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| (454874) | |
Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by R42 4787 on Mon Jul 2 15:42:47 2007 While most elevated railways were for passenger and transit services, some carried freight. The High Line is a prime example. Were there any other elevated freight railroads in the world other than the High Line, such as in Chicago for example? |
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Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by aem7ac on Mon Jul 2 16:05:22 2007, in response to Elevated freight railroads, posted by R42 4787 on Mon Jul 2 15:42:47 2007. Define 'elevated'Federal grade xing reduction programs in the 60s and 70s put many freight railroads with passenger services on them, including some in Chicago and some in Boston, on semi-elevated alignments. Those tended to be elevated relative to the rest of the terrain, but the roadbed itself is put on an embankment as opposed to a structure (however, structures are liberally used where there are many grade xings within a short distance). Examples: Most of LIRR's Main Line most of the way to Hicksville Most of LIRR's Southern Tier Babylon Line most of the way to Babylon Most of B&M's New Hampshire Main Line as far north as at least Woburn B&M's Western Route Main Line most of the way through center of Haverhill, Mass. While Milwaukee Road's grade separation on the north side of Chicago pre-dates Federal funding of grade xing reductions, the entire 4-track alignment north out of Union Sta is built on elevated for that reason. I believe City of Chicago forced the issue. Today the alignment is not used for freight services but back in the day freight trains would have used the same main line that was elevated on concrete structures over the streets of Chicago. There is a flyover recently constructed mostly with public funds (not all of it federal) in Kansas City which carries the BNSF over the UP. I believe the BNSF is elevated whereas the UP is on the floor. Some of Southern's alignment out of Washington D.C. Union Station is elevated in the vicinity of the Potomac Riverfront. This is a classic 'el' as in a steel structure. A lot of former Pennsylvania RR alignments are elevated for short sections, esp. over junction points. Pennsy built many flying junctions to avoid freight/passenger conflicts. AEM7AC |
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Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by Alan Follett on Mon Jul 2 16:34:39 2007, in response to Elevated freight railroads, posted by R42 4787 on Mon Jul 2 15:42:47 2007. If the question is about freight service sharing transit elevated lines, freight service was operated over the Chicago "L" by CRT and later CTA until 1973, from an interchange with the Milwaukee Road at Buena Yard (south of the Wilson Avenue station) to several customers on the north side main and the Evanston branch. The last freight customer on the line was the Lill coal yard.Of course, many built-up areas have grade-separated main line railways which carried or still cary freight service, if that meets your definition of an elevated freight railroad. These lines are generally solid fills (as is the portion of the CTA referred to above) rather than el-style steel structures. Alan Follett Hercules, CA |
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| (454894) | |
Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by R42 4787 on Mon Jul 2 16:37:17 2007, in response to Re: Elevated freight railroads, posted by Alan Follett on Mon Jul 2 16:34:39 2007. I dodn't CTA had freight service. Must have been Chicago's equivilant of the SBK. |
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Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by WillD on Mon Jul 2 16:45:45 2007, in response to Elevated freight railroads, posted by R42 4787 on Mon Jul 2 15:42:47 2007. There's the West Philadelphia Freight Elevated, more commonly called the "High Line" and predating the NY Central's similarly named West Side elevated. Maps.live.com oblique photo |
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Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by kp5308 on Mon Jul 2 16:50:37 2007, in response to Re: Elevated freight railroads, posted by R42 4787 on Mon Jul 2 16:37:17 2007. I think the CTA situation was a result of MILW either abandoning or giving up by eminent(?) domain a section of Chicago-area trackage that left a section with customers isolated. A deal was struck that had CTA move these cars to the isolated section, with MILW paying CTA a haulage fee.Is this correct? Reading moved lotsa cars down the 9th St. elevated that served Reading Terminal in Philly, some of which served the famous Reading Terminal Market. |
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Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by MCD4x4 on Mon Jul 2 16:58:29 2007, in response to Re: Elevated freight railroads, posted by kp5308 on Mon Jul 2 16:50:37 2007. 1/2 the Staten Island North Shore Line was elevated. |
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| (454922) | |
Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jul 2 17:22:44 2007, in response to Elevated freight railroads, posted by R42 4787 on Mon Jul 2 15:42:47 2007. And what about Chicago pulling freight in subway tunnels?ROAR! |
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Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jul 2 17:29:35 2007, in response to Re: Elevated freight railroads, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jul 2 17:22:44 2007. And remarkably after all these years, the site is STILL lit! (web site, that is)http://users.ameritech.net/chicagotunnel/tunnel1.html |
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Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by Alan Follett on Mon Jul 2 18:24:18 2007, in response to Re: Elevated freight railroads, posted by kp5308 on Mon Jul 2 16:50:37 2007. Yes, that's pretty much correct. The CTA line from Wilson Avenue north was built on the right-of-way of the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul (not then yet "...& Pacific") Evanston Division, initially at grade but later elevated in segments in 1908-1916. When the Northwestern Elevated took over passenger service north of Wilson in 1908, the steam road initially continued to serve freight customers. Beginning in 1920 the "L" took over hauling freight behind its own steeplecabs north of the Buena Yard interchange, though I do seem to recall reading somewhere that the freight cars travelled under Milwaukee Road waybills down to the end of service.Alan Follett |
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| (454958) | |
Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by Sir Ray on Mon Jul 2 18:55:00 2007, in response to Re: Elevated freight railroads, posted by WillD on Mon Jul 2 16:45:45 2007. Speaking of Philly, in the North East there were (at least) two freight branches which were elevated (on embankments - not including the Reading Viaduct) - 2 I know of; one runs from Frankford Ave NE across Roosevelt Blvd to the area of the old Navy Warehouse (OK, some of the line was depressed)http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=qp22428r89qp&style=o&lvl=1&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=7115814&encType=1 And one which branched south alongside B St. heading down to reach industries south of Allegheny Ave. http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=qnzzbj8r5qyt&style=o&lvl=1&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=7117204&encType=1 As mentioned these are mostly fills/embankments, but still are very interesting. Would you count the portion of the Passaic and Harsimus which runs alongside Rte 1 & 9 in Newark, NJ? |
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Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Mon Jul 2 19:02:02 2007, in response to Elevated freight railroads, posted by R42 4787 on Mon Jul 2 15:42:47 2007. What about the lead to the Hell Gate Bridge in Astoria? |
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Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by chuchubob on Mon Jul 2 20:48:38 2007, in response to Re: Elevated freight railroads, posted by WillD on Mon Jul 2 16:45:45 2007. Here are some better photos of the West Philly High Line (better in that they have trains in them):    
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| (455035) | |
Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by Alan Follett on Mon Jul 2 21:39:46 2007, in response to Re: Elevated freight railroads, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jul 2 17:22:44 2007. Well, sorta kinda. The Chicago Tunnel Company was specialist narrow-gauge railway with no track connection either to the national rail network or the city transit system. The original intention was to develop a general freight and parcel business which would keep delivery vehicles off of Loop streets; but in practice for most of its history the bulk of Chicago Tunnel's trade was outgoing, removing ash from downtown heating plants. When coal was supplanted by natural gas or electricity as the heating system of choice, bye-bye Chicago Tunnel. Alan Follett Hercules, CA |
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| (455036) | |
Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Mon Jul 2 21:41:27 2007, in response to Elevated freight railroads, posted by R42 4787 on Mon Jul 2 15:42:47 2007. The elevated ROW that carried the North Shore Line from Mariner's Harbor, through Elm Park and Port Richmond, up to West Brighton in Staten Island carried only freight trains from 1953 to 1990.  |
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Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by TunnelRat on Mon Jul 2 21:52:58 2007, in response to Re: Elevated freight railroads, posted by Sir Ray on Mon Jul 2 18:55:00 2007. The 9th.ave EL in the days of steam operated 5 freights a day from lower manh.docks to its yard at 158st. |
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Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on Mon Jul 2 22:23:01 2007, in response to Re: Elevated freight railroads, posted by chuchubob on Mon Jul 2 20:48:38 2007. Nice!!It was better when the trains were headed with P5a's & GG-1's!!! |
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| (455079) | |
Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Mon Jul 2 22:32:56 2007, in response to Elevated freight railroads, posted by R42 4787 on Mon Jul 2 15:42:47 2007. i seen some of this stuff in ohio / kentucky border areas....near where the reds baseball team plays |
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Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by mellow one on Mon Jul 2 22:55:52 2007, in response to Re: Elevated freight railroads, posted by TunnelRat on Mon Jul 2 21:52:58 2007. Where did you get that information from? |
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Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by mellow one on Mon Jul 2 23:11:12 2007, in response to Elevated freight railroads, posted by R42 4787 on Mon Jul 2 15:42:47 2007. St Louis had an elevated mainline RR along the river.There is a long steel RR viaduct (el) in Richmond, Va. There was an RR El in Havana Cuba. |
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Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by TunnelRat on Mon Jul 2 23:35:48 2007, in response to Re: Elevated freight railroads, posted by mellow one on Mon Jul 2 22:55:52 2007. There`s a book on the 9th.ave EL in the valley stream library,thats where I got this from.I,ve posted this info apx.6 times in the last 2 years. |
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| (455106) | |
Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Tue Jul 3 00:13:26 2007, in response to Re: Elevated freight railroads, posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Mon Jul 2 21:41:27 2007. This amazes me. We got a country joking on bottlenecks and not enough trackage, and they keep tearing everything up! |
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EXPLANATION (Re: Elevated freight railroads) |
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Posted by R42 4787 on Tue Jul 3 00:29:26 2007, in response to Elevated freight railroads, posted by R42 4787 on Mon Jul 2 15:42:47 2007. My original defintion of a "elevated freight railroad" is any elevated freight route that has local customers directly on the elevated viaduct ROW or a transit/interurban elevated line hauling freight on el tracks.Main line freight running on el structures is generally not included. |
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| (455158) | |
Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by Bill West on Tue Jul 3 04:15:00 2007, in response to Elevated freight railroads, posted by R42 4787 on Mon Jul 2 15:42:47 2007. PRR in South Philadelphia along the way from Arsenal to Greenwich yard. Some of the takeoffs to the industries can still be seen in Google Earth, such as at Moore St and South 25th. The Library of Congress has a story on this Elevated here. Search for PA-721.Bill |
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| (455179) | |
Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by mellow one on Tue Jul 3 05:47:48 2007, in response to Re: Elevated freight railroads, posted by TunnelRat on Mon Jul 2 23:35:48 2007. This is from the ERA thumbnail history of the 9th Ave El.Sept 15, 1904 - The US Express Company begins freight service over the 3rd and 9th Ave lines. The distribution point for this unique enterprise was on Morris St, just behind #7 Broadway where the first shops were located for engine repairs. Livestock and LCL (less-than-carload) package freight were carried in the El baggage cars, which made five round trips daily to Uptown points. This service was discontinued shortly before World War I. No railroad freight cars were ever operated on the El. The commencement date of this freight operation was a year after electrification of the line. There is no other reference to freight being carried on the line before this time. |
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| (455218) | |
Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by TunnelRat on Tue Jul 3 07:58:01 2007, in response to Re: Elevated freight railroads, posted by mellow one on Tue Jul 3 05:47:48 2007. What do you consider frieght?the book I referenced said that pianos,fruits&vegtables,etc.were carried.I believe that constitutes frieght.the cars were brought to ground level at the piers&158st.yard via giant elevators. |
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| (455220) | |
Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by TunnelRat on Tue Jul 3 08:02:09 2007, in response to Re: Elevated freight railroads, posted by Bill West on Tue Jul 3 04:15:00 2007. FYI:the lirr used to carry freight via the atlantic ave el[basicly meat] |
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| (455231) | |
Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by mellow one on Tue Jul 3 09:14:59 2007, in response to Re: Elevated freight railroads, posted by TunnelRat on Tue Jul 3 07:58:01 2007. I was not aware of any car elevators at the 158th St Yard. The only one I knew of and I had seen, was the elevator at the Bronx Park Terminal. That elevator was used to lower cars to ground level storage under the terminal. The building remained for many years after the terminal stub was demolished. There were many ground level tracks at the 158th St yard. However, I believe that there was a ramp to those tracks. |
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| (455237) | |
Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jul 3 09:25:05 2007, in response to Re: Elevated freight railroads, posted by TunnelRat on Tue Jul 3 08:02:09 2007. How 'bout that? They STILL do! (grin) |
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| (455266) | |
Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Tue Jul 3 10:24:39 2007, in response to Re: Elevated freight railroads, posted by aem7ac on Mon Jul 2 16:05:22 2007. Some of Southern's alignment out of Washington D.C. Union Station is elevated in the vicinity of the Potomac Riverfront. This is a classic 'el' as in a steel structure.That steel structure is a bridge that is between retained fills on either side of Maine Avenue SW that are part of the north approach to the bridge that crosses the Potomac River. The alignment from east of South Capitol Street to west of 7th Street SW is on a retained fill. There use to be a connection on the north side of the retained fill west of 6th Street that served cold storage warehouse between 4th and 6th Streets SW. A bridge similar the bridges that cross Maine Avenue crossed 6th Street entering the second floor of the building. The present configuration of the railroad alignment through Washington DC was built near the beginning of the last century as part of the Union Station construction project. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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| (455327) | |
Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by Red Line to Glenmont on Tue Jul 3 12:13:18 2007, in response to Re: Elevated freight railroads, posted by Sand Box John on Tue Jul 3 10:24:39 2007. I would say some of the tracks running out of 30th St. in Philadelphia are elevated tracks for a bit, like the section that passes by the Post Office at Drexel Univ. The Manayunk section of the Passenger Regional Rail line to Norristown may not carry freight but it is a relocated elevated line over an street in Philadelphia, that for all the world looks like McDonald Avenue. And all that steel and darkness for a one-hour headway. |
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Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by TunnelRat on Tue Jul 3 13:18:26 2007, in response to Re: Elevated freight railroads, posted by mellow one on Tue Jul 3 09:14:59 2007. I just re-read the page[129 in robert c.reeds book:the manh.elevateds:]it doesn`t say if steam was used to transport the freight,but its a safe bet it was.The manh.terminal had a special spur built onto the pier where elevators were used to take the cars up&down.It also references the 3rd.ave ELS 129st.yard as having elevators,no mention of 159st.yard having the same.Only a few lines are dedicated to this unique operation. |
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| (455350) | |
Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by TunnelRat on Tue Jul 3 13:23:49 2007, in response to Re: Elevated freight railroads, posted by mellow one on Tue Jul 3 05:47:48 2007. The book states that 39 greenwich was the pier this started from.was this the engine shops? |
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| (455367) | |
Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by mellow one on Tue Jul 3 15:13:16 2007, in response to Re: Elevated freight railroads, posted by TunnelRat on Tue Jul 3 13:23:49 2007. 39 Greenwich St was/is at the SE corner of Morris St. That would have been where the original yard and repair was. You may have seen a stereoview of the yard area. The Hudson River Piers are on West St. Washington St is between West and Greenwich. Broadway and Bowling Green is the next block east from Greenwich. The The New York Elevated Railroad Company offices were located at #7 Broadway, the back door of which opened to the yard and shop. It appears that the author of your book either got his notes and dates and geography mixed up or he did not edit his proof well enough or both.I have been attempting to document the early history of the El with with pictures of places like #39 Greenwich St. The early history of the 9th Ave El is fading into lore. If you happen to have or have access to an image of Mr. Charles T. Harvey demonstrating the use of the line by riding on a (cable) car truck on Dec 7, 1867, note the address on the building below the truck, it is #39 Greenwich St. |
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Re: Elevated freight railroads |
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Posted by Jace on Tue Jul 3 15:27:04 2007, in response to Re: Elevated freight railroads, posted by Red Line to Glenmont on Tue Jul 3 12:13:18 2007. There may not be freight on the Manyunk line now, but there definitely used to be when it was run by the Reading. If nothing else, there is still a long out of service coal dock spur (but no more switch) on the 'el' itself just east of the Manyunk station. |
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