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| June 28, 1956 (641142) | |
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| (641143) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Jun 28 13:18:55 2008, in response to June 28, 1956, posted by Andy on Sat Jun 28 13:18:01 2008. Important dates and details. Thank you. |
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| (641154) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Jun 28 13:40:00 2008, in response to June 28, 1956, posted by Andy on Sat Jun 28 13:18:01 2008. Wavecrest destination signs are a hot commodity, too. |
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| (641155) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Sat Jun 28 13:41:30 2008, in response to June 28, 1956, posted by Andy on Sat Jun 28 13:18:01 2008. How did the trains at Wavecrest go back to Brooklyn?Did they travel light to Mott and change ends? Or did the train single track after Hammels ? |
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| (641201) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Sat Jun 28 14:44:11 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by daDouce Man on Sat Jun 28 13:41:30 2008. >>>Did they travel light to Mott and change ends?<<<Yes, they did. There are some vintage photos that had the trains arrived at Mott Avenue after going light, and then change ends. Major station construction for the new Far Rockaway terminal was in full high gear starting around 1957. -William A. Padron ["Wave Crest"] |
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| (641235) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Jun 28 16:38:12 2008, in response to June 28, 1956, posted by Andy on Sat Jun 28 13:18:01 2008. There were restrictions on speed and train length at first because a power substation wasn't ready. Only R-1/9s could operate. There is a publicity photo of a train of R-16s at the opening ceremony, but four-motor cars were a no-no otherwise. |
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| (641292) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by Andy on Sat Jun 28 18:56:17 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Jun 28 16:38:12 2008. Correct. The power problem was caused because the Westinghouse Electric Corp. was shut down by a strike in late 1955. It could not provide the substation equipment on time. So the TA made contingency plans to limit the power usage on the line until the substation equipment was ready. R1-9 cars were used because they only had two motors per car (one per truck), not one motor per axle as on the R16 and later cars. |
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| (641295) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Sat Jun 28 19:02:44 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by William A. Padron on Sat Jun 28 14:44:11 2008. I've seens some pics of LIRR and TA trains "sharing" the station at Mott Ave. I should have known trains were turned at Mott.Were the switchs between Wavecrest and Mott built for the subway or part of original LIRR trackage? |
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| (641298) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Sat Jun 28 19:23:35 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by Andy on Sat Jun 28 18:56:17 2008. Wasn't there also something about equipment from the IRT Dyre Avenue line to get the Rockaway Line running? |
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| (641311) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by aaron on Sat Jun 28 20:31:36 2008, in response to June 28, 1956, posted by Andy on Sat Jun 28 13:18:01 2008. I like how the station at Mott Avenue still has Track 3 and Track 4... |
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| (641434) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Jun 29 03:39:51 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by daDouce Man on Sat Jun 28 19:02:44 2008. I don't understand how TA and LIRR trains could share the station at Mott since the original LIRR station was across Mott Av from the NYCTA station and was 2 outside platforms as opposed to the NYCTA island platform. When the NYCTA took over the operations in the Rockaways, the structure was truncated on the west side of Mott Ave. The switches were strictly NYCTA construction and the N/B track had to be moved to allow for the construction of the island platform. The tracks were in place when the NYCTA started operating to Wavecrest but eh platform wasn't passenger ready till later. |
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| (641435) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Jun 29 03:43:15 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by daDouce Man on Sat Jun 28 19:23:35 2008. I doubt that IRT equipment form the Dyre Line would have been used since there is a car body width difference. If anything other than IND equipment would have been used, it probably would have been BMT C types that had formerly run on the Fulton St el and even then since they were wooden cars they probably wouldn't have been allowed into Euclid. |
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| (641436) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Jun 29 03:44:32 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by aaron on Sat Jun 28 20:31:36 2008. Actually, the proper track numbers are F-3A and F-4A. In that case the 3 and 4 track designations would be sufficient to direct passengers. |
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| (641454) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Jun 29 08:30:56 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by randyo on Sun Jun 29 03:43:15 2008. Plus you have to remember that when the Rockaway line opened, the only new cars on the IRT mainlines were the R-17s. St. Louis had just started on the R-21 contract. In other words, no IRT cars were available; it was "All hands on deck." It was only after the R-22s (or maybe even the R-28s) had been delivered that a group of Lo-Vs were fitted with skirts and sent to the BMT to help ease the car shortage there. |
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| (641549) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Sun Jun 29 12:54:53 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by randyo on Sun Jun 29 03:39:51 2008. I'm not sure how both could share the station.My guess is LIRR used one track and the TA used the other. Maybe that was the arrangement until both companies built and rebuit their respective stations. |
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| (641551) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Sun Jun 29 12:59:43 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by randyo on Sun Jun 29 03:43:15 2008. I wasn't refering to IRT cars used in the Rockaways.I meant equipment from the sub-stations along the Dyre Line. |
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| (641585) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Jun 29 13:47:21 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by randyo on Sun Jun 29 03:39:51 2008. It was a bit of bureaucratic nonsense. The law that created the NYCTA did not allow it to pickup passengers outside of the city limits. So they cut the el structure in half and built a single island platform for the "new" NYCTA Far Rockaway Station. If they had used the old LIRR station they would have simplified transfer between the two lines. The same knucleheaded philosophy went into the designs of the stations at Howard Beach and Broad Channel. Here you have two stations with a beautiful view of the some of the nicest scenery in New York City and they go and build a seven foot high concrete wall and cut off the view. Who was responsible for that?, The warden at Sing-Sing. (Just venting)Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (641587) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Sun Jun 29 13:52:03 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Jun 29 13:47:21 2008. When was the NYCTA buses allowed to pick up customers at Green Acres Shopping Center? |
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| (641618) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by Ed Alfonsin on Sun Jun 29 15:25:43 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Jun 28 16:38:12 2008. The first passenger-carrying train was a train of R-16s (sorry--it never would have dawned on me to write down the car numbers at the time), witha canvas "Rockaway / Here We Come" sign as seen in those publicity pics. (I think it said "Rockaway," but it could have been "Wave Crest.") Mayor Wagner was there, as was the head of the TA, along with the Transit Authority Band and yours truly--a man I knew in the BMT Trainmaster's Office on Jay Street got me an invitation. The invitation didn't survive moves over the years, though. (I had seen the band before, in the Church Avenue IND station the day the IND "recaptured" the Culver line.) Good weather that day, as I recall. Ed Alfonsin Potsdam, New York |
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| (641629) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Jun 29 15:38:56 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by Ed Alfonsin on Sun Jun 29 15:25:43 2008. The front sign on that particular R-16 was indeed set to Wave Crest. |
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| (641637) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Jun 29 15:46:19 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by daDouce Man on Sun Jun 29 13:52:03 2008. Green Acres? Ohhhh-hhhhhhhhhh, Lisa!!!!! |
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| (641641) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Sun Jun 29 15:58:56 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Jun 29 15:46:19 2008. Lisa is busy talking to Arnold about something to do about making bacon. |
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| (641656) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Sun Jun 29 16:37:37 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by daDouce Man on Sun Jun 29 13:52:03 2008. Isn't Green Acres about a block away from the city line? |
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| (641702) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Sun Jun 29 17:53:49 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by daDouce Man on Sun Jun 29 15:58:56 2008. There were at least 6 "Arnolds"Green acres is the place to be FAAAARM living is the life for me...... |
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| (641747) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Sun Jun 29 19:38:13 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by Jeff Rosen on Sun Jun 29 16:37:37 2008. Just outside of NYC. But I don't know how far. |
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| (641785) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Jun 29 21:21:19 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by daDouce Man on Sun Jun 29 12:54:53 2008. The TA didn't need to use the old LIRR station since the last passenger stop was Wavecrest. The crossovers were in place north of the new station location but the new platform was not yet completed. |
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| (641790) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Jun 29 21:25:22 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Jun 29 13:47:21 2008. The original LIRR station at Mott Ave was still within the city limits. The problem was that the original station was on a slight downgrade since the LIRR is at street level past that point and it wouldn't have been a good idea to have aterminal heading downgrade towards a bumping block even with GT signals. |
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| (641791) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Jun 29 21:28:03 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Jun 29 08:30:56 2008. I used to live along the Bway IRT and if I recall, by 1956, the first of the R-21s were already on the property and in service. |
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| (641792) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Jun 29 21:28:39 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by daDouce Man on Sun Jun 29 12:59:43 2008. That could have been possible. |
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| (641807) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Sun Jun 29 21:50:08 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by SUBWAYSURF on Sun Jun 29 17:53:49 2008. No, don't tell me that. Now I feel as bad as Doug Heffernan felt when he found out his parent's dog was really 4 dogs!!! |
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| (641811) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Sun Jun 29 21:54:53 2008, in response to June 28, 1956, posted by Andy on Sat Jun 28 13:18:01 2008. When they extended it to the old Fulton El, was that when they discontinued service to 76th Street? |
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| (641814) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Jun 29 22:02:12 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by Jeff Rosen on Sun Jun 29 21:54:53 2008. Despite the April fool photo that shows up from time to time, 76 Street was never opened to passenger service and was never intended to be a terminal since the proposed switch layout was not designed for it. The post WWII plans called for the separation of the Fulton and Rockaway sevices to be at Euclid, not Rockaway Blvd. For some reason, which we will probably never know, it was decided to construct a diversion S/O Rockaway Blvd which we know as Liberty Junction. It may have been something as simple as cost since the Liberty Jct flyover was probably a lot cheaper than continuing the subway down Pitkin Av and constructing a portal in the vicinity of Aqueduct which was the original post WWII plan. |
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| (641821) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Sun Jun 29 22:28:56 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by randyo on Sun Jun 29 21:21:19 2008. Maybe TA didn't need the old LIRR station.It just so happened the station was it the tail track area. |
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| (641829) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Jun 29 22:37:29 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by daDouce Man on Sun Jun 29 15:58:56 2008. Then there was the driving lesson:"Oh, Prndl! I had von of dose vonce!" |
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| (641831) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Sun Jun 29 22:44:50 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by randyo on Sun Jun 29 22:02:12 2008. I agree with you.It would also explain why along side the Rockaway line between Pitkin Avenue to the n/e of Aqueduct station there is a ball field and some trees still standing. That's where the connection was supposed to be made. |
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| (641841) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Sun Jun 29 23:04:28 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by William A. Padron on Sat Jun 28 14:44:11 2008. And here's the pic you're referring to, and some others relevant to this discussion. I also posted them a year ago, in a similar thread. And I still don't know how to link.....sorryhttp://www.arrts-arrchives.com/oct31955.html |
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| (641849) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by DCmetrogreen on Sun Jun 29 23:08:12 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by MainR3664 on Sun Jun 29 23:04:28 2008. http://www.arrts-arrchives.com/oct31955.html |
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| (641875) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by TunnelRat on Mon Jun 30 00:33:55 2008, in response to June 28, 1956, posted by Andy on Sat Jun 28 13:18:01 2008. To satisfy everone I,ll give my own eyewitness account on mott ave before the T.A. built the station.where the eastern most end of where the station is now a wooden fence was built across the tracks seperating lirr property from t.a.property.R9`s NEVER shared the lirr`s mott ave. station with lirr`s MP54`s.the rail conn. was still in place& I did see a train of R9`s laid up coupler to coupler with a train of MP54`s with just the wooden fence seperating them.It was an amazing sight.this took place in 1956,as work on mott ave.had not been started.no known photos of this unique conn.are known to exist.in theory you could have run R9`s into NYP. |
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| (641877) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 30 01:07:16 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by TunnelRat on Mon Jun 30 00:33:55 2008. Arnines actually ran rather routinely on the LIRR for various purposes ... alas, they eventually upped the electrical ante. :) |
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| (641887) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon Jun 30 03:39:05 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 30 01:07:16 2008. I'm told the R32s were once run on LIRR 750V electricity - they were sptepping along quite impressively, though the TA did not want to repeat the performance... |
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| (641888) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 30 04:19:19 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by RonInBayside on Mon Jun 30 03:39:05 2008. I recall that *something* was run out on LIRR at 750 volts - not sure if it was a set of 32's or 44's ... but whatever ran out there did suffer pretty substantial squirrel-caging of the traction motors, so severely that the teeyay decided NEVER to do it again. :) |
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| (641909) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Jun 30 08:04:16 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 30 04:19:19 2008. It was a train of R-44s. It set a speed record for a subway train in the process, hitting 87 mph. All it needed was a flux capacitor and a little more speed for a temporal displacement to occur.:) |
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| (641910) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Jun 30 08:07:26 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Jun 29 15:46:19 2008. Oliva!!!!!!!! |
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| (641915) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Mon Jun 30 08:23:50 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 30 04:19:19 2008. I think it was a consist of R-44s.I remember seeing a pic of it at Kew Gardens Station and was running from Woodside to Jamaica. |
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| (641932) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Mon Jun 30 09:14:10 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by MainR3664 on Sun Jun 29 23:04:28 2008. Ah, yes...if one should look at that one photo in the middle of the page, a Rockaway shuttle train of R-10's can be seen in the far background distance along with the control tower but no platform visible. Railroad Avenue Enterprises also had a similar photo taken on the other side from the LIRR station near Mott Avenue showing that same arrangement, and was featured in their excellent book "Change At Ozone Park".-William A. Padron ["Beach 25th Street-Wavecrest"] |
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| (641938) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Mon Jun 30 09:24:08 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by Ed Alfonsin on Sun Jun 29 15:25:43 2008. >>The first passenger-carrying train was a train of R-16s (sorry--it never would have dawned on me to write down the car numbers at the time)<<South lead motor car on the first Rockaway run with R-16's was #6311, as seen in all those early run photos. Some fifty cars (6300-6349) were assigned there on the Rockaway line during the 1950's. -William A. Padron ["Wash.Hgts.-207th St.", as seen on R-16 front roll sign] |
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| (641946) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Mon Jun 30 09:57:40 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by William A. Padron on Mon Jun 30 09:24:08 2008. How long did the R16s stay in service on the IND Rockaway Line? |
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| (641949) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by avid reader on Mon Jun 30 10:08:00 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Mon Jun 30 09:57:40 2008. ONE TRIP. |
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| (641996) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Mon Jun 30 11:12:43 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Mon Jun 30 09:57:40 2008. Here are a few example shots of them assigned to the IND Rockaway Line during the 1950's...R-16 #6312, Rockaway Park - station platform. R-16 #6318 (gold-painted) with R-10's, Rockaway Park Yard. R-16 #6322 with R-10's, Rockaway Park Yard. During the late 1970's, some of these 6400-series R-16's were put in dead storage at Rockaway Park Yard, along with some R-10's that were in active service there also. To whit... R-16 #6466 with R-10 #3233, Rockaway Park Yard. R-16 #6490 with R-10 #3063, Rockaway Park Yard. R-16 #6492 and #6466 with R-10's, Rockaway Park Yard. R-16 #6492 with R-10's, Rockaway Park Yard. -William A. Padron ["Hammel's Wye"] |
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| (642000) | |
Re: June 28, 1956 |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Mon Jun 30 11:15:35 2008, in response to Re: June 28, 1956, posted by William A. Padron on Mon Jun 30 11:12:43 2008. To add...the R-16's were assigned to the IND Rockaway Line until around circa 1958-1959, after which they most likely went to the BMT Division's lines, probably the Eastern Division.-William A. Padron ["Mott Av.-Far Rockaway"] |
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