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| Question about original R-46 air-brake release (617739) | |
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Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release |
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Posted by WayneJay on Fri May 16 14:15:09 2008, in response to Question about original R-46 air-brake release, posted by railbus63 on Fri May 16 13:24:56 2008. Yeah, I liked the sound of the R-46's original air brakes releasing. I always called it a whistling hiss. It went away during their GOH along with the sliding controller, blue stripe, mylar side signs and other stuff. |
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| (617752) | |
Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release |
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Posted by North-Easten T/O on Fri May 16 14:18:14 2008, in response to Question about original R-46 air-brake release, posted by railbus63 on Fri May 16 13:24:56 2008. The got rid of the P=Wire Braking package, and installed a modified version of the current system. The different being that the R46's have one controller to control both braking and power. |
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| (617756) | |
Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri May 16 14:24:45 2008, in response to Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release, posted by North-Easten T/O on Fri May 16 14:18:14 2008. Subway trains don't need brakes. They just need bumper blocks, anti-climbers and passengers all built like Chuck Norris.Get rid of the brakes, and use the savings to build the Second Av subway. If you have any money left over, offer martial arts scholarships to NYC residents. :0) |
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| (617783) | |
Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release |
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Posted by North-Easten T/O on Fri May 16 15:18:26 2008, in response to Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release, posted by RonInBayside on Fri May 16 14:24:45 2008. No I don't think I like that Idear about getting rid of the brakes. Remenber I am the one in front of the train when it hits something. |
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| (617887) | |
Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release |
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Posted by Train Dude on Fri May 16 20:59:00 2008, in response to Question about original R-46 air-brake release, posted by railbus63 on Fri May 16 13:24:56 2008. Even though the R-46 had P-Wire brake control back then, the pneumatic portion of the braking was pretty standard. As I recall, it was a Westcode brake package and the sound you heard on release was due to the port on the "J" Relay valve (or whatever Westcode called it). In 1990, the P-Wire system was eliminated and the brake package was replaced with a NYAB Brake package - same principle but the port on the "J" relay valve was of a different size. |
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| (617892) | |
Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Fri May 16 21:16:42 2008, in response to Question about original R-46 air-brake release, posted by railbus63 on Fri May 16 13:24:56 2008. I recall riding the subway during the early 1980's when the R-46's were still relatively new. Back then, they had a very unique air-brake release sound that I've never heard on another car in New York or on any other transit system. It started out as a high-pitched whistle and gradually faded.I recall it sounding something like the LIRR M3s do - more hiss than high-pitched whistle (whistle on an emergency brake application maybe?), although you seem to describe something more like the R44 sound, which seem to give the off the highest pitch on that release that I can recall of any EMU offhand. |
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| (617929) | |
Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Fri May 16 22:17:07 2008, in response to Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release, posted by Train Dude on Fri May 16 20:59:00 2008. The R46 cars also had the "decelostat" |
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| (617960) | |
Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release |
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Posted by David on Fri May 16 23:13:00 2008, in response to Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release, posted by Jeff H. on Fri May 16 22:17:07 2008. I thought it was the R-44 class that had the "decelostat."David |
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| (617969) | |
Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release |
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Posted by Train Dude on Fri May 16 23:29:12 2008, in response to Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release, posted by David on Fri May 16 23:13:00 2008. "I thought it was the R-44 class that had the "decelostat."Nope - The R-44s had the Fratostat, remember? :) |
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| (617995) | |
Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release |
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Posted by David on Sat May 17 00:43:49 2008, in response to Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release, posted by Train Dude on Fri May 16 23:29:12 2008. Actually, it was a ThingamaSteve...Seriously, folks, the decelostat was a form of slip/slide control, intended to prevent flat wheels. I don't think it worked very well. However, I think it's the R-44 class that had it, not the R-46 class as Jeff asserted. Neither class has it now. David |
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| (618074) | |
Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat May 17 11:54:21 2008, in response to Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release, posted by trainsarefun on Fri May 16 21:16:42 2008. Nah, it was a whistle...I remember it well. It was also the quickest brake release sound I've ever heard...those cars could start moving quicker than any other type I've ridden once the doors closed. |
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| (618078) | |
Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat May 17 11:57:19 2008, in response to Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat May 17 11:54:21 2008. In that case, I will defer to the two of you on the sound then, since I'm a bit hazy on it. |
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| (618128) | |
Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat May 17 14:09:12 2008, in response to Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release, posted by David on Sat May 17 00:43:49 2008. I thought it was the R-46 that had it but either way, it was before my time (damn it actually feels good to say that for a change). It worked like ABS brakes do now. Each axle had a reader that fed the RPM to a comparitor card. If one axle was turning faster or slower than the others, the brake effort to that axle was adjusted accordingly. |
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| (618162) | |
Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release |
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Posted by randyo on Sat May 17 16:14:22 2008, in response to Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release, posted by trainsarefun on Sat May 17 11:57:19 2008. The R-44s had a WABCO RT-5 brake package similar to most of the MTA's commuter equipment. The exception is the New Haven division's M-2s which like the R-46s have a Westcode RT-5 (or whatever Westcode calls it) brake package. Both systems utilize electronic P wire control of braking although 1 train each of R-44s and 46s received an experimental WABCO RT-2 brake package with cineston cotrollers, ultimately, the R-44s received a similar Westcode package and the R-46s receved NYAB's equivalent which is called Newtran. The R-44 brake release sounds like the train had a bit too many baked beans for lunch while the R-46 package sort of moans when it releases. Except for the single handle controller on the R-46s, the brake package is almost identical to the brake packages on the Phase II GOH R-32s and the CI GOH R-42s as well as the R-62As and R-68s despite the slight difference in the sound of the release. The SIRTOA R-44s received the WABCO RT-2 brake package with the more common cineston controller. The Westcode brake package that found its way to the R-44s was tried on a single train of R-42s prior to its installation on the R-44s with the single handle controller placed in only one car of each married pair. I remember seeing the specs for the GOH of the R-46s and the specs called for the installation of a WABCO RT-2 brake package with a cineston controller or its equivalent. I don't believe any such requirement was specified for the R-44s since they actually received the Westcode brake package prior to GOH. One train of R-44s actually had the Westcode P wire brake package as an experiment which may have been the reason that the Westcode brake package rather than WABCO's was installed on the R-46s as delivered. |
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| (618221) | |
Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Sat May 17 18:25:16 2008, in response to Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release, posted by Train Dude on Fri May 16 23:29:12 2008. I thought the fratostat had to do with body flexing. |
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| (618228) | |
Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat May 17 18:40:42 2008, in response to Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Sat May 17 18:25:16 2008. I thought the fratostat had to do with body flexing.Why do you say that? |
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| (618230) | |
Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat May 17 18:42:05 2008, in response to Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release, posted by randyo on Sat May 17 16:14:22 2008. Actually, it was the last 12 (388-399) R-44s IIRC. They also had air bag Rockwell trucks. |
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| (618231) | |
Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat May 17 18:43:36 2008, in response to Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release, posted by trainsarefun on Sat May 17 18:40:42 2008. We were just talking about decelostats vs fratostats - not their relative functions. |
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| (618234) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat May 17 18:48:09 2008, in response to Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release, posted by randyo on Sat May 17 16:14:22 2008. Can you describe what a cineston controller is? |
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| (618240) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 19:01:26 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by RonInBayside on Sat May 17 18:48:09 2008.  Cineston controller:Courtesy of "Chicago-l.org" ... This view of of car 41's motorcab at the Illinois Railway Museum shows a fuller view of the layout of a PCC single-car's cab. In the front center is the Cineston controller, which controlled the motive power and electric brakes by moving the handle from one side to another through power and brake points. It's equipped with a deadman's feature, which puts the car into "brake" if it's released, so don't forget to hold it down! Above the Cineston in the window is the run number box. The seat is swiveled so that the motorman could operate the train, and then turn around to operate the individual door controls in the rear of his cab or use the farebox in the rear window of his cab if he were operating a one-man run. (Photo by Robert Feldman) |
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| (618244) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Sat May 17 19:08:49 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 19:01:26 2008. I assume he could only collect fares when the platforms were on the right side, right? Or was there a method to collect fares no matter what side the platforms were on? |
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| (618247) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 19:14:39 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Sat May 17 19:08:49 2008. Chicago's "L" used "subway cars" that were essentially PCC trolleys. Motorpeople ran the train ... no fare collection. :) |
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| (618249) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 19:18:02 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 19:14:39 2008. They looked like these:
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| (618250) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Sat May 17 19:19:23 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 19:14:39 2008. What about the part of the article you posted which said the seat swiveled so the operator could operate the farebox behind him? Maybe these were some cars used on Septa's norristown line? I think the operator collects the fare on that train. |
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| (618254) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Sat May 17 19:24:03 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 19:18:02 2008. Yeah, those were excellent cars. MTA could use some lighter cars on their Els, like the J, M, Z, and L. Too bad they didn't follow with the BMT's plans for light cars on Els. I remember reading about MTA planning on buying light cars for old els, like 3rd avenue, instead of tearing it down. Would those cars be like the CTA PCC type cars? Or just light, and fast SMEEs? |
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| (618256) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 19:27:46 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Sat May 17 19:19:23 2008. "If operating a one-man run" ... I'm not all that familiar with Chicago other than riding out there a few times. We've got the guy who runs that site among us, perhaps he'll pick up on this thread and get you some real answers. |
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| (618259) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 19:28:39 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Sat May 17 19:24:03 2008. They would have been similar to the R33's from what I'd read but bear in mind, the city didn't have the money to keep streetlights lit back in those days. :( |
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| (618262) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by randyo on Sat May 17 19:35:03 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 19:28:39 2008. I would suspect that they would have been IRT sized R-32s or 38s. |
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| (618263) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Sat May 17 19:35:10 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 19:28:39 2008. Shame. Lots of corruption in those days. Arnines were retired before their time was due as well. Then the 44s came in with their problems. Some TA managers got LOTS of money for the scrap value of those Arnines, which is why they were so quick to scrap them, and buy the 44s, another deal that TA managers got money from.This is why the TA has been neglecting the SMEEs since they planned on buying NTTS, so they can get beat up, and when the NTTS come, the managers will be thanked for buying new cars. This is also why TA is so quick on reefing the cars, they skim lots of money from the budget for new cars. |
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| (618269) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Sat May 17 19:38:51 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by randyo on Sat May 17 19:35:03 2008. That would be EXCELLENT. If they were built by BUDD, they would still be FLYING through the tunnels. I like the R38 design more though, but i like the BUDDs more in general. |
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| (618277) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 19:53:29 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by randyo on Sat May 17 19:35:03 2008. Well, between you, me and the drain cock on the tank, aside from the stainless, they were all pretty much the same whether 9 footers or 10 footers. Particularly undercar. Many years ago, actually saw a drawing for them ... pity it never happened. :( |
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| (618280) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 19:58:12 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Sat May 17 19:35:10 2008. Nah, it was just a chit economy ... same thing that's happened every time after several years of a republican in the White House. Saw it with Eisenhower, Nixon/Ford, Reagan/Daddy and now with junior. If there isn't the money around, plans go straight to hell. Like now ... :( |
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| (618317) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat May 17 21:04:58 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 19:01:26 2008. Thank you.So it is a one handle control for both power and braking. Would an a jetliner's throttle be described similarly if one motion on the same handles takes you from maximum fotward thrust through idle to reverse thrust? |
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| (618327) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 21:12:27 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by RonInBayside on Sat May 17 21:04:58 2008. Totally outside my area or pay grade there. :)But otherwise, yer most welcome ... I'm sure someone here knows more about it than a pilot. Heh. |
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| (618342) | |
Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release |
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on Sat May 17 21:37:01 2008, in response to Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release, posted by Train Dude on Sat May 17 18:43:36 2008. fratostat, an imaginary machine part. :-) |
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| (618345) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by randyo on Sat May 17 21:39:15 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Sat May 17 19:38:51 2008. As a M/M, I found the R-32s to be a better operating train. |
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| (618346) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by randyo on Sat May 17 21:39:58 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 19:53:29 2008. Are there any drawings of the proposed design still available? |
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| (618350) | |
Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Sat May 17 21:46:36 2008, in response to Re: Question about original R-46 air-brake release, posted by Dan Lawrence on Sat May 17 21:37:01 2008. WHAT!!! That thing is a FAKE? TRAINDUDE!!! You fooled me? WHY? So there is no flex control on thee cars, GEEZE. |
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| (618353) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Sat May 17 21:49:38 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by randyo on Sat May 17 21:39:15 2008. Thanks. You also said you did the C line to world trade in 25 or 27 minutes, right? With an R32 pre-GOH(pre-neutering).Must have hit 35 miles consistently between stations, maybe more. |
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| (618355) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 21:52:33 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by randyo on Sat May 17 21:39:58 2008. Not that I can find ... even checked Sanson's drawings and it's not there either. Machine I had a copy of it on died back in 2005 so I don't have it any longer. The drawing showed the exact same layout as the R33S, but with the R-38 style fluted metal below the picture window sashes and straight stainless above the belitline on the sides. Otherwise the door and window and route signage was exactly the same as the R33S other than the stainless instead of LAHT construction. If you will, a mix of the R33S and R38 styling ... |
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| (618357) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 21:53:48 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by randyo on Sat May 17 21:39:15 2008. I'll also testify to the 32's having balls before they got neutered. :( |
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| (618359) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Sat May 17 21:55:17 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 21:52:33 2008. COOL. That would be a NICE looking machine. R38s are handsome, especially the route sign area up front. |
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| (618374) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 22:16:22 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Sat May 17 21:55:17 2008. I thought the 32's bulkheads were MUCH nicer myself ...
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| (618377) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Sat May 17 22:19:34 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 22:16:22 2008. I'll agree with you on that. Just comparing that bland forehead the 32s have now, while the 38s still have some shapes and curves and lines up on their forehead. 38s seem to have a heritage look, with an outline of an "ogee" roof like from the R-10s. |
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| (618383) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 22:28:38 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Sat May 17 22:19:34 2008. They had that originally, but with the rest of the 32 trappings "up top" ... LCL and EXP signs out on the "wings" there. |
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| (618392) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat May 17 22:43:59 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 19:27:46 2008. the 'one man cars 1-50' were built for use on lightly used runs. This was a late 50s union concession to reality. The Evanston Local in off hours was the breakthrough as the OPTO agreement allowed retaining close headways at lower labor cost. The motorman collected fares on the train. My experience of this in the early 60s post midnight having escorted a fair lady home then heading back to the South Side. |
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| (618398) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 22:46:46 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat May 17 22:43:59 2008. Had a feeling it might be closer to the old Dyre and Culver shuttles on the overnights ... thanks for the tidbit! :) |
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| (618413) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat May 17 23:07:05 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 22:46:46 2008. always welcome Kevin. Gotta put geezer memories to some use. And also close to lower half Myrtle which was Pay Fare on Train weekday afternoons in 68. |
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| (618415) | |
Re: Question about cineston controller |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat May 17 23:08:06 2008, in response to Re: Question about cineston controller, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat May 17 23:07:05 2008. Heh. Remembered that after I posted. Alas, never rode it during those hours since I was a Bronx boy. :) |
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