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WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Mon Dec 10 07:44:48 2007 Tunnel Loses Backers as Landowners Unite for GrowthBy Amy Gardner Washington Post Staff Writer Sunday, December 2, 2007 Related Stories Metrorail Extension Elevated-Line Foes Sue U.S. Department of Transportation Bill Turque Washington Post Virginia Briefing Wednesday, November 28, 2007 Keeping the Tysons Tunnel on His Agenda Amy Gardner Washington Post Fairfax Politics Thursday, December 6, 2007 John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Mon Dec 10 23:58:12 2007, in response to WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news, posted by Sand Box John on Mon Dec 10 07:44:48 2007. I prefer the tunnel - I think the whole shebang should be in tunnel until it comes out onto the Dulles Access Road. If they can't get their respective acts together, they stand to lose the funding, and thus the whole initiative might be considered 'dead'.wayne |
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Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Tue Dec 11 11:10:59 2007, in response to Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Mon Dec 10 23:58:12 2007. I prefer the tunnel - I think the whole shebang should be in tunnel until it comes out onto the Dulles Access Road.You an I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Here is my reason. The tunnel concept promoted by Tysons Tunnel Inc violates all of the established standards that were put to paper back in the 1960s. The stations in subway bear no resemblance to any of the existing subway stations in the system. If they can't get their respective acts together, they stand to lose the funding, and thus the whole initiative might be considered 'dead'. As pointed out in the first article the folks are starting to bail on Tysons Tunnel Inc. They want this extension. They are shifting their support to the elevated alignments that came out of the FEIS. I have few problems with the elevated alignment, I don't like the station in the ditch at Pike Seven Plaza. That station should be an exact copy of the Spring Hill Road station with east portals in the middle of loop ramp of the interchange east of the station. I would rather see the less the perfect elevated alignments then a bastardized versions of WMATA's metrorail stations in subway. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Dec 11 11:57:39 2007, in response to WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news, posted by Sand Box John on Mon Dec 10 07:44:48 2007. hey, let's argue about how not to build it for a decade! Get the Va delegation in Congress to find the dollars and start digging. PS, no matter how lovely aerial structures are, and after all this IS a railfan site, tunnels have many advantages including being out of the weather. |
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Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Tue Dec 11 12:13:36 2007, in response to WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news, posted by Sand Box John on Mon Dec 10 07:44:48 2007. Without financial backing, the lawsuit may run out of steam. WMATA can stall, and without an actual injunction (unlikely to occur, but not impossible) the approval, design and construction can proceed.I'm still concerned about WMATA's ability to maintain the new line as well as its existing infrastructure. |
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Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news |
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Posted by Fine, Howard, and Fine on Tue Dec 11 12:55:58 2007, in response to Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news, posted by RonInBayside on Tue Dec 11 12:13:36 2007. What can WMATA do to stall anything related to Tysons/Dulles, Ron?The new GM has made it perfectly clear that WMATA will not be doing any construction anywhere. Zero employees in construction now. The head of standards and criteria (which would've approved anything that MWAA wanted to build) was fired in April and not replaced. There simply isn't anybody in WMATA to stall anything. |
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Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Tue Dec 11 13:09:18 2007, in response to Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news, posted by Fine, Howard, and Fine on Tue Dec 11 12:55:58 2007. Reread my post. |
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Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news |
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Posted by Fine, Howard, and Fine on Tue Dec 11 13:14:19 2007, in response to Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news, posted by RonInBayside on Tue Dec 11 13:09:18 2007. I did, and I re-read the original article too.The new GM has made it perfectly clear: WMATA has nothing to do with Dulles construction. He fired all the people who might have had anything to do with it. I just don't understand how you think that WMATA action or inaction might do anything at this point. Maybe you don't understand the MWAA and how it's running the show and you are writing "WMATA" when you meant "MWAA"? |
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Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Tue Dec 11 13:17:25 2007, in response to Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news, posted by Fine, Howard, and Fine on Tue Dec 11 13:14:19 2007. Possibly.My point is that this lawsuit is unlikely to derail the planning, engineerng and construction process if financialbacking for the suit is eliminated. |
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Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Thu Dec 13 08:42:27 2007, in response to Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Dec 11 11:57:39 2007. hey, let's argue about how not to build it for a decade! Get the Va delegation in Congress to find the dollars and start digging.Some dollars have already been appropriated by Congress. Most of the dollars for local share have already been appropriated. Digging will begin long before the argument reaches the age of 10 years. PS, no matter how lovely aerial structures are, and after all this IS a railfan site, tunnels have many advantages including being out of the weather. The only problem with that is the tunnel being proposed by Tysons Tunnel Inc violates all of the established standards that were put to paper by WMATA back in the late 1960s. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Thu Dec 13 09:28:57 2007, in response to Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news, posted by RonInBayside on Tue Dec 11 12:13:36 2007. Without financial backing, the lawsuit may run out of steam. WMATA can stall, and without an actual injunction (unlikely to occur, but not impossible) the approval, design and construction can proceed.WMATA is not a party in the law suit. They have no dog in this fight. The suit is between Tysons Tunnel Inc. and United States Department of Transportation. The construction of the N Route Silver line is being built under the Virginia Public-Private Transportation Act (PPTA) of 1995. The parties in this project are the Virginia Department of Rail and Public Transportation, Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority and the Bechtel Washington Group Partnership (Dulles Corridor Metrorail Project). The only involvement WMATA has is providing the basic design specification to the PPTA group need to for construction of the line, stations and support facilities. I'm still concerned about WMATA's ability to maintain the new line as well as its existing infrastructure. That is a totally different issue. |
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Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news |
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Posted by Forest Glen on Thu Dec 13 17:19:58 2007, in response to WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news, posted by Sand Box John on Mon Dec 10 07:44:48 2007. Reverse-NIMBY's. The grass is truly greener on the other side. Hopefully this thing gets built. |
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Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Fri Dec 14 07:06:31 2007, in response to Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news, posted by Forest Glen on Thu Dec 13 17:19:58 2007. Reverse-NIMBY's.Not at all. All parties want it built. The dispute is about what the various party wants Tysons Corner to look like in 25 years. The grass is truly greener on the other side. Hopefully this thing gets built. There is no 'Hopefully' about it. It will get built. The state and local jurisdictions have their construction funding sources in place, partly using special taxing districts. The collection of moneys using special taxing districts began more then 2 years ago. The Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority will pay their share using bonds that will be retired from the Dulles Toll Road revenue. Tolls on the Dulles Toll Road were raised almost 3 years ago. It is my believe that when the bonds are retired that the toll revenue will be used to partly pay for the operating costs. If this becomes reality, it should make Ron happy. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Dec 14 07:25:20 2007, in response to Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news, posted by Sand Box John on Fri Dec 14 07:06:31 2007. Thanks for clearing that up. |
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Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news |
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Posted by cortelyounext on Fri Dec 14 08:02:42 2007, in response to WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news, posted by Sand Box John on Mon Dec 10 07:44:48 2007. Whatever the funding or final form that extension takes it needs to be built sooner rather than later. The growth in the area to the west, notwithstanding the airport traffic which is directly related, is "exponential". I work out of Washington Dulles and, on occasion as I will be tomorrow, Reagan National. At least a half dozen times over the last few months I'll find myself sitting in Fairfax or Loudon County and am told I need to hightail it over to Arlington. I immediately pack my bags,take the next hotel shuttle back to Dulles, hop on the Washington Flyer bus to West Falls Metro, jump on the Orange Line, transfer over to the Blue Line at Rosslyn, and finally end up at Reagan National. It is a selfish commentary I know, but even for a railfan that sort of commute is beyond tiresome. All whining aside, there are many commuters like me, both domestic and international, who would benefit. The people of Tysons Corner and the state/federal taxpayers, depending on the revenue source, well, that is another thread altogether. Now I am off to the Burlington, Vermont airport to see if I can even get down to Washington, DC this afternoon what with the weather up here and all. You "Southern folk" like Selkirk TMO don't know how easy you got it... |
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Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Sat Dec 15 00:04:53 2007, in response to Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news, posted by cortelyounext on Fri Dec 14 08:02:42 2007. Many of the folks that profess and believe this project is a boondoggle justify their statements by saying that $5.1 billion is to much money to spend on a rail line to Dulles Airport. This argument is BS because of the simple fact the more then 85% of the passengers that will use the line daily will never set foot on the station platform at the airport.John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Dec 15 01:06:18 2007, in response to Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news, posted by Sand Box John on Sat Dec 15 00:04:53 2007. Excellent point.Here in Kansas City, there is periodically talk about building light rail to Kansas City International (20 miles from the city). But the Light Rail line would not really be about the airport - it would be about developing commercial and residential properties along the route, which, oh by the way, would terminate at the airport. |
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Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Sat Dec 15 09:12:21 2007, in response to Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news, posted by RonInBayside on Sat Dec 15 01:06:18 2007. Here in Kansas City, there is periodically talk about building light rail to Kansas City International (20 miles from the city). But the Light Rail line would not really be about the airport - it would be about developing commercial and residential properties along the route, which, oh by the way, would terminate at the airport.The analogy for justification maybe the same. However in my opinion I consider all of the light rail concepts that have been proposed for Kansas City are boondoggles. The density just isn't there. You may recall that I went down to Charlotte North Carolina to check out their new light rail line two weeks ago. $462.7 million for an under built 9.6 miles light rail line that is predicted to have an average of 9,100 daily boardings by years end. So far they have average 12,300 daily boardings. Most of the boardings are the result of events at the arena and above average predicted off peek use. From what I have heard the fare box recovery ratio for this line will be in the neighborhood 25% when phase II is built to the north. This is comparable to the fare box recovery ratio of the Baltimore Central Light Rail line. Now lets compare fare box recovery ratios. Baltimore Central Light Rail 21% CATS lynx Light Rail *25% WMATA metrorail 55% * predicted Oh and by the way Maryland Law states that transit operated by the Maryland Transit Administration (light rail, subway and busses) must have a fare box recovery ratio no less then 50%. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Dec 15 10:02:27 2007, in response to Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news, posted by Sand Box John on Sat Dec 15 09:12:21 2007. No boondoggle at all. You missed a few important details.First off: Kansas City's current farebox recovery ratio is 15%. KCATA relies on sales taxes and federal subsidies. The State of Missouri gives KCATA an annual subsidy of $800,000, which has not changed at all over the last couple of years to even account for inflation. I mention this for the sake of accuracy. I will concede, obviously, that KC does worse than even Charlotte in the farebox. I have to disagree strongly about your remarks on density. It is true that Kansas City is less dense than many other places (and it is less dense than another recent Missouri liht-rail recipient, St. Louis. However, the density taken by itself is misleading. First, recent construction has increased debsity sinificantly in certain districts (Country Club Plaza, Power and Light entertainment area, Crown Center, downtown). There is a substantial population, especially on the East Side, of riders who do not own cars (and in contrast to NY, these are poor people, who cannot drive because they can't afford it). KCATA's Line 25 and MAX BRT lines are the two most frequent bus services, and both see standing loads at rush hour. Both KCATA and a Citizens Task Force that has mapped out proposals for Light Rail, with the aid of Oppenheimer & Co (the investment firm) have shown that Light Rail would be a cost-effective transit solution for a line etending from North Kansas City down to the shopping, hotel and entertainment area called the Country Club Plaza (which is also close to the University of Missouri campus). Development of Light Rail along that corridor, with a spur to the East and co-development of additional complementary BRT services is likely to produce sustained double-digit ridership increases. Experience in St. Louis has shown that when Light Rail appers, bus ridership goes up, too. I'm not especially enamored of the airport line idea, and I'd agree with you on density there. |
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Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Sat Dec 15 11:33:40 2007, in response to Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news, posted by RonInBayside on Sat Dec 15 10:02:27 2007. Ron,You must of forgotten that I was born in Kansas City. I grew up on the Country Club Plaza. I have family that still lives in the Kansas City area. I saw the growth in the 1960s and 70s. I have no doubt that the growth has continued. The 15% you quote is proof to me that light rail would be an even bigger boondoggle. Your point that the east side has a transit dependent population leads me to believe that this no more then a wealth redistribution schema that subsidies the cost of transportation to those that can not or will not pay for it out of their own pockets. You own a car. You pay the city and state fees and taxes to own and operate that car on the public roads. You pay motor fuel taxes to pay the costs of maintaining and building the roads you drive on. A percentage of the sales tax subsidies transit in Kansas City. That transit dependent population is picking you pocket Ron. Build light rail in Kansas City they will pick your pocket even more. A banker friend of mine once said, "There is no such thing as a free lunch, somebody else somewhere is paying for that lunch." John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Dec 15 11:42:11 2007, in response to Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news, posted by Sand Box John on Sat Dec 15 11:33:40 2007. "The 15% you quote is proof to me that light rail would be an even bigger boondoggle."It means that not enough people are using transit. "You must of forgotten that I was born in Kansas City. I grew up on the Country Club Plaza. I have family that still lives in the Kansas City area. I saw the growth in the 1960s and 70s. I have no doubt that the growth has continued. " I didn't forget. And yes, the growth has continued. Mind you, I like it - my wifde derisively calls Kansas City a "nice suburb" but since it has urban problems, I'd like to see a more solid urban tax base (and that means higher density). Higher density ---> more demand for transit. "Your point that the east side has a transit dependent population leads me to believe that this no more then a wealth redistribution schema that subsidies the cost of transportation to those that can not or will not pay for it out of their own pockets." There is no question that investment in transit produces wealth redistribution,and that is entirely proper. In Kansas City, the wealth distribution is much, much smaller than in other places because the sales tax funding transit is regressive - it falls disproportionately on the poor. The poor subsidize the rich; transit evens the playing field a little. "You own a car. You pay the city and state fees and taxes to own and operate that car on the public roads." Which does't even come close to paying the costs of those roads. In Kansas City, a 1 cent sales tax pays for roads - again, the poor subsidizing the rich; car-less people subsidizing drivers. |
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Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Sat Dec 15 12:30:58 2007, in response to Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news, posted by RonInBayside on Sat Dec 15 11:42:11 2007. There is no question that investment in transit produces wealth redistribution, and that is entirely proper. In Kansas City, the wealth distribution is much, much smaller than in other places because the sales tax funding transit is regressive - it falls disproportionately on the poor. The poor subsidize the rich; transit evens the playing field a little.Ron, You and I are going to have to agree to disagree on that point. Which does't even come close to paying the costs of those roads. In Kansas City, a 1 cent sales tax pays for roads - again, the poor subsidizing the rich; car-less people subsidizing drivers. You forgot about the $0.17 a gallon motor fuel tax that the state of Missouri and the $0.18.4 a gallon motor fuel tax the Federal government levies on you when you fuel your car. The car-less population doesn't pay that tax. Oh, you should also take note in that federal tax document I linked to, $0.02.85 of the federal motor fuel tax goes into the mass transit account. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Dec 15 13:44:35 2007, in response to Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news, posted by Sand Box John on Sat Dec 15 12:30:58 2007. "You forgot about the $0.17 a gallon motor fuel tax that the state of Missouri and the $0.18.4 a gallon motor fuel tax the Federal government levies on you when you fuel your car."You mean the money that goes into a trust fund which the Bush Administration borrows against to reduce deficits caused by Iraq spending? "The car-less population doesn't pay that tax." The sales tax hits them much harder. " Oh, you should also take note in that federal tax document I linked to, $0.02.85 of the federal motor fuel tax goes into the mass transit account." If it were up to me that amount would be at least 7 cents. The current amount is a travesty. |
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Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Sun Dec 16 07:21:42 2007, in response to Re: WMATA Latest N Route Silver line news, posted by RonInBayside on Sat Dec 15 13:44:35 2007. You mean the money that goes into a trust fund which the Bush Administration borrows against to reduce deficits caused by Iraq spending?The percentage of the federal budget spent by the Department of Defense is at a historical low. President Bush has increased the size of the federal budget by signing appropriation legislation that rivals what was done during the era of the Great Society. If it were up to me that amount would be at least 7 cents. The current amount is a travesty. $0.02.85 is 15.48% of $0.18.4. That's well above the less then 3% of the population that uses transit. $0.07 is 38% of $0.18.4. That percentage would be a negative benefit to the people that paid those motor fuel taxes. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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