less successful ones. If anything it may be the other way around. So it's an education issue at heart. I wouldn't say its an education issue—it's a breeding issue. In all races higher IQ individuals reproduce less (thanks today mostly to birth control). This is actually causing us to get dumber with time. Reversing that trend would require successful people to alter their behavior when it comes to having families, and I'm not sure how you can do that. |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Apr 5 00:18:26 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 4 23:40:15 2011. Great, eye-opening post, I never noticed the similarities between the two. |
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Posted by JayMan on Tue Apr 5 00:21:11 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Apr 5 00:12:34 2011. It's perfectly possible. There are plenty of smart blacks. It's a bell curve. The mean black American IQ is 85, and the standard deviation is 15, which means your IQ, (say it's 115) is two standard deviations above the black mean. The percentage of blacks at your IQ is the same as the percentage of whites with an IQ of 130. |
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Re: Why Does Everything Suck? |
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Posted by Train Dude on Tue Apr 5 00:22:21 2011, in response to Re: Why Does Everything Suck?, posted by JayMan on Tue Apr 5 00:08:22 2011. What are you trying to say? Let's sum it up. |
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