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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Fri Apr 18 08:43:55 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Apr 17 19:45:10 2014. Coming from you, that's a hoot.It's also a variant of the Courtier's Reply. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Fri Apr 18 08:46:09 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Apr 17 17:28:56 2014. More anecdotes.The idea that you, personally are not mistreated doesn't mean much, and the claim that it's because you're not "suspicious" betrays a certain level of ignorance— remember, you're talking to someone who is no more suspicious than you are, but has been harassed by the security state anyway. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Fri Apr 18 08:50:19 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Apr 17 17:23:01 2014. This post certainly doesn't give much credence to that statement.That post contains precisely no calls for Israel's destruction— unless you consider Israel to be "destroyed" if it is no longer adequately populated by the "correct" race. Then why don't you speak out it as vehemently as you speak out against Israeli policies vis a vis Gaza? Were we having a conversation about that, I would. You're reminding me of this one guy who smugly declared I couldn't really be a railfan if I didn't know about the Shinkansen— and I clearly didn't, because I hadn't brought it up, apropos of nothing, in a conversation about the MBTA. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Fri Apr 18 08:54:29 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Apr 17 20:18:58 2014. It would also be a problem if I sold dead babies, but no one's claiming I did that either. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Apr 18 11:04:51 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Fri Apr 18 08:46:09 2014. What security state? Israel?I have far more anecdotes than anyone else here, and no selective Googling on your part will change that. The only people here who think they know more about life in Israel than I do are generally considered to be crazy. You aren't going to find many people who are going to take anything you post about this topic over my word without some very convincing facts to back up your side. I suggest giving up already. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Apr 18 11:10:44 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Fri Apr 18 08:50:19 2014. Just keep talking, because all you're doing is showing through each post how ignorant you are of the situation at hand.Jews aren't a race. Israel was created to be a democratic, Jewish state. If a majority of the population is not Jewish, then non-democratic means would need to be used to maintain its Jewish character. I'm assuming you are also opposed to that option. When you create a ridiculous double-standard for Israel that makes it impossible for the country to serve its primary purpose for existing without you calling it out for not fitting within your worldview, you are effectively proposing its destruction. If you are so concerned about the plight of the Gazans, why are you only concerned with Israel's blockade? You brought up Gaza, so either stand by your supposed convictions about inhumane blockades and restrictions on free trade and movement or shut up already. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Fri Apr 18 12:29:24 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Apr 18 11:10:44 2014. "Israel was created to be a democratic, Jewish state."Actually, the thought was that Israel would be a Socialist state. That was one of the reasons why the USSR voted for partition - they thought they would get a foothold in the Middle East. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Apr 18 12:32:35 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Mitch45 on Fri Apr 18 12:29:24 2014. Right, but whether socialist or democratic, it would be a JEWISH state. That is what Nilet wants to change. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Apr 18 12:35:35 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Mitch45 on Fri Apr 18 12:29:24 2014. Actually, the thought was that Israel would be a Socialist stateWhose thought was that? Socialism pushes out religion and is particularly antisemitic. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Apr 18 12:39:59 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Mitch45 on Fri Apr 18 12:29:24 2014. It was intended to be a democratic, socialist state. At the time, the two concepts were not thought to be mutually exclusive. When they came to be, Israel chose democracy. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Apr 18 13:30:29 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Apr 18 12:39:59 2014. You are for socialism? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Apr 18 13:32:36 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Apr 18 13:30:29 2014. Why would you make that assumption? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Apr 18 13:33:33 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Apr 18 13:32:36 2014. I'm just wondering. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Apr 18 13:35:38 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Apr 18 13:33:33 2014. No. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by DANd124 on Fri Apr 18 13:37:28 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Apr 18 13:30:29 2014. you are. or have you given up your pension. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Apr 18 19:23:53 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Fri Apr 18 08:43:55 2014. Answer the question. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Sat Apr 19 16:07:52 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Apr 18 11:04:51 2014. I have far more anecdotes than anyone else here...Pity the plural of "anecdote" is not "data." You aren't going to find many people who are going to take anything you post about this topic over my word... And you are...? I don't think all that many people on OTChat are going to take my word if I had twelve scientific studies, six hours of video evidence, and a certificate from God himself; they've shown their ideological commitment to the idea that I'm wrong regardless of the facts on multiple occasions. Although you really are a pompous windbag, aren't you? That anybody calls me a "know-it-all" after this little rant is the height of irony. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Sat Apr 19 16:25:14 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Apr 18 11:10:44 2014. Jews aren't a race.I figured you'd try to play this shell game. Jews are a race when it's convenient and a religion when that's convenient. So be specific, then, in your exact definition of what defines the Jewish demographic. Israel was created to be a democratic, Jewish state. If a majority of the population is not Jewish, then non-democratic means would need to be used to maintain its Jewish character. I'm assuming you are also opposed to that option. See, your problem here is your assumption that Israel must be a Jewish state above all else. Unless you're proposing that Judaism is the Master Race™/Religion®/Demographicetc then you have no basis for this. When you create a ridiculous double-standard for Israel that makes it impossible for the country to serve its primary purpose for existing without you calling it out for not fitting within your worldview, you are effectively proposing its destruction. "Ridiculous double standard?" You're the one claiming that one country should have an absolute right to suspend the rights of its residents to maintain what you deem the "proper" ethnic/religious demographics. You'd probably be the first person to throw a fit if a country declared that its Jewish population must not be declared full citizens to maintain its "character" as a nation of another religious/ethnic group. If you are so concerned about the plight of the Gazans, why are you only concerned with Israel's blockade? Israel is occupying the territory and treating it as under their jurisdiction, but not treating its residents as Israelis. You can't have it both ways. Either treat the Gazans as full Israeli citizens or stop occupying it. If any other country occupies a territory and treats it as under their control without giving rights to its residents, that's also wrong. You brought up Gaza, so either stand by your supposed convictions about inhumane blockades and restrictions on free trade and movement or shut up already. What are you talking about? I believe the right to travel is absolute and I've stood by that all this time. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Sat Apr 19 16:25:16 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Apr 18 12:32:35 2014. I don't want to change it; I'm opposed to using legal and political shenanigans to try and enforce the "proper" demographics for a country.You're the one claiming people need to be deprived of their rights in order to maintain the ethnic and religious "character" of a particular country. So what do you think of Saudi Arabia's persecution of non-Muslims? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by DAnD124 on Sat Apr 19 16:29:58 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Sat Apr 19 16:25:14 2014. Israel is occupying the territory and treating it as under their jurisdiction, but not treating its residents as Israelis. You can't have it both ways. Either treat the Gazans as full Israeli citizens or stop occupying it.when the United States occupied Germany and Japan Germans and Japanese were not granted us citizenship. are you claim they should have been? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Apr 19 16:41:29 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by DAnD124 on Sat Apr 19 16:29:58 2014. Your analogy breaks down because Israel has occupied the West Bank much longer than the US occupied Japan and Germany. That doesn't make Nilet right; it just makes your analogy less useful in arguing with him. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by DAnD124 on Sat Apr 19 16:44:43 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by AlM on Sat Apr 19 16:41:29 2014. how long has Israel occupied Gaza for? didn't the pull out for a while? the US occupied a portion of Berlin for 45 years and those resident were never granted citizenship. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Sat Apr 19 16:52:46 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Apr 18 19:23:53 2014. Explain how the question is apropos.Otherwise, I'll be forced to quiz you on a bunch of irrelevant factoids and then claim your opinions are ignorant for not knowing them. As opposed to, you know, because they're simply irrational. Have you looked up "Courtier's Reply" yet? It's very relevant to this discussion— to put it in your terms, it's a piece of context you really need to have. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Sat Apr 19 18:27:50 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by DAnD124 on Sat Apr 19 16:29:58 2014. When a nation has formally declared war on you, it is generally accepted that you may occupy it during the conduct of the formally declared war and for a short duration afterwards.The US withdrew from Germany and Japan quickly. The Soviet Union didn't, but they should have. |
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Posted by DAnD124 on Sat Apr 19 18:29:15 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Sat Apr 19 18:27:50 2014. Jordan and Egypt declared war on Israel. |
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Posted by Nilet on Sat Apr 19 18:57:58 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by DAnD124 on Sat Apr 19 18:29:15 2014. When? I don't see a lot of war happening between them. |
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Posted by DAnD124 on Sat Apr 19 19:00:54 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Sat Apr 19 18:57:58 2014. 1967 and again in 1973 |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Sat Apr 19 19:07:54 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by DAnD124 on Sat Apr 19 19:00:54 2014. A war in 1973 does not give you leave to occupy that country 40 years later. |
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Posted by DAnD124 on Sat Apr 19 19:12:15 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Sat Apr 19 19:07:54 2014. 1) the Allied powers occupied berlin until 1990 and no one thought it was a problem.2) Israel withdrew from gaza in 2006 |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Sat Apr 19 19:14:06 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by DAnD124 on Sat Apr 19 19:12:15 2014. 1) the Allied powers occupied berlin until 1990 and no one thought it was a problem.Oh? I thought they'd all withdrawn long before then except the Soviets. 2) Israel withdrew from gaza in 2006 Then why are they still there? |
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Posted by Gamera on Sat Apr 19 19:34:03 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Sat Apr 19 19:14:06 2014. Then why are they still there?They aren't Israel just responds when the Hamas Controlled Government of Gaza shoots missiles into Israel |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Apr 20 10:40:50 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Sat Apr 19 16:52:46 2014. If the history of Israel begins in 1967 as you claim, you have no understanding of what is going on in the Middle East today. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Apr 20 10:46:10 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Sat Apr 19 16:07:52 2014. No one is going to take you at your word because of your history here. You dug that hole for yourself. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Apr 20 10:48:53 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Sat Apr 19 19:14:06 2014. There are no Israeli troops or citizens in Gaza.Your ignorance of the topic at hand is astounding. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Apr 20 10:51:41 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Sat Apr 19 19:07:54 2014. Palestine isn't a country. Neither is Gaza. Neither Egypt nor Jordan makes any territorial claim to Gaza or the West Bank respectively. Therefore, what entity is Israel occupying? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Apr 20 11:00:19 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Sat Apr 19 16:25:14 2014. Judaism is a religion. Israelis are a nationality, the overwhelming majority of whom are Jewish. There are lots of states throughout the world where one religion's adherents make up the majority of the population. Why can't there be a state where Judaism is the religion of the majority?I have said time and time again on this board and in this thread somewhere that a Palestinian state needs to be created to ensure Israel remains Jewish and democratic. Most Israelis agree with me. Sorry if you don't like it, but you have also proven time and time again that your views are far from mainstream and you lack a sound understanding of many of the arguments you try to make. As I asked you elsewhere in this thread, exactly what country is Israel occupying? Palestine has never been established as a country. Egypt makes no claim to Gaza and Jordan makes no claim to the West Bank. If you want to call them Disputed Territories, I'm quite OK with that, but Israel isn't occupying anything. Gazans have no desire to be Israeli citizens, so that isn't an option. Also, citizens of a country generally don't set out to destroy their own country. If you believe the right to travel is absolute, then you would demand that BOTH Egypt AND Israel lift their blockades on Gaza. You've put the onus on Israel. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Apr 20 11:01:47 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Sat Apr 19 16:25:16 2014. You might say you don't want to change it, but your proposals effectively would. |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sun Apr 20 11:32:31 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Apr 20 10:46:10 2014. That's what he doesn't seem to understand. Because he has come off here as an arrogant prick.....he could argue the sky is blue at this point and no one wold listen. Its the atmosphere he has dug and created for himself. |
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Posted by Dave on Sun Apr 20 11:59:21 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Sat Apr 19 19:14:06 2014. 1) the Allied powers occupied berlin until 1990 and no one thought it was a problem.Oh? I thought they'd all withdrawn long before then except the Soviets. Germany remained under nominal military occupation until March 15, 1991, when the final ratification of the "Treaty on the Final Settlement With Respect to Germany" (signed on 12 September 1990) was lodged with the German Government. This, as the final peace treaty signed by the four powers and the two German governments, formally restored full sovereignty to a reunified Germany. What you don't know, Nilet, would fill volumes. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Sun Apr 20 12:15:33 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Apr 20 10:48:53 2014. Perhaps Nilet confused Gaza with Tel Aviv. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Apr 20 13:33:32 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Sat Apr 19 16:52:46 2014. What WMATA said. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Sun Apr 20 14:42:29 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Apr 20 13:33:32 2014. Look who parachuted in. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Apr 20 14:48:12 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Mitch45 on Sun Apr 20 14:42:29 2014. Why would you say that? Because you're wrong. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 20 20:31:56 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Apr 20 11:00:19 2014. He's a Southern Syria revanchist, it seems. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Apr 20 22:07:22 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 20 20:31:56 2014. YES! That's what "Palestinians" are. |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Mon Apr 21 08:31:48 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 17:49:34 2014. http://www.idfblog.com/2014/04/21/gaza-terrorists-attack-israel-passover-holiday/ |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon May 5 15:45:55 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Dave on Sun Apr 20 11:59:21 2014. How nominal is nominal?In any case, it shouldn't have happened. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon May 5 15:46:27 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Gamera on Sat Apr 19 19:34:03 2014. Yuh huh. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon May 5 15:47:22 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Apr 20 10:48:53 2014. There are no Israeli troops or citizens in Gaza.What, so Gaza is not part of Israel? In that case, why are they trying to control it? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon May 5 16:05:19 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Apr 20 10:40:50 2014. Since when have I claimed the history of Israel begins in 1967? You seriously need to stop making ridiculous assumptions. |
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