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| Scrap pecking order with R44-SI (305451) | |
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| (305452) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI |
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Posted by joe c on Sat Sep 2 15:57:42 2006, in response to Scrap pecking order with R44-SI, posted by Joe V on Sat Sep 2 15:44:05 2006. I don't think the R68 are going to SIRT.til next time |
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| (305466) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Sep 2 16:32:50 2006, in response to Scrap pecking order with R44-SI, posted by Joe V on Sat Sep 2 15:44:05 2006. Start flaming me now because I would like to see the line become light rail so Staten Islanders can start paying for their rides to and from intermediate points. Last time I rode there, lots of people got a free ride. Passengers at intermediate stations can enter thru the front door by the operator and deposit fare or swipe MetroCard in the farebox. Outbound you pay as you enter and inbound you pay when you leave, just like some Philadelphia area lines. Passengers to/from St. George continue to pay there. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (305470) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI |
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Posted by Fred G on Sat Sep 2 16:36:21 2006, in response to Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Sep 2 16:32:50 2006. If you want me to flame you, at least post something I disagree with.your pal, Fred |
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| (305481) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Sep 2 16:57:08 2006, in response to Scrap pecking order with R44-SI, posted by Joe V on Sat Sep 2 15:44:05 2006. My guess (uneducated I admit) would be that the cars that will follow the R44s on Staten Island do not exist yet. A small # of new cars will end up going there. Apparently the side-signs would be the only source of train information (express or local, Great Kills or Tottenville) because the front sign can only hold a letter or number (giving each varying service an unused letter may work even though it is a railroad and not a subway). |
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| (305486) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI |
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Posted by P-rad M on Sat Sep 2 16:59:36 2006, in response to Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Sep 2 16:57:08 2006. Or if the train is going to the stadium over there for the Staten Island Yankees.P-rad M |
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| (305499) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Sep 2 17:04:56 2006, in response to Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI, posted by P-rad M on Sat Sep 2 16:59:36 2006. This is true. I think they should just send some 4-car sets of R160s over and program side-signage with the front sign off, like the M-7s on the LIRR. |
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| (305507) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI |
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Posted by P-rad M on Sat Sep 2 17:12:29 2006, in response to Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Sep 2 17:04:56 2006. They can do that also. They can put a lead distination sign like the PATH has on a few of their PA-4's, some of you may have seen this pic already.PATH PA-4 car #869.  P-rad M |
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| (305515) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI (Roll signs on front) |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Sep 2 17:25:11 2006, in response to Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI, posted by P-rad M on Sat Sep 2 17:12:29 2006. That's an idea. It would have to spell more than 1 or 3 characters because of expresses, locals, and 4 possible destinations (Tottenville, St. George, Stadium, and Great Kills). The current way of designating is with circles and 1-2 lines of text. Does anyone have a complete listing of those by chance? There are also color variations to the circle I believe? |
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| (305517) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI |
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Posted by J trainloco on Sat Sep 2 17:26:16 2006, in response to Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Sep 2 17:04:56 2006. Really? Why should they do that? |
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| (305522) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Sep 2 17:31:22 2006, in response to Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI, posted by J trainloco on Sat Sep 2 17:26:16 2006. It's an idea for when the R44s go (not too far off I believe). I'm sure there are other ways to handle it. I just don't think they'd order a separate type of car for SIR. We don't know where we're going beyond the R160 of course. |
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| (305530) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI |
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Posted by J trainloco on Sat Sep 2 17:36:46 2006, in response to Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Sep 2 17:31:22 2006. Well, the MTA will have to replace the R46 sometime before 2020. The car doing so wil not be an R160. Maybe that will be when SIR gets a new fleet.If the MTA wanted to replace SIR R44 right now, there would be a plan to do so. When SIR R44 arrived, MOST of them were ordered specifically for SIR. Similarly, when the next order arrives, most of those cars will be ordered specifically for SIR. |
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| (305544) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Sep 2 17:53:20 2006, in response to Scrap pecking order with R44-SI, posted by Joe V on Sat Sep 2 15:44:05 2006. The MTA had a piece in the Advance sometime ago...stating that they WOULD invest in Staten Island sometime in the future..but didn't state whether they would place the new subway cars in service there as they arrived..AT THIS TIME.So its basically what they AREN'T SAYING..that telling you what they are GOING to do.. No new cars for Staten Island at this time..but the option remains open in the future. |
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| (305548) | |
Intermediate Station Fare Payment on SIRT (was:Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI) |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Sep 2 18:01:38 2006, in response to Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Sep 2 16:32:50 2006. YES! Intitute intermediate point fare payment on SIRT! However, the SEPTA Rt100's payment structure which you mentioned, with the operator collecting fare from passengers entering or exiting through just one door, would likely be almost unworkable, especially at peak hours. Instead a proof of payment system would allow intermediate point fare payment to be instituted on the SIRT without a change in rolling stock or the need to rearrange station platforms. Installing a subway-like barrier fare control arrangement would require a manned booth to accomodate passengers, which at most stations would be an insane waste of manpower. With proof of payment all that'd be required is maybe one or two MVMs per station, and a few smaller TVM-like devices to print out time and date stamped tickets while subtracting fares from PPR metrocards or checking if unlimited Metrocards were valid. These small printed tickets would be checked by POP enforcement officers to ensure people riding between stations are paying their fare. It might be possible that the barrier fare control at St. George could be retained to ensure the predominent peak hour flow pays their fare. The POP tickets could be encoded with a magnetic strip to pass through that faregate headed from SIRT to the ferry, and in the opposite direction a swipe of a metrocard could both unlock the turnstile and print out a ticket for their trip home. |
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| (305549) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI |
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Posted by Dan on Sat Sep 2 18:04:18 2006, in response to Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI, posted by Edwards! on Sat Sep 2 17:53:20 2006. SIR spokesperson said new cars possible around 2011. Nothing more specific than that. |
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| (305578) | |
Re: Broadway Brooklyn Train Lengths 1960's-70's |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Sep 2 19:09:56 2006, in response to Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI, posted by P-rad M on Sat Sep 2 17:12:29 2006. I suppose they could put skirts on the PA4's when PATH gets rid of them, but that would only do in most of the R44's, not all of them. PATH would probably retain a dozen or so of the 96 for work trains.Maybe they're thinking of long, fat PA4's for SI if they're thinking of the 2011 timeframe. They will be single units. |
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| (305593) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI |
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Posted by Christopher Rivera on Sat Sep 2 19:48:55 2006, in response to Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Sep 2 16:57:08 2006. I say scrape the platforms a bit, and make order 92 M7s and have the M7 operate on the SIR. Modify the cars with subway seats. That way you can run 20 trains (each 4 cars, 320 ft each) with 3 trains available for service. I do not know what the maximum capacity of the SIR is but the extra cars could be use if any expansion of service occurs. |
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| (305598) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI |
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Posted by R4 Bryn Mawr LCL/R5 Paoli EXP on Sat Sep 2 19:54:59 2006, in response to Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI, posted by Christopher Rivera on Sat Sep 2 19:48:55 2006. Only if they're willing to accept a commuter rail fare structure. |
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| (305603) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI (Roll signs on front) |
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Posted by P-rad M on Sat Sep 2 20:11:35 2006, in response to Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI (Roll signs on front), posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Sep 2 17:25:11 2006. No, it doesn't only spell three letters, its just short for World Trade Center. I think the most letters it can fit 10 or 12 letters.P-rad M |
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| (305607) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI (Roll signs on front) |
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Posted by R4 Bryn Mawr LCL/R5 Paoli EXP on Sat Sep 2 20:22:11 2006, in response to Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI (Roll signs on front), posted by P-rad M on Sat Sep 2 20:11:35 2006. Does it say "JOURNAL SQ" (10 letters) or "JSQ"? |
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| (305612) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI (Roll signs on front) |
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Posted by P-rad M on Sat Sep 2 20:30:19 2006, in response to Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI (Roll signs on front), posted by R4 Bryn Mawr LCL/R5 Paoli EXP on Sat Sep 2 20:22:11 2006. Journal Sq, but the longest I saw was Exchange Pl when the station was reopened for service in 2003, so basically we know it could fit 11, probably even 12. But they changed it back to its original spot it had, I believe it was WTC or Express it took so you won't see it again unless the WTC is bombed.P-rad M |
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| (305627) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI |
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Posted by tydev417 on Sat Sep 2 21:39:31 2006, in response to Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI, posted by Dan on Sat Sep 2 18:04:18 2006. Yep, that's what I've been frequently posting too. The R44s out here are running fairly well and will be replaced by or after 2011. And no R68s, M7s or whatever has been speculated will not be sent over, it was stated that a new fleet would be ordered. |
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| (305630) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Sep 2 21:50:52 2006, in response to Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI, posted by tydev417 on Sat Sep 2 21:39:31 2006. Replaced by 2011..Humm..the 44s are suppose to be gone by 2008[after 35 years of service],at least the NYCT version of them. Most likely the new cars will be an attachment on the R160 car order...from the sound of it. |
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| (305667) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Sep 2 23:24:06 2006, in response to Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI, posted by Christopher Rivera on Sat Sep 2 19:48:55 2006. You probably don't need to scrape the platforms... |
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| (305678) | |
PATH LED front signs (Was: Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI (Roll signs on front)) |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Sep 2 23:57:08 2006, in response to Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI (Roll signs on front), posted by R4 Bryn Mawr LCL/R5 Paoli EXP on Sat Sep 2 20:22:11 2006. Ask and ye shall receive:
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| (305689) | |
Re: PATH LED front signs (Was: Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI (Roll signs on front)) |
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Posted by R4 Bryn Mawr LCL/R5 Paoli EXP on Sun Sep 3 00:20:22 2006, in response to PATH LED front signs (Was: Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI (Roll signs on front)), posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Sep 2 23:57:08 2006. But you can't read it..."JSQ via 33rd" "NWK via 33rd"? WTF??? |
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| (305692) | |
Re: PATH LED front signs (Was: Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI (Roll signs on front)) |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Sun Sep 3 00:28:19 2006, in response to Re: PATH LED front signs (Was: Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI (Roll signs on front)), posted by R4 Bryn Mawr LCL/R5 Paoli EXP on Sun Sep 3 00:20:22 2006. Makes sense to me... |
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| (305693) | |
Re: PATH LED front signs (Was: Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI (Roll signs on front)) |
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Posted by P-rad M on Sun Sep 3 00:29:12 2006, in response to Re: PATH LED front signs (Was: Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI (Roll signs on front)), posted by R4 Bryn Mawr LCL/R5 Paoli EXP on Sun Sep 3 00:20:22 2006. Thats if the train was departing WTC or Hoboken. Thats what I guess would happen. But the NWK via 33rd, thats going to do the whole system.P-rad M |
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| (305711) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Sun Sep 3 01:32:06 2006, in response to Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI, posted by Christopher Rivera on Sat Sep 2 19:48:55 2006. No M7s. Just order a hybrid commuter/LRV-type vehicle like SEPTA's N5 cars on the Route 100, with on-board fare collection, and you're set. |
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| (305720) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Sep 3 02:24:10 2006, in response to Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI, posted by The Port of Authority on Sun Sep 3 01:32:06 2006. Why do onboard fare collection with a new car? NYCTA could do POP now on the existing R44 cars and solve their problems. It wouldn't require the excessively long station dwell times for fare payment, and it'd accomodate peak hour crowds far better than any onboard fare control could ever do. All that would be needed is an MVM at the stations and another small TVM like device to print out the timestamped ticket for the POP enforcement officers. |
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| (305721) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Sun Sep 3 02:26:20 2006, in response to Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI, posted by Edwards! on Sat Sep 2 21:50:52 2006. Humm..the 44s are suppose to be gone by 2008[after 35 years of service],at least the NYCT version of them.According to TD the R44s on the NY subway are supposed to last another 5-6 years at the least. Pitkin has been doing a good job on those cars. :) |
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| (305749) | |
Bad Subject above |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Sep 3 07:08:47 2006, in response to Re: Broadway Brooklyn Train Lengths 1960's-70's, posted by Joe V on Sat Sep 2 19:09:56 2006. Netscape 7.1 just won't get rid of that title from loading for over 2 years now. I have to do it manually every time |
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| (305754) | |
Re: Intermediate Station Fare Payment on SIRT (was:Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI) |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Sep 3 07:51:09 2006, in response to Intermediate Station Fare Payment on SIRT (was:Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI), posted by WillD on Sat Sep 2 18:01:38 2006. What was the old plan of collecting intermediate fare? |
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| (305757) | |
Re: Bad Subject above |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Sep 3 07:58:20 2006, in response to Bad Subject above, posted by Joe V on Sun Sep 3 07:08:47 2006. Change your privacy settings.I have been using Firefox for so long that I forgot which settings in Netscrape you need to change, but ask it not to remember replies and passwords or something like that and your issue will clear up. |
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| (305758) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Sun Sep 3 07:58:57 2006, in response to Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI, posted by WillD on Sun Sep 3 02:24:10 2006. Who wants paper tickets? Use MetroCard. |
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| (305760) | |
Re: Intermediate Station Fare Payment on SIRT (was:Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI) |
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Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Sun Sep 3 08:41:30 2006, in response to Re: Intermediate Station Fare Payment on SIRT (was:Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI), posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Sep 3 07:51:09 2006. Conductors, tickets the usual deal. |
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| (305781) | |
Re: Intermediate Station Fare Payment on SIRT (was:Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI) |
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Posted by tydev417 on Sun Sep 3 10:16:06 2006, in response to Intermediate Station Fare Payment on SIRT (was:Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI), posted by WillD on Sat Sep 2 18:01:38 2006. No POP payment, no paper tickets or whatever.. The MTA already has a system-wide Metrocard system so it would only be logical to use that and ridership on the SIR won't make up for the amount of money it would cost to rearrange station platforms, implement MVMs, install turnstiles and booths at some stations. |
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| (305783) | |
Re: Intermediate Station Fare Payment on SIRT (was:Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI) |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Sun Sep 3 10:23:12 2006, in response to Re: Intermediate Station Fare Payment on SIRT (was:Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI), posted by tydev417 on Sun Sep 3 10:16:06 2006. What's the problem with MetroCard-based POP? |
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| (305784) | |
Re: Intermediate Station Fare Payment on SIRT (was:Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI) |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Sun Sep 3 10:30:50 2006, in response to Re: Intermediate Station Fare Payment on SIRT (was:Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI), posted by tydev417 on Sun Sep 3 10:16:06 2006. Well, you get what you pay for. If SI residents don't want to pay for their service, then the cars should be transferred back to the NYCTA Subways. |
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| (305786) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Sun Sep 3 10:36:27 2006, in response to Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI, posted by Christopher Rivera on Sat Sep 2 19:48:55 2006. You don't need 92 M7 cars. Just order 18 pairs and 36 single cars (for 48 85-foot cars and a maximum of 18 trains, 2 for possible service increases). However, this would be only because the fleet is aging. However, if it were me, I would have onboard MVMs and TVMs on whatever equipment runs on the line. Unlike NYC Transit, SIR could certainly stand the loss of 4 seats per car with a MVM/POP machine. |
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| (305787) | |
Re: Intermediate Station Fare Payment on SIRT (was:Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI) |
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Posted by tydev417 on Sun Sep 3 10:38:14 2006, in response to Re: Intermediate Station Fare Payment on SIRT (was:Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI), posted by AMoreira81 on Sun Sep 3 10:30:50 2006. The cars were never in the NYCTA subways in the first place, most of them were made for the SIR so nothing would ever be transferred back. Obviously it seems to me that only you people seem to find a problem with the MTA making the stations free. It doesn't appear to be losing the MTA money except for Tompkinsville Station which is to have turnstiles implemented in the near future. And I guess we do get what we pay for....which is the same $2.00 fare as everybody else. Forget about the SIR and the South Shore for a second and realize that the rest of Staten Island is without free train service and has to rely on buses. |
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| (305800) | |
Re: Intermediate Station Fare Payment on SIRT (was:Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI) |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Sun Sep 3 11:15:16 2006, in response to Re: Intermediate Station Fare Payment on SIRT (was:Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI), posted by tydev417 on Sun Sep 3 10:38:14 2006. The rest of the city gets a single bus-bus or bus-subway or subway-bus transfer (and most passengers don't even use it) for that $2 fare; Staten Island gets a bus-train-boat-subway transfer for that same $2 fare.The MTA isn't losing money on SIR? What in good heavens are you smoking? The decision to eliminate fares to/from stops other than St. George was justified by the claim (I don't know if it's accurate or not) that the cost of installing and maintaining fare control equipment would exceed the revenue that it would bring in (in other words, that SIR would be even more of a money-loser with the fare control equipment than without). A similar justification was made for eliminating the ferry fare. An assumption of the above transfer policy was implicit. POP, which has much lower fare control equipment requirements, changes everything. I don't think POP was considered in the initial analysis. |
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| (305807) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI |
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Posted by Westinghouse XCB248S on Sun Sep 3 11:37:41 2006, in response to Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Sun Sep 3 02:26:20 2006. Thanks to the help of people like my dad at Pitkin. |
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| (305813) | |
Re: Intermediate Station Fare Payment on SIRT (was:Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI) |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Sep 3 11:46:37 2006, in response to Re: Intermediate Station Fare Payment on SIRT (was:Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI), posted by David of Broadway on Sun Sep 3 11:15:16 2006.   Staten Island gets a bus-train-boat-subway transfer for that same $2 fare. LION Thinks you are mistaken on this. SI residents pay for the bus, swipe again to exit the train, but then PAY AGAIN when they swipe onto the subway at South Ferry. Somebody with a cash ticket tell the LION how many fares are deducted for this said trip. |
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| (305815) | |
Re: Intermediate Station Fare Payment on SIRT (was:Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI) |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Sep 3 11:47:10 2006, in response to Re: Intermediate Station Fare Payment on SIRT (was:Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI), posted by tydev417 on Sun Sep 3 10:38:14 2006. As Professor Greenberger points out, Staten Islsanders get a really good deal with their use of bus+railway+ferry. I have no objection to free use of the SI Railway within Staten Island, because this is a concession to SI residents, who have gotten, with the exception of a very small extension to the ballpark, no investment in rail transit.Is it too littkle a concession? Should buses on SI be half-fare? Some folks in Queens would point out that Queens' population has increased a lot over the last 60 years while the borough still has the least subway service of the four boroughs served by the subway. Should they get concessions for that? SI lost two transit branches AND a rail connection to NJ a long time ago. I hope that one day we can see some restoration of the service they used to have. |
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| (305816) | |
Re: Intermediate Station Fare Payment on SIRT (was:Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI) |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Sep 3 11:56:49 2006, in response to Re: Intermediate Station Fare Payment on SIRT (was:Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI), posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Sep 3 11:46:37 2006. 1 fare is deducted for said trip. |
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| (305826) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI |
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Posted by Westinghouse XCB248S on Sun Sep 3 12:26:34 2006, in response to Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI, posted by Edwards! on Sat Sep 2 21:50:52 2006. The R44 has been in service since 1971. If they are retired by 2008, they would about 37 years old at that time. But considering the problems the R44 has had with it's electrical systems and car bodies, this could happen. |
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| (305827) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI |
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Posted by Westinghouse XCB248S on Sun Sep 3 12:26:49 2006, in response to Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI, posted by Edwards! on Sat Sep 2 21:50:52 2006. The R44 has been in service since 1971. If they are retired by 2008, they would be about 37 years old at that time. But considering the problems the R44 has had with it's electrical systems and car bodies, this could happen. |
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| (305828) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI |
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Posted by Westinghouse XCB248S on Sun Sep 3 12:27:31 2006, in response to Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI, posted by Edwards! on Sat Sep 2 21:50:52 2006. The R44s have been in service since 1971. If they are retired by 2008, they would be about 37 years old at that time. But considering the problems the R44s have had with their electrical systems and car bodies, this could happen. |
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| (305834) | |
Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Sep 3 12:46:40 2006, in response to Re: Scrap pecking order with R44-SI, posted by Westinghouse XCB248S on Sun Sep 3 12:27:31 2006. Not so..The 44's were TESTING in 1971...and placed in service the following year.. Actually the first cars arrived on TA property in 1970..but were rejected due to framing flaws....and sent back to ST Louis Car... The 46's were suppose to follow the 44 order in 73..but delays at the Pullman plant cause to the cars to be late by several years... |
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