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| (390870) | |
Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by TonyBroadway on Wed Feb 21 03:58:57 2007 On Joe Koerner's website, he has a reprint of a 1915 BMT Dual Contracts pamphlet announcing the "new" Sea Beach route-it started from Chambers St. in Manhattan, and the next 2 stops were Gold St. and DeKalb Ave in Brooklyn. What is Gold St.? The earliest BMT map I could find is the 1924 BMT map reprint at nycsubway.org, and it doesn't list a Gold St., but the only stop between Chambers and DeKalb is the old abandoned Myrtle Ave. station-is Gold St. the original name of Myrtle Ave.? |
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| (390871) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by TheCanarsieConnection on Wed Feb 21 04:04:52 2007, in response to Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by TonyBroadway on Wed Feb 21 03:58:57 2007. I know there is a small street in Dwntwn Brooklytn named Gold St, and Myrtle Ave has always been Myrtle Ave! |
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| (390876) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Wed Feb 21 05:47:49 2007, in response to Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by TonyBroadway on Wed Feb 21 03:58:57 2007. Gold Street begins right at the corner of Myrtle and Flatbush so they could have used either name. |
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| (390882) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Wed Feb 21 06:57:33 2007, in response to Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by TonyBroadway on Wed Feb 21 03:58:57 2007. Gold St. is the original name of the Myrtle Ave. station. At an ERA meeting many years ago, they projected a picture on the screen of the new station with the name Gold Street on the pillars.Bill "Newkirk" |
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| (390887) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 21 07:22:16 2007, in response to Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by Newkirk Images on Wed Feb 21 06:57:33 2007. Gold Street:
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| (390889) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Feb 21 07:31:44 2007, in response to Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 21 07:22:16 2007. Here too:
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| (390910) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Wed Feb 21 09:46:00 2007, in response to Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by Jeff Rosen on Wed Feb 21 05:47:49 2007. In a way, it would have been better to call it Gold Street. Then the end of the Myrtle Av El could have been rebuilt to replace Bridge Street station with Gold Street and Jay Street stations, giving one name for the entire complex at each location. |
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| (390958) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Feb 21 10:52:29 2007, in response to Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by TonyBroadway on Wed Feb 21 03:58:57 2007. As Bill N said, Myrtle Avenue station was originally called Gold Street. I believe they changed it to Myrtle as the better known name. The interlocking there is still called Gold Street interlocking, however. |
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| (390960) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by error46146 on Wed Feb 21 10:56:57 2007, in response to Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by TonyBroadway on Wed Feb 21 03:58:57 2007. They should have kept calling it Gold Street. That sounds better than Myrtle Avenue |
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| (390964) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Feb 21 11:02:22 2007, in response to Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by error46146 on Wed Feb 21 10:56:57 2007. I also think it was a mistake to change it to Myrtle Avenue. It implies that you could transfer to the Myrt there, but you couldn't. |
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| (390981) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by Eric B on Wed Feb 21 11:43:11 2007, in response to Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by TonyBroadway on Wed Feb 21 03:58:57 2007. That's the name of the interlocking, as others have said, and it's still used on timetables. (So if you used a Sea Beach (N) timetable today, you would still see "Gold St." between Pacific or Dekalb and Canal. |
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| (390983) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Feb 21 11:50:43 2007, in response to Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by SLRT on Wed Feb 21 11:02:22 2007. I'm surprised some connection wasn't made here after the trains were removed from the Brooklyn Bridge in 1944. |
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| (391010) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 21 14:10:47 2007, in response to Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by TonyBroadway on Wed Feb 21 03:58:57 2007. Doea anyone know what year they changed the name of the station? I guess they redid the tilework to reflect the change. |
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| (391024) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 21 15:07:36 2007, in response to Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by SLRT on Wed Feb 21 11:02:22 2007. What did the tiles look like when it was "Myrtle Ave". Obviously, the original part of the station had mosaic "Gold St" tablets, as seen in the photo I posted in this thread. Did extensions have "Myrtle"? Did they gouge out the Gold St mosaics and replace them with "Myrtle Ave"? If it was done early on, they may have spent the money on that.Or did they just throw up signs over the Gold St mosaics? |
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| (391079) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by RedbirdR33 on Wed Feb 21 17:45:01 2007, in response to Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 21 14:10:47 2007. Doea anyone know what year they changed the name of the station? I guess they redid the tilework to reflect the change.The original plans called for a station named "Tillary-Johnson Streets" and it was located between those two streets. By 1910 the location for the station had been moved a block south to the intersection of Myrtle Avenue and Gold Street. It was planned to call this station Gold Street to avoid confusion with the Myrtle Avenue EL. For whatever reason the station was renamed "Myrtle Avenue" in 1916 although it retained its gold trim. So for the first year or so that the 4 Avenue Subway was open Myrtle Avenue Station was known as Gold Street. Today on the northbound platform survives. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (391087) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Wed Feb 21 17:58:09 2007, in response to Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 21 15:07:36 2007. They had the same "Globes" pattern as De Kalb/Pacific/ and others. There was the "Myrtle Ave" tablet as well, superimposed on the tile band. "Globes" alternated with the tablets. I could make out the pattern but not the colors; it was too dark.wayne |
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| (391132) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Wed Feb 21 19:50:08 2007, in response to Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 21 07:22:16 2007. That's the photo shown at the slide show.Bill "Newkirk" |
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| (391135) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 21 19:54:54 2007, in response to Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by RedbirdR33 on Wed Feb 21 17:45:01 2007. Thanks for the info. For some reason, I think I remember the name Myrtle Avenue being cream letters on a maroon background, but I could be wrong. |
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| (391205) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 21 22:17:54 2007, in response to Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by Newkirk Images on Wed Feb 21 19:50:08 2007. A subtalker emailed me that photo some years ago. It looks like he may have scanned it from some book, I don't know where he got it from. The slide you saw was probably used for whatever book he scanned this from. |
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| (391207) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 21 22:19:00 2007, in response to Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Wed Feb 21 17:58:09 2007. Wayne, so it sounds like the gouged out the "Gold St" tablets, and replaced them with "Myrtle Ave" tablets? |
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| (391231) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by wzlirr on Wed Feb 21 23:37:39 2007, in response to Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 21 22:19:00 2007. Is there any way to verify this fact? I agree, does anyone else find it surprising that the BMT would gouge out the "GOLD STREET" tile and re-set it as Myrtle Ave. |
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| (391234) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by BMTLines on Wed Feb 21 23:48:05 2007, in response to Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by wzlirr on Wed Feb 21 23:37:39 2007. Its not surprising - today they would just cover it over with a tin sign but in those days they did it the right way!!! |
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| (391332) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Feb 22 08:57:34 2007, in response to Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Feb 21 11:50:43 2007. One of the better unanswered questions in NYC subway lore. |
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| (391554) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 22 17:35:57 2007, in response to Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by RedbirdR33 on Wed Feb 21 17:45:01 2007. When I read the now out of print book "New Subways for New York" which is a compilation of some NYS PSC reports from the 1913- 1917 era, I got the impression that the station name was changed from Gold St to Myrtle Av before it was opened to the public. What is clear is the stated reason for the change. It was felt at the time that Myrtle Av was a more easily indentifiable location than Gold St and since the station entrances were so close to Myrtle Av, the decision was made to call the station Myrtle Av. Although the field personnel always referred to both the old and new interlockings as "Gold St," the model boards in both the original Gold St tower and the new DeKalb master tower refer to the area as "Myrtle Av Interlocking." As for the lack of a connection to the Myrtle Av El, when the Fulton St El was being partially third tracked in the late teens, it was the intention of the BRT to remove all el trains from the Bkln Br. While the Fulton St as rebuilt for 10 ft wide steel cars would have been able to enter the subway via the Ashland Pl connection, the unmodified Myrtle and Lex Lines could not. The BRT therefore proposed truncating the Myrtle Av El at a new station at Flatbush Av Ext and constructing new staircases directly into the Myrtle Av station in order to provide a convenient transfer to the subway for Myrtle Av El passengers. Unfortunately, the remainder of the Fulton St El was not modified for steel cars as intended and its inability to feed dirctly into midtown Manhattan coupled with Mayor Hylan's anti BRT/BMT vedetta and subsequent IND subway construction resulted in the Fulton El's ultimate demise.As a sort of aside, back when I was 11 years old, my father and I went for a ride on the Myrtle Av el and although he was born in Bkln, he was under the mistaken impression that there was a transfer available from the BMT 4 Av Subway to the Myrtle El. We detrained at Myrtle Av S/B only to find that no connection was available thus we had to go S/B to Dekalb and get a train back over the Manny B to Canal St where we took a Jamaica Lcl to Bway/Myrtle where the transfer was available. Although I have been on the now demolished S/B platform at Myrtle/Gold St, I have yet to set foot on the N/B platfom which still exists. |
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| (391595) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Feb 22 19:21:19 2007, in response to Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by BMTLines on Wed Feb 21 23:48:05 2007. The original Gold Street tiles are in 76th Street.OMG, why did I write that? Ignore it, ignore it. |
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| (391620) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 22 19:50:35 2007, in response to Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by wzlirr on Wed Feb 21 23:37:39 2007. Fact? I never said it was a fact, I was asking if that's what they did.If the name change was early on though, it would not be surprising if they gouged out the tiles, and reset them as Myrtle. I have seen 1920's maps, and the station was called Myrtle Ave already, so it was early on. |
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| (391623) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 22 19:53:00 2007, in response to Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by randyo on Thu Feb 22 17:35:57 2007. Isn't it strange though that a Gold St photo is available, and it's obvious that the station name changed very early on to Myrtle Ave (and perhaps before it was open as you said), but I have YET to see any photo showing the station where the station mosaics are available, and the station was open for decades. |
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| (391624) | |
Gold Interlocking Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Thu Feb 22 19:54:19 2007, in response to Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by SLRT on Wed Feb 21 10:52:29 2007. About Gold Interlocking, I get a feeling it was built on the cheap when it was built. Why else wouldn't the Q-types be able to go through it? They should have made the tunnel ceilings higher to permit the passage of the old Q-types (which also includes the Gate cars in the Transit Museum).My 2 cents. |
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| (391659) | |
Re: Gold Interlocking Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Feb 22 20:33:38 2007, in response to Gold Interlocking Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Thu Feb 22 19:54:19 2007. No, the entire Flatbush Ave extension subway was SOTA for subway construction at the time. I believe they used re-inforced concrete as opposed to steel columns for structural support. It has been re-configured over the years, particularly in the late 1950's. I also believe it was originally built with clearances high enough for el cars to traverse thru it. |
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| (391661) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Feb 22 20:38:02 2007, in response to Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 22 19:53:00 2007. This station never seemed to be that important, given how so many trains bypassed it. |
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| (391670) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 22 20:47:41 2007, in response to Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Feb 22 20:38:02 2007. Agreed....but what I am saying is that a "Gold St" photo is available and it was open only for a sneeze....it was Myrtle so much longer, yet no photo anywhere. |
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| (391672) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Thu Feb 22 20:51:23 2007, in response to Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 21 07:22:16 2007. Man, you guys are good! |
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| (391676) | |
Re: Gold Interlocking Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by BMTLines on Thu Feb 22 21:01:23 2007, in response to Re: Gold Interlocking Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Feb 22 20:33:38 2007. Also IIRC the trucks on the gate cars and Q's are not original - the cars may have been able to pass through lower clearances on their original trucks. |
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| (391717) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Feb 22 22:21:33 2007, in response to Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 22 20:47:41 2007. I do not think it was *ever* open as "Gold Street."It was built as Gold Street, but the name was changed *before* the line ever went into service. ROAR |
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| (391747) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Feb 22 23:05:09 2007, in response to Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Feb 22 22:21:33 2007. I do not think it was *ever* open as "Gold Street."This post disagrees. |
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| (391871) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 23 08:06:44 2007, in response to Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by BMTLines on Wed Feb 21 23:48:05 2007. Huh? In the 60's, 70's, 80's, and even the 50's that's what they would have done....but today? Have you seen the beautiful reproductions of mosaics (and new mosaics such as Essex, etc) they have done?But that being said...since this Myrtle change took place in the 1910's already, it is highly likely they gouged out the mosaics and reset them. But wow, "what they do today is just cover it over with a metal sign"? Have you ridden the subway since 1990? |
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| (391872) | |
76th Steet Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 23 08:08:21 2007, in response to Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by SLRT on Thu Feb 22 19:21:19 2007. Hahaha, it's been a few months since this topic came up..... lol. |
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| (391898) | |
Re: 76th Steet Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Feb 23 09:05:47 2007, in response to 76th Steet Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 23 08:08:21 2007. Deja vu all over again. |
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| (391918) | |
Re: Gold Interlocking Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Feb 23 10:01:38 2007, in response to Re: Gold Interlocking Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by BMTLines on Thu Feb 22 21:01:23 2007. That sounds correct. Otherwise they wouldn't have had to chop the roofs on the Qs. |
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| (391922) | |
Re: 76th Steet Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by SLRT on Fri Feb 23 10:08:22 2007, in response to 76th Steet Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 23 08:08:21 2007. Well, you know the popular theory that wrist watches and socks lost in the dryer end up on the moon or Mars. But we know where they really go, don't we? |
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| (391980) | |
Re: Gold Interlocking Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by SLRT on Fri Feb 23 12:23:38 2007, in response to Re: Gold Interlocking Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Feb 23 10:01:38 2007. The H tracks and 4th Avenue Line were high enough for elevated car roofs, otherwise Eastern Division equipment could not have gotten to the Southern Division post-1940.If the DeKalb-Gold Street area doesn't have sufficient clearance now, it must have had to do with deKalb reconstruction. |
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| (391981) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by SLRT on Fri Feb 23 12:31:08 2007, in response to Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 23 08:06:44 2007. I never cease to marvel at the beautiful restoration work (and beyond!) being done now. The post-World War II era was dismal in terms of appreciation for public art. I hope those days and attitudes never return. |
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| (391982) | |
Re: 76th Steet Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by Tunnel Rat on Fri Feb 23 12:34:05 2007, in response to Re: 76th Steet Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by SLRT on Fri Feb 23 10:08:22 2007. Hoboken? |
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| (391988) | |
Re: Gold Interlocking Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by GIS Man on Fri Feb 23 13:02:14 2007, in response to Re: Gold Interlocking Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by SLRT on Fri Feb 23 12:23:38 2007. Anything built after 1918 would not have had to take the dimensions of Q-cars or gate cars into account, as wooden cars were disallowed in tunnels following the Malbone St. wreck.Bob P.S. If I'm correct about the prohibition of wooden cars in tunnels after 1918, what DID run on the 9th Av. El above 155th St between then and the 1950's? Bob |
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| (391989) | |
Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by GIS Man on Fri Feb 23 13:04:00 2007, in response to Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by SLRT on Thu Feb 22 19:21:19 2007. 76th St - AAARRRGGGH!Bob |
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| (391995) | |
Re: Gold Interlocking Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by SLRT on Fri Feb 23 13:24:50 2007, in response to Re: Gold Interlocking Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by GIS Man on Fri Feb 23 13:02:14 2007. Anything built after 1918 would not have had to take the dimensions of Q-cars or gate cars into account, as wooden cars were disallowed in tunnels following the Malbone St. wreck.Not so. Wooden cars operated through tunnels until 1928 WITH PASSENGERS, including through the notorious Malbone Street Tunnel. After 1928 wooden cars continued to operate through tunnels but protocol (not law) specified that they not carry passengers. After 1940, when the all-elevated connection between the Eastern and Southern Divisions were severed, BUs had to operate through tunnels in order to transfer between BMT Divisions and did so regularly. Wooden cars operated on the Culver (along side Steels) until 1954. And, of course, the museum BUs still run through tunnels whenever needed. |
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| (391996) | |
Re: 76th Steet Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by SLRT on Fri Feb 23 13:26:40 2007, in response to Re: 76th Steet Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by Tunnel Rat on Fri Feb 23 12:34:05 2007. *Cough* |
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| (391998) | |
Re: Gold Interlocking Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Feb 23 13:33:46 2007, in response to Re: Gold Interlocking Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by SLRT on Fri Feb 23 13:24:50 2007. Malbone street is hardly a "Tunnel" Rather it is an underpass.ROAR |
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| (392053) | |
Re: 76th Steet Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by monorail on Fri Feb 23 15:40:10 2007, in response to Re: 76th Steet Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by Tunnel Rat on Fri Feb 23 12:34:05 2007. Hoboken???OOOOO. I'm Dyyyyyyinnnn!!!!!! |
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| (392088) | |
Re: Gold Interlocking Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.? |
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Posted by SLRT on Fri Feb 23 16:07:44 2007, in response to Re: Gold Interlocking Re: Original Sea Beach Route-What Is Gold St.?, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Feb 23 13:33:46 2007. Structurally, it is as much a tunnel as any other dual contract cut-and-cover facility, albeit a short one. Beverley Road and Cortelyou Road are underpasses.And BUs operated in passengers service in the Centre Street Loop as late as 1928. That's quite a bit more tunnel. |
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