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| Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? (748471) | |
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| (748882) | |
Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by WillD on Wed Feb 25 19:09:31 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Feb 25 18:37:08 2009. Power comes from ConEd or LIPA at 13.2kv to 70kv and 60hz. In the old substations central switching station converts that power into 11kv 25hz, while a more modern system simply steps it down, then switches the 13.2kv 60hz power for distribution to substations. The power then travels through an 11kv or 13.2kv bus to breakers that control the distribution to the subsidiary substations below the central switching stations. From the breaker the power travels down the wires next to the ROW to the other nearby substations. In each substation those AC wires feed the rectifiers which turn out DC power, and that goes through more switch gear before going to the direct third rail feeder.If you wish to remove the wires parallel to the right of way then you must remove the central AC switching station and distribute that AC feed and switch gear to every single substation. |
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| (748890) | |
Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Feb 25 19:16:04 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Feb 25 14:17:33 2009. That's not what he asked you. |
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Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Feb 25 19:37:49 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Feb 25 14:19:16 2009. I see. I thought the DE/DM's had seperate HEP. |
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Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Feb 25 19:39:19 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by R30A on Wed Feb 25 15:11:20 2009. If you can wedge a 2-track terminal station near the current one in Patchouge, then ending electrification there is fine by me. |
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Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Feb 25 19:41:04 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by WillD on Wed Feb 25 13:38:57 2009. True, but said new cars could run anywhere, and the old cars could run in newly electrified sections. That allows for maximum flexibility. |
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Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Feb 25 19:42:09 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Feb 25 19:37:49 2009. no the HEP comes of 3000 hp 12/710 main engine. |
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| (748905) | |
Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Feb 25 19:42:25 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Feb 25 14:34:11 2009. But are they as reliable as the staight diesel P40's? |
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| (748907) | |
Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Feb 25 19:42:59 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Feb 25 19:42:09 2009. I learned something today ... |
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| (748908) | |
Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Feb 25 19:45:13 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Feb 25 19:42:25 2009. Much more reliable, The AC propulsion has very little maintenance, specialy compared to a P40. |
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| (748911) | |
Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Wed Feb 25 19:55:09 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by WillD on Wed Feb 25 19:09:31 2009. You can also bury the lineside power lines underground. While more costly than having them above ground, it's been done. |
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| (748913) | |
Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Feb 25 20:03:19 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Feb 25 19:45:13 2009. Then LIRR should have bought them instead of the DE/EM's, at least when looking in hindsight. |
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| (748915) | |
Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by WillD on Wed Feb 25 20:13:59 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Feb 25 19:45:13 2009. Much more reliable, The AC propulsion has very little maintenance, specialy compared to a P40.Wait is that compared to the P40 in MN/ConnDOT service or the P40 in Amtrak service? Cause last time I talked to some friends at Amtrak in Philly they had a good laugh at the idea of the P40 getting below a 20k MDBF in MN service. According to them Amtrak managed better than 50k with them in service, and the P42s do even better. |
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| (748918) | |
Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by WillD on Wed Feb 25 20:17:24 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by Wado MP73 on Wed Feb 25 19:55:09 2009. You can also bury the lineside power lines underground. While more costly than having them above ground, it's been done.Of course, and as you say that'll increase the cost relative to catenary, perhaps to the point where cat is half the cost to install the third rail. Not only would that installation cost more, but the maitenance would become that much more difficult and expensive. |
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| (748919) | |
Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by WillD on Wed Feb 25 20:20:26 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Feb 25 19:41:04 2009. It allows for a transitory period of better flexibility relative to AC electrification at an expense far greater than the catenary alternative. Once the M3s are replaced by AC/DC EMUs and the M7s have perhaps been converted into AC/DC triplets the fleet is every bit as flexible as a full DC electrification for a fraction the cost. |
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| (748926) | |
Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Wed Feb 25 20:51:48 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by WillD on Wed Feb 25 12:20:39 2009. Those are married pairs acting as a unit; my understanding - which is probably incomplete - is that this would be a concern in non-permanently mated pairs.But perhaps this concern could be easily enough obviated by permanent linkage into a triple: M7-M10-M7, etc. |
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| (748928) | |
Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Wed Feb 25 20:56:56 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Feb 25 12:27:32 2009. That's still considerably less HP than the DE/DM. It's good for 3 car shuttles, max.Negative. DE/DM30 draws HEP off the driving HP. So you're only talking about a small HP difference ultimately, especially when you're talking about a longer train. The concern with BL20s would be that the HEP they're using now couldn't support longer trains, though, without upping the HEP. But perhaps that can be done? |
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| (748931) | |
Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Feb 25 21:18:06 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by WillD on Wed Feb 25 20:13:59 2009. stop and go traffic is lots harder on Engine than pulling Auto train and near continouos speed from Virginia to Florida. |
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| (748932) | |
Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Feb 25 21:19:16 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by trainsarefun on Wed Feb 25 20:51:48 2009. whats an M10 ?? |
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| (748934) | |
Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Wed Feb 25 21:32:35 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by Osmosis Jones on Wed Feb 25 13:01:45 2009. West Hempstead Branch is good at what it does - provide service for those who live within walking distance.The problem with Oyster Bay Branch is that its not suited to diesel operations, but that's what they've got. There are plenty of 'refugees', so to speak, who defect to the Port Washington Branch or Main Line. Oyster Bay-NYP running time is about 80 minutes, with approximately half of that time spent on the Oyster Bay Branch. |
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| (748935) | |
Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Feb 25 21:34:23 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by WillD on Wed Feb 25 19:09:31 2009. Yes. I think that is what I said.ROAR |
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| (748939) | |
Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Feb 25 21:42:21 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Feb 25 19:39:19 2009. LION would end the electric line at Patchouge, but but would build the yards in Sayville. It is only a short ride from here to there for trains to go into service at the Patch.ROAR |
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| (748948) | |
Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Wed Feb 25 22:23:51 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by Osmosis Jones on Wed Feb 25 14:12:52 2009. No way, if the Montauk is 114 miles long then how does the LIRR expect the locomotives to always make the run?Can't count on always! Also, the MDBF numbers don't tell us how serious a failure was involved - was it just something that was a delay, e.g., stuck door until it was cut out, or something that resulted in significantly delayed or even canceled train. I don't know what it means, but I haven't heard of as much trouble with the LIRR diesels for about the last 6 months, so maybe the stats will improve. I think that they are moving forward with a long overdue upgrade of Morris Park, which should help too. |
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| (748950) | |
Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Wed Feb 25 22:26:57 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Feb 25 21:19:16 2009. A few posts back a poster had a fantasy idea about a catenary powered EMU that would run in between 2 M7s powering them off the wire in LIRR territory. I cavalierly called it M10, which has nothing to do with anything in the works in the actual world. Might as well call it M10* since it's quite likely not going to happen based on clearances alone, i.e., no service to ESA or FBA even with pants locked down. |
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| (749112) | |
Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Thu Feb 26 11:02:56 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by WillD on Wed Feb 25 20:17:24 2009. Yeah, but that would make the "I don't want no stinking lines in my view" people shut up. |
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| (749197) | |
Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Feb 26 12:43:05 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by trainsarefun on Wed Feb 25 21:32:35 2009. I think a case could be made for partial electrification of the OBL. Roslyn is a fairly densly populated area. Once you get north of there the area becomes more affluent and less densely populated. I'm sure these areas would resist electrification, after seeing what it did to areas along the Ronkonkoma line. |
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| (749279) | |
Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Thu Feb 26 16:00:04 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by trainsarefun on Wed Feb 25 21:32:35 2009. West Hempstead Branch is good at what it does - provide service for those who live within walking distance.Then why am I seeing empty trains on it all the time? |
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| (749369) | |
Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Thu Feb 26 21:00:56 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Feb 26 12:43:05 2009. I think a case could be made for partial electrification of the OBL.Given the relatively short length of the Branch, I think that one has to either electrify wholly, or else drop service to the unelectrified remainder, at least from an operational point of view, since presumably diesel shittle service on the remainder would be reminiscent of Main Line service levels east of Ronkonkoma, or it would be discontinued totally. I'm sure these areas would resist electrification, after seeing what it did to areas along the Ronkonkoma line. The main regulatory controls on LI, as in most of the country, on real estate, are zoning and land use ordinances, power over which is almost exclusively vested in the pertinent local governmental units, e.g., Town of Oyster Bay, by enabling legislation at the state level. So it seems very doubtful to me that the locals would be compelled to accept patterning on real estate that they disfavored. Of course, the locals can't have it both ways. They complain that property tax rates are too high (when they elect the leadership, the state funding formula pumps more money into Nassau and Suffolk County districts, etc.) but they also complain about most uses of land in their jurisdiction that would decrease their tax burdens. Additionally, access to an electrified rail line would likely raise the price of real estate in the area. I wouldn't expect them - except in the City of Glen Cove maybe - to okay multiple dwellings or anything so city-like, but I assume that few will object to the prices of their homes increasing. |
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Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Thu Feb 26 21:02:23 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Feb 26 12:43:05 2009. I think a case could be made for partial electrification of the OBL.I'd like full electrification of OBL, myself.... :) You mean OBB, of course. |
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| (749396) | |
Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Thu Feb 26 22:46:39 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by trainsarefun on Thu Feb 26 21:00:56 2009. They complain that property tax rates are too high (when they elect the leadership, the state funding formula pumps more money into Nassau and Suffolk County districts, etc.) but they also complain about most uses of land in their jurisdiction that would decrease their tax burdens.From what I've seen, it's several issues together that creates the problem. Firstly, due to the property taxes, residents have taken the view that renters are tax evaders who don't pay *any* tax and only use resources. Secondly, for some, renter is a proxy for non-Asian minorities who they view with suspicious or any immigrant who is too foreign. For others, they fear increased population growth making traffic worse which seems silly given that Long Island is still below it's peak population of the 1970s.* There's this fear that Nassau is too "crowded" and feels like Queens, while Suffolk is too "crowded" and feels like Nassau. Plus, it doesn't help that the denser areas of the island have either old, outdated building stock, or ugly modern stock. All of these factors when put into the hands of area politicians creates the no-density problem. but I assume that few will object to the prices of their homes increasing The downside is that due to the increase in the value of their homes, their property taxes may go up. *I suspect this is due to the dwindling number of kids. While the population is below peak, I suspect the ratio of adults to children has changed. Hell, my school district shut down two or three middle schools in the 1980s. |
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Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Feb 26 22:49:58 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Thu Feb 26 22:46:39 2009. I understand that CHS Dist 3 closed two Jr.Hi schools, but kept the 3 high schools albeit 9-12 instead of 10-12.ROAR |
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Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Thu Feb 26 22:55:23 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Thu Feb 26 22:46:39 2009. Basically, white middle class who have no social skills leave the city, want all the services that you have in the city, don't want to pay any taxes, don't want renters to pay the tax for them and complain that the politicians they elect never accomplish anything.They are morons and proud of it. |
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Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ? |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Feb 27 15:01:28 2009, in response to Re: BL-20G's For The LIRR ?, posted by RonInBayside on Thu Feb 26 22:55:23 2009. white middle class who have no social skills leave the cityMy mom's hair dresser lives around the corner from us. Some friends of family members live near us as well, so it's also non-whites who happen to move out of the city. IIRC, when we were purchasing, a home of similar size within the five boroughs was priced at nearly $100k to $200k more than the price of our home. don't want to pay any taxes It depends. As an example, by living in Nassau County, one escapes the NYC income tax, but you're stuck with a property tax bill that can be as high as $12,000 per year in some areas. complain that the politicians they elect never accomplish anything Actually, residents are rather happen that the politicians have kept out renters since renters are viewed as non-taxpayers and poor minorities who soak up services and commit crimes. As I've stated, it doesn't help that the areas of higher density with renters are the areas with the crummier schools, higher crime rates, and high minority populations. Besides, I've heard of stories of owners complaining about white "illegal" renters too... |
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