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Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Jul 3 11:43:47 2007, in response to Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity, posted by David Fairthorne on Tue Jul 3 00:19:41 2007. I like the illustrations. If the average of the most crowded sections of lines has become significantly less crowded over the 30 year period, I suppose that was the result of new lines being built at a faster rate than ridership increased.The dotted line shows capacity, increase meaning new lines, more tracks, longer trains and so on. 100 is the capacity of 1975 (Showa 50 Imperial calender). The thin line shows ridership, again making the 1975 figure as 100. Between Heisei 2 (1990) and Heisei 7 (1995), Japan's economy crashed and many went jobless. Curiously, nowhere on the JR Chuo local line is more than 89% crowded! It's the V line of Tokyo... They should really stop sending half of the trains to Metro Tozai line and make all of them go to Shinjuku and beyond instead. |
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| (455386) | |
Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity |
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Posted by David Fairthorne on Tue Jul 3 15:44:15 2007, in response to Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity, posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Jul 3 11:43:47 2007. The dotted line shows capacity, ... The thin line shows ridership, again making the 1975 figure as 100.Thanks for those helpful explanations. I was wondering what those other lines meant, and how the dates were calculated. Between Heisei 2 (1990) and Heisei 7 (1995), Japan's economy crashed and many went jobless. There was a bubble, followed by concerns about disinflation; Japanese interest rates have remained very low since 1990. They should really stop sending half of the trains to Metro Tozai line and make all of them go to Shinjuku and beyond instead. Then all Tozai metro trains would terminate at Nakano, and only the Chuo local would serve stations between Nakano and Mitaka. That would compel some passengers to ride the Chuo local line, but how many would stay on board? The Chuo local line is part of the Chuo-Sobu local line, which bypasses Tokyo station, going instead via Akihabara; whereas the Chuo rapid line goes to Tokyo station, and thus serves the main business district surrounding Tokyo station. I suspect that may be one reason for the relatively low ridership of the Chuo local line and the much higher ridership of the Chuo rapid line. Also unlike the Chuo local, the Tozai metro has a station at Otemachi, right in the middle of the main business district. |
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| (455704) | |
Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Wed Jul 4 09:28:44 2007, in response to Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity, posted by David Fairthorne on Tue Jul 3 15:44:15 2007. Then all Tozai metro trains would terminate at Nakano, and only the Chuo local would serve stations between Nakano and Mitaka.Most Chuo rapids make those local stops too, thanks to the political powers at Koenji, Asagaya and Nishi-Ogikubo. So, people will get on the Chuo rapid, instead of the local of which half of them won't take them to Shinjuku. The awkward platform layout of Nakano is no help either. They are almost no useful across the platform transfers! The Tozai is only good for people working near Otemachi or the financial district at Nihombashi. A big chunk of commuters from the West now work at Shinjuku or somewhere on the Western part of Yamanote line. This is quite different from the days the Tozai line was being built. Back then, the sole CBD was on the east side and Shinjuku's high-rise business centre was still a water treatment plant. A lot of people who work at Otemachi and Nihombashi comes from the other end of the Tozai line and that eastern part is very crowded. There has been talk of closing down Takadanobaba - Nakano of the Tozai line and divert it to a through service on the Seibu Shinjuku line but I believe that ended with just a few studies. |
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| (455705) | |
Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Wed Jul 4 09:36:52 2007, in response to Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity, posted by SMAZ on Wed Jun 27 04:00:13 2007. However, what I meant is that it would feed into the old Second System link at 2 Avenue on the 6 Avenue line, and then travel up the 6 Avenue line (which is NOT at capacity) to the SAS). Think one that focuses on the Horace Harding Expressway corridor (via Metro Avenue to Eliot, up Eliot, and then via the Horace Harding). It would also relieve crowding on the L, and provide subway service to an area that is served by an overcrowded E line...and provide the thing the MTA seeks most: a lot of NEW ridership. |
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| (455821) | |
Tokyo (Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity) |
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Posted by David Fairthorne on Wed Jul 4 15:33:12 2007, in response to Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity, posted by Wado MP73 on Wed Jul 4 09:28:44 2007. Most Chuo rapids make those local stops too,Sorry, my mistake. Even if most of those people work at Shinjuku, I wouldn't want to deprive them of service to the old east side business district! So the Chuo rapid is very crowded because it serves both Shinjuku and the old CBD, unlike the Tozai metro which misses Shinjuku and the Chuo local which misses the older business districts near Tokyo station (Otemachi and Nihombashi). A lot of people who work at Otemachi and Nihombashi comes from the other end of the Tozai line and that eastern part is very crowded. I noticed that. The most crowded place on the entire subway is from Kiba to Monzen-Nakacho on the Tozai metro (198%). There has been talk of closing down Takadanobaba - Nakano of the Tozai line and divert it to a through service on the Seibu Shinjuku line I can see the attraction of through running of some, but not all, Tozai metro trains to the Seibu Shinjuku line via Takadanobaba ("Baba"), which must be a busy interchange station. But some users of the Tozai metro would still want to go to Nakano and Mitaka. And of course a great many users of the Seibu Shinjuku line would still want to use Seibu Shinjuku station. |
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| (456067) | |
Re: Tokyo (Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity) |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Thu Jul 5 08:10:54 2007, in response to Tokyo (Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity), posted by David Fairthorne on Wed Jul 4 15:33:12 2007. And of course a great many users of the Seibu Shinjuku line would still want to use Seibu Shinjuku station.Seibu Shinjuku is too far away from the Shinjuku CBD (twenty minutes walk) so most people transfer at Takatanobaba to the Yamanote line to get there. Even on the way home, people who don't care about getting a seat would not use Seibu Shinjku. Also, here's what's wrong at Nakano:  Track 7 & 8 Eastbound Chuo rapid (alternating tracks during morning rush) Track 6 Westbound Chuo rapid Track 5 Eastbound Chuo local or Tozai line coming from Mitaka Track 4 Tozai line turning at Nakano Track 3 Westbound Chuo local coming from Tozai line, also used for Tozai line turning at Nakano Track 2 Chuo local turning at Nakano Track 1 Westbound Chuo local coming from Shinjuku, also used for Chuo local turning at Nakano So you have two choices of platforms for all three directions of the Chuo local/Tozai line and you never get an across the platform transfer from a train that came from Mitaka to a train turning at Nakano. |
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| (456271) | |
Re: Tokyo (Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity) |
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Posted by David Fairthorne on Thu Jul 5 15:09:14 2007, in response to Re: Tokyo (Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity), posted by Wado MP73 on Thu Jul 5 08:10:54 2007. Seibu Shinjuku is too far away from the Shinjuku CBD (twenty minutes walk)I can see why many people change trains at "Baba". Seibu Shinjuku is about a half mile north of the main Shinjuku station complex, but I think there are some important buildings near the Marunouchi line, about equidistant from the two stations. Also, here's what's wrong at Nakano: Given that the Chuo line tracks are paired by speed, not by direction, cross-platform interchange to or from the Chuo rapid would obviously be impossible. But at least you have a choice between two underpasses, one of which has escalators. So you have two choices of platforms for all three directions of the Chuo local/Tozai line and you never get an across the platform transfer from a train that came from Mitaka to a train turning at Nakano. That seems perverse on the face of it. In order to allow cross-platform transfers, I suppose they could use tracks 3 and 4 for eastbound local and tracks 1 and 2 for westbound local. But then terminating trains would have to stop first on track 2, then go into a siding (if there is one) before stopping again on track 3. I don't think just one terminating track would be enough. |
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| (456345) | |
Re: Tokyo (Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity) |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Thu Jul 5 17:04:02 2007, in response to Re: Tokyo (Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity), posted by David Fairthorne on Thu Jul 5 15:09:14 2007. I think there are some important buildings near the Marunouchi line, about equidistant from the two stations.Mostly shops, department stores, restaurants. That seems perverse on the face of it. In order to allow cross-platform transfers, I suppose they could use tracks 3 and 4 for eastbound local and tracks 1 and 2 for westbound local. But then terminating trains would have to stop first on track 2, then go into a siding (if there is one) before stopping again on track 3. I don't think just one terminating track would be enough. There's no space for sidings west of the station although there is a yard east of the station. And since an almost equal number of trains terminates at Nakano from both Tozai line and westbound Chuo local, it will be a big mess of trains crossing in front of others even if sidings on the west were possible. It has been suggested many times that the through running should be done with it, terminating all Tozai line trains at Nakano (using track 3 & 4, I guess) and make all Chuo local run to Mitaka so people make more use of the Chuo local. I remember one other plan where track 6 would be lifted one and a half level above the current tracks and the tracks below some how re-configured. |
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| (456463) | |
Re: Tokyo's Subway (Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity) |
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Posted by E Line Fan on Thu Jul 5 21:32:08 2007, in response to Re: Tokyo (Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity), posted by Wado MP73 on Thu Jul 5 17:04:02 2007. Some lines are 1435mm while other lines are 1067mm. Tokyo Toei uses 1500 VDC overhead supply. The Ginza Line is the original 1927 line. Both Tokyo Metro and Toei have a different fare and a website in Englsh. Speak about complexity! The carriages look nice though. |
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| (456519) | |
Re: Tokyo (Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity) |
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Posted by David Fairthorne on Thu Jul 5 23:36:08 2007, in response to Re: Tokyo (Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity), posted by Wado MP73 on Thu Jul 5 17:04:02 2007. It has been suggested many times that the through running should be done with it, terminating all Tozai line trains at Nakano (using track 3 & 4, I guess) and make all Chuo local run to Mitaka so people make more use of the Chuo local.That seems a much better idea than closing down the Takadanobaba - Nakano end of the Tozai line, which would be a waste. You still wouldn't get cross-platform transfers at Nakano, but at least you wouldn't have to play "guess the platform". I remember one other plan where track 6 would be lifted one and a half level above the current tracks and the tracks below some how re-configured. I suppose that would allow cross-platform transfers between the eastbound Chuo local and Chuo rapid on tracks 5 and 7. |
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Re: Tokyo's Subway (Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity) |
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Posted by David Fairthorne on Fri Jul 6 00:12:59 2007, in response to Re: Tokyo's Subway (Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity), posted by E Line Fan on Thu Jul 5 21:32:08 2007. Speak about complexity!No kidding, especially when you consider also commuter rail, which includes both J. R. East and so-called private railways. The combined network is by far the world's busiest, serving the world's biggest metropolitan area, which happens to be in a nation that makes 40% of the world's passenger rail journeys in spite of having only 2% of the world's population. For a really complex map showing all railways in the Tokyo area, see this pdf file. The official subway map, showing both Toei and Metro, is in this pdf file. You may also be interested in this web site, which shows the subway lines and their characteristics, and also their extensions that share tracks with commuter rail. |
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Re: Tokyo's Subway (Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity) |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Fri Jul 6 07:57:16 2007, in response to Re: Tokyo's Subway (Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity), posted by E Line Fan on Thu Jul 5 21:32:08 2007. One line is 1372mm. Some lines use 20m cars while others use 18m cars and the Ginza uses 16m cars. The Ginza and Marunouchi are the only ones that use third rail. |
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| (456598) | |
Re: Tokyo (Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity) |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Fri Jul 6 08:11:36 2007, in response to Re: Tokyo (Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity), posted by David Fairthorne on Thu Jul 5 23:36:08 2007. I suppose that would allow cross-platform transfers between the eastbound Chuo local and Chuo rapid on tracks 5 and 7.The eastbound Chuo rapid needs two tracks during rush so I don't think that was in the plans. IIRC, they wanted to reconfigure so the Chuo rapid use the outer tracks and the Chuo local the inner tracks between Nakano and Mitaka. Aside for the cost of reconfiguring the tracks at Nakano, I think there was a yard access issue at Mitaka which required new flyovers. Anyway, it didn't happen. |
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Tokyo (Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity) |
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Posted by David Fairthorne on Fri Jul 6 14:39:13 2007, in response to Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity, posted by David Fairthorne on Tue Jul 3 00:19:41 2007. I found no data for the JR Yamanote line.There is some congestion data in this article in the Daily Yomiuri. It says "The congestion rate on a JR Yamanote Line train from Ueno Station to Okachimachi Station was 216 percent," Of course, that's the same stretch of line as the most crowded part of the JR Keihin-Tohoku line from Ueno to Okachimachi (214%). That stretch has four tracks; the outer tracks are used by the Keihin-Tohoku line and the inner tracks are used by the Yamanote line. Taken together, the data suggests that that section of line is the most crowded of all, by a small margin. |
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| (456749) | |
Re: Tokyo (Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity) |
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Posted by David Fairthorne on Fri Jul 6 15:30:54 2007, in response to Re: Tokyo (Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity), posted by Wado MP73 on Fri Jul 6 08:11:36 2007. The eastbound Chuo rapid needs two tracks during rush so I don't think that was in the plans.There are extra tracks through Nakano station itself (not between stations), presumably to allow for long dwell times there on the Chuo rapid line. But I don't see why they need two tracks (7 and 8) eastbound and only one (6) westbound. reconfigure so the Chuo rapid use the outer tracks and the Chuo local the inner tracks between Nakano and Mitaka. Pairing tracks by speed prevents cross-platform transfers. Pairing tracks by direction allows cross-platform transfers. However with pairing by direction it is probably best for the slow tracks to be the inner tracks (as was proposed), because that allows slow trains to make short turns without crossing the fast tracks. Some lines in England (Waterloo main line south of Wimbledon; London Bridge to Croydon) are paired by direction, but with the fast tracks on the inside and platforms only on the outer tracks. I imagine the original reason may have been to allow higher speeds on the fast tracks, which can go in straight lines without having to bulge out to avoid platforms. |
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Re: Capacity of the (L) [Was: Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity] |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Fri Jul 6 17:01:05 2007, in response to Re: Capacity of the (L) [Was: Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity], posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Jun 26 10:24:16 2007. Or, because not enough people are making it through schoolcar that are up to snuff. The MTA isn't about to lower standards to fill positions. |
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Re: Capacity of the (L) [Was: Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity] |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 6 17:04:39 2007, in response to Re: Capacity of the (L) [Was: Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity], posted by AMoreira81 on Fri Jul 6 17:01:05 2007. Or because of not enough money. |
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Re: Capacity of the (L) [Was: Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity] |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Fri Jul 6 18:40:44 2007, in response to Re: Capacity of the (L) [Was: Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity], posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 6 17:04:39 2007. The MTA HAS the money---otherwise they would not be hiring. But there aren't enough qualified applicants...and many simply can't hack it (people who work in RTO can back me up on this). |
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Re: Tokyo (Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity) |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Fri Jul 6 19:22:50 2007, in response to Re: Tokyo (Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity), posted by David Fairthorne on Fri Jul 6 15:30:54 2007. There are extra tracks through Nakano station itself (not between stations), presumably to allow for long dwell times there on the Chuorapid line. But I don't see why they need two tracks (7 and 8) eastbound and only one (6) westbound. They do this eastbound only during morning rush because westbound does never get crowded to that point even during evening rush. When I was using that line everyday (in the reverse direction thank God), they did this eastbound only at Nakano and Shinjuku but now they also do it at Mitaka. Most lines in Japan paired by directions have fast tracks on the inside (like New York). Tobu Isezaki line is one of the few exceptions. |
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Re: Capacity of the (L) [Was: Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity] |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 6 19:32:24 2007, in response to Re: Capacity of the (L) [Was: Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity], posted by AMoreira81 on Fri Jul 6 18:40:44 2007. No. If they had the money, they'd be moving more qualified applicants through the system faster. It is a money issue. Besides, if they had more money, they'd pay better, and thus attract more qualified applicants. |
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Re: Tokyo (Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity) |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Fri Jul 6 20:23:30 2007, in response to Tokyo (Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity), posted by David Fairthorne on Fri Jul 6 14:39:13 2007. IIRC, before Saikyo line started running on the former goods tracks, the most crowded part was Shin-Okubo (really Takatanobaba) to Shinjuku.And the section of Saikyo line that used to be Akabane line (Four station shuttle between Akabane and Ikebukuro) was incredibly bad when they only ran eight car trains there. It was not unusual to see broken door glass because of pressure from the inside of overcrowded humans! I did the commute from Urawa to Shin-Koganei for my last year of high school (via Akabane - Ikebukuro - Shinjuku - Musashi-Sakai). |
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Re: Capacity of the (L) [Was: Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity] |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Fri Jul 6 22:49:39 2007, in response to Re: Capacity of the (L) [Was: Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity], posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 6 19:32:24 2007. Genius---the MTA is already paying well above market rate for ALL MTA employees, based on the pay rates released from the last contract.Out of a pool of 6,000 applicants, the MTA will be lucky to find about 1,000 qualified applicants....and civil service law doesn't allow for faster moving. |
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Re: Tokyo (Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity) |
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Posted by David Fairthorne on Fri Jul 6 23:08:03 2007, in response to Re: Tokyo (Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity), posted by Wado MP73 on Fri Jul 6 20:23:30 2007. It was not unusual to see broken door glass because of pressure from the inside of overcrowded humans!I suppose that would count as over 250% full! I heard that the Saikyo line became notorious for "chikan" (groping), and they recently introduced ladies-only cars. There is an article in Wikipedia explaining the history of the Saikyo line, giving alternative names for parts of it, including the Yamanote freight line. The article points out that crowding should be relieved when the Tokyo Metro Fukutoshin Line (line 13) opens in June 2008. There is also a Wikipedia article on the Metro Fukutoshin Line, which says that the new line will have through running to Hanno on the Seibu Ikebukuro line and to Kawagoe-shi on the Tobu Tojo line. According to that article, "Starting in 2012, the Tokyu Toyoko Line will move to share the line's Shibuya terminus and offer through services on the Minato Mirai Line to Motomachi Chūkagai Station, in Yokohama." I did the commute from Urawa to Shin-Koganei ... via Akabane - Ikebukuro - Shinjuku - Musashi-Sakai. Hyperdia.com says that you took the fastest route, with only three changes, and taking just over one hour. The second best route would have been via Minami-Urawa - Nishi-Kokubunji - Musashi-Sakai, using the JR Musashino (outer circle) Line. |
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| (456993) | |
Re: Tokyo (Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity) |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Jul 7 09:17:05 2007, in response to Re: Tokyo (Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity), posted by David Fairthorne on Fri Jul 6 23:08:03 2007. I heard that the Saikyo line became notorious for "chikan" (groping)Well... A pickpocket haven is usually a haven for those too... The second best route would have been via Minami-Urawa - Nishi-Kokubunji - Musashi-Sakai, using the JR Musashino (outer circle) Line. Back then, the Musashino line ran only every forty minutes outside of rush and every fifteen minutes during morning rush. On the way home, if I missed a connection at Nishi-Kokubunji, I could eat a Ramen bowl at the noodle stand and still have more than half an hour with nothing to do. Besides, for an eighteen-year old, a season ticket that let you get off at Kichijoji, Koenji, Nakano, Shinjuku, Takatanobaba and Ikebukuro was too attractive! |
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Re: Capacity of the (L) [Was: Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity] |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Jul 7 23:12:12 2007, in response to Re: Capacity of the (L) [Was: Re: Some Subways Found Packed Past Capacity], posted by AMoreira81 on Fri Jul 6 22:49:39 2007. How does the law not allow for faster moving? Humor me... |
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