|
|
| LIRR East Side Access (256237) | |
 |
|
| Home > SubChat | |
[ Post a New Response | Return to the Index ]
|
|
Page 1 of 9 |
|
|
| (256237) | |
LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by //ROOT on Sun May 21 23:08:29 2006 I seem to be hearing conflicting answers to this question: Will ESA reduce congestion at Penn, or will the addition of a new terminal simply result in more capacity on the LIRR, with the current throughput to Penn remaining as it is now, and additional trains running to GCT? |
|
|
| (256257) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon May 22 00:24:47 2006, in response to LIRR East Side Access, posted by //ROOT on Sun May 21 23:08:29 2006. Do not expect LIRR to cut any traffic to NYP.ROAR |
|
|
| (256263) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by italianstallion on Mon May 22 00:50:47 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon May 22 00:24:47 2006. Unless ordered to by MTA if they decide to run MNR trains into Penn. |
|
|
(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
|
| (256266) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by Edwards! on Mon May 22 00:58:45 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by italianstallion on Mon May 22 00:50:47 2006. Current plans are for the MNRR to use Penn on a limmited bases when the LIRR opens it new terminal... |
|
|
| (256268) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Mon May 22 01:08:08 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by Edwards! on Mon May 22 00:58:45 2006. MNR in Penn Station? Really? How would that work?Getting a Hudson line train into Penn on Amtrak's West Side line would be hard, since the line isn't electrified, you can't bring a diesel into Penn Station, and the LIRR uses a different third rail. Getting a New Haven line train into Penn would also be hard with today's trains; are the M8s going to have a retractable contact shoe that wouldn't smash the third rail on LIRR? There isn't a plan to build a track connection from Metro North into Penn, is there? I thought it was just the other way around. |
|
|
| (256269) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by ALSTOM R160A on Mon May 22 01:09:09 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by Edwards! on Mon May 22 00:58:45 2006. Where did you find these plans? And what MNRR cars can run off 11000V 25Hz AC lines that are over the Hellgate? I can't think of any electrics that can do that. Sure, the diesels can, but then again, I don't remember MNRR engineers being trained to operate in Amtrak territory. |
|
|
| (256271) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by ALSTOM R160A on Mon May 22 01:10:53 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by Nilet on Mon May 22 01:08:08 2006. There isn't a plan to build a track connection from Metro North into Penn, is there? I thought it was just the other way around.I don't see where you would build any sort of connection. There are already the Hellgate and West Side possibilities, but those are pretty much negated. |
|
|
| (256273) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by J trainloco on Mon May 22 01:14:22 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by ALSTOM R160A on Mon May 22 01:09:09 2006. You speak as if this cannot happen between now and the time that it takes for ESA to be completed. MNRR could make numerous adjustments to various lines for that to happen. |
|
|
| (256275) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by ALSTOM R160A on Mon May 22 01:16:38 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by J trainloco on Mon May 22 01:14:22 2006. What adjustments do you speak of? I'm talking about technical limitations between the lines and equipment. |
|
|
| (256277) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by Edwards! on Mon May 22 01:18:14 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by J trainloco on Mon May 22 01:14:22 2006. Yeah..thats pretty much the case for the West Side tunnel that the Empire service uses...From what I understand...new rail cars will use the HELLGATE portion of the trip[M8 and or M9 railcars] |
|
|
| (256278) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by WillD on Mon May 22 01:18:56 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by ALSTOM R160A on Mon May 22 01:09:09 2006. I'd be willing to bet that unless MNRR totally replaced the transformers on the M2s they'd still be capable of operating on 11kv 25hz lines. Just cut off the shoes and run them in a dedicated pool for NYP service. |
|
|
| (256279) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by J trainloco on Mon May 22 01:19:39 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by ALSTOM R160A on Mon May 22 01:16:38 2006. ESA won't be completed for another 'few' years. In that span of time they could easily electrify the West Side or purchase/upgrade equipment to run across Hell Gate.As an aside, if Diesels can't run into Penn, where do trains from the West Side go? They aren't electrics. |
|
|
| (256280) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by J trainloco on Mon May 22 01:20:47 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by WillD on Mon May 22 01:18:56 2006. Hey, does anyone know what led to the development of 2 different 3rd rail systems on MNRR/LIRR? |
|
|
| (256281) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by ALSTOM R160A on Mon May 22 01:20:52 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by WillD on Mon May 22 01:18:56 2006. True, forgot that the voltage wasn't changed over until rather recently. But then again, this would require cutting off the shoes and using cars that they expect to retire in just a few years. In addition, MNRR engineers would have to be trained for Amtrak territory. |
|
|
| (256282) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by WillD on Mon May 22 01:20:55 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by Edwards! on Mon May 22 01:18:14 2006. M9s? Of what do you speak?Yes, the M8s are likely being designed with an eye toward operation into NYP via Hell Gate Bridge with retractible shoes and 11kv 25hz operation. |
|
|
| (256283) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by ALSTOM R160A on Mon May 22 01:22:53 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by Edwards! on Mon May 22 01:18:14 2006. There is no M9 in the planning stages...it was removed from the budget. And I don't know of any plan to run the M8 over the Hellgate into Penn Station, especially since it hasn't been decided whether to add 25kV/60Hz or 11kV/25Hz support (it won't have both as having both would require additional transformers).Where are you finding this info that MTA plans on running MNRR into Penn? |
|
|
| (256285) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by ALSTOM R160A on Mon May 22 01:25:17 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by WillD on Mon May 22 01:20:55 2006. Will, it hasn't been decided whether to include 25kV/60Hz or 11kV/25Hz support to the M8's yet. It is highly unlikely that both will be included due to the need of an additional transformer. I believe I saw it somewhere over on the railroad.net forums, not exactly sure where, but I believe that they were leaning towards the 25kV/60Hz support.Not sure as for the retractable shoes. Do M2/4/6's have retractable shoes? |
|
|
| (256287) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by ALSTOM R160A on Mon May 22 01:27:17 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by J trainloco on Mon May 22 01:19:39 2006. You honestly believe that they're going to re-electrify the West Side? And there's nothing in the budget for new equipment to run across the Hellgate, unless the M8's have support for it, which has yet to be decided.And diesels can't run into Penn...they have to switch over to an electric mode using third rail, and MNRR's diesels support underrunning third rail. Amtrak and LIRR diesels (the kind running into Penn which has overrunning third rails) support overrunning third rails. |
|
|
| (256288) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by Edwards! on Mon May 22 01:27:34 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by J trainloco on Mon May 22 01:20:47 2006. Two different companies,for starters...New York Central...and the LIRR[later PENN RAILROAD].. Compeating with each other for ridership. |
|
|
| (256291) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by Edwards! on Mon May 22 01:29:09 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by ALSTOM R160A on Mon May 22 01:27:17 2006. A adjustable pick up shoe is in the works..for the new M9 rail car. |
|
|
| (256296) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by J trainloco on Mon May 22 01:33:07 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by ALSTOM R160A on Mon May 22 01:27:17 2006. I am not considering current conditions. What I am considering is the fact that if the MTA is willing to spend billions on new tunnel for the LIRR to the East side, they can spend a couple of tens of millions to bring MNRR to the West Side. What would stop them from purchasing some Diesels that are compatible with the same electric power that Amtrak uses and operating some trains into Penn? Nothing. We're likely 10 years away from ESA. Between now and then, MTA could make any number of decisions about MNRR service into Penn. You are making it seem like it is impossible under any circumstances. |
|
|
| (256297) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by Edwards! on Mon May 22 01:33:18 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by WillD on Mon May 22 01:20:55 2006. The M9 rail cars are being designed now as we speak[see the MTA CAPITOL PLAN for the LIRR]...A million buck of tax payer cash went toward the process... |
|
|
| (256298) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by ALSTOM R160A on Mon May 22 01:33:35 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by J trainloco on Mon May 22 01:20:47 2006. It was a matter of choice of the original railroad. The underruning third rail was designed specifically for the New York Central's operation into Grand Central and was originally called the Wilgus-Sprague system. The NYC felt that it would provide greater protection from accidental elctrocution and provide greater protection from snow/ice. The underrunning third rail never really caught on in North America although several European systems use it. LIRR uses a more popular overrunning third rail. |
|
|
| (256300) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by WillD on Mon May 22 01:34:04 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by J trainloco on Mon May 22 01:19:39 2006. Those trains are indeed electric. They're P32AC-DM dual mode locos, with LIRR style third rail shoes, and can run in electric into New York Penn Station. Among the problems which could arise from MN running it's push-pull dual mode Hudson line trains into NYP is the difficulty with which push pull trains run on third rail. Amtrak's dual modes always have the engineer in the cab and at the front of the train, while MN's trains would have the engineer at the far end of the train sometimes. It might be possible to run these trains through to Sunnyside and loop them there, but then that eats into East River capacity. Of course MN would also need a pool of Genesis dual modes equipped with LIRR style retracting third rail shoes, but this can be a modification to existing equipment.If the Empire Connection were electrified it'd create a slight problem. You'd either have to develop a compromise shoe which could work on MNRR and LIRR third rail and choose one to complete that electrification with. Or you'd have to electrify with 11kv catenary and run dual-voltage M8-like EMUs through with retractable third rail shoes. I say M8 like because the M8 is going suck in third rail mode, with a lack of dynamic braking and likely piss-poor performance. |
|
|
| (256301) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by ALSTOM R160A on Mon May 22 01:34:09 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by Edwards! on Mon May 22 01:27:34 2006. They weren't competing for ridership...they served different areas. |
|
|
| (256303) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by Edwards! on Mon May 22 01:35:42 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by J trainloco on Mon May 22 01:33:07 2006. Yes...They could operate trains there NOW if they chose to..via the Westside..but for obious reasons they don't. |
|
|
| (256305) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by ALSTOM R160A on Mon May 22 01:36:32 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by Edwards! on Mon May 22 01:29:09 2006. There is no M9 car in the works. It has been pulled from the latest budget. |
|
|
| (256306) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by ALSTOM R160A on Mon May 22 01:36:52 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by Edwards! on Mon May 22 01:33:18 2006. Nope, they aren't...pulled from the latest budget. |
|
|
| (256307) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by ALSTOM R160A on Mon May 22 01:38:17 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by WillD on Mon May 22 01:34:04 2006. The M8 is going to lack dynamic braking in third rail mode?? |
|
|
| (256308) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by ALSTOM R160A on Mon May 22 01:39:27 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by J trainloco on Mon May 22 01:33:07 2006. I'm saying that it doesn't seem necessary to go through all the trouble to use Amtrak-only lines for service that wouldn't be all that beneficial. |
|
|
| (256309) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by Edwards! on Mon May 22 01:39:54 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by ALSTOM R160A on Mon May 22 01:34:09 2006. What are you talking about?They did compeat for services..outside of the NYC area... NY Central and PENN RAILROAD had SO MUCH MORE trackage than what we use today...including compeating lines to Chicogo..and other cities. |
|
|
| (256310) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by ALSTOM R160A on Mon May 22 01:39:58 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by Edwards! on Mon May 22 01:35:42 2006. They can't....their diesels don't support Penn's third rail system. |
|
|
| (256311) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by ALSTOM R160A on Mon May 22 01:41:10 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by Edwards! on Mon May 22 01:39:54 2006. Okay, but we're talking about the LIRR and MNRR regions... |
|
|
| (256314) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by WillD on Mon May 22 01:45:27 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by ALSTOM R160A on Mon May 22 01:25:17 2006. And thus the reason I have absolutely no faith in anything the morons designing the M8 come up with, they're actually stupid enough to buy into the idea that a second transformer is needed for 11kv 25hz and 12kv 60hz operation. The AEM7s, ALP44s, and ALP46s all have one transformer, and I believe the HHP-8s do as well. The only dual-transformer rail vehicle I can think of is the Acela, which not surprisingly is designed by Bombardier, who probably will end up building these POSes. NJT's Arrows have one transformer which can be switched between 11kv25hz/12kv60hz and 25kv operation in the yard. SEPTA ordered some of their Silverliner IVs with single automatic tap changing transformers capable of handling 11kv 25hz, 12kv 60hz, and 25kv 60hz. There's absolutely no reason for MN to go with two transformers other than laziness on BBD's part. Just design the core for handle 25hz power and have the windings appropriate for 25kv operation, with automatic taps for 12 and 11kv. |
|
|
| (256315) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by J trainloco on Mon May 22 01:45:51 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by ALSTOM R160A on Mon May 22 01:39:27 2006. I'm saying that it doesn't seem necessary to go through all the trouble to use Amtrak-only lines for service that wouldn't be all that beneficial.It's just as beneficial as ESA, and for a tiny fraction of the cost. |
|
|
| (256317) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by ALSTOM R160A on Mon May 22 01:50:08 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by J trainloco on Mon May 22 01:45:51 2006. ESA doesn't require purchasing new locomotives/equipment or doing anything to Amtrak-owned lines. |
|
|
| (256319) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by Sand Box John on Mon May 22 01:57:36 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by J trainloco on Mon May 22 01:20:47 2006. Two different and competing companies The New York Central and The Pennsylvania Railroad. The New York Central chose to go with Frank Sprague William Wilgus under running third rail as Sprague was a member of engineering group that designed the electrification for the Grand Central Terminal project. The Pennsylvania and its subsidiary The Long Island Railroad chose to go with the over running third rail based on over running third rail systems that the Pennsylvania Railroad engineering group had experience with and visited.The Grand Central Terminal electrification dates to 1906 The Pennsylvania and its subsidiary The Long Island Railroad third rail electrification dates to 1910 and 1905 respectively. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
|
|
| (256329) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by Rail Blue on Mon May 22 03:36:32 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by ALSTOM R160A on Mon May 22 01:39:58 2006. They could, however, at any time buy or rent some that did. |
|
|
| (256330) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by Rail Blue on Mon May 22 03:43:57 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by ALSTOM R160A on Mon May 22 01:20:52 2006. In addition, MNRR engineers would have to be trained for Amtrak territory.Or Amtrak engineers could be hired by MNRR to run Poughkeepsie - NYP - New Haven services. |
|
|
| (256366) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by Newkirk Images on Mon May 22 07:31:14 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by ALSTOM R160A on Mon May 22 01:25:17 2006. "Do M2/4/6's have retractable shoes?"No, but the Gas/Turbine cars did. Bill "Newkirk" |
|
|
| (256370) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon May 22 07:59:01 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by Edwards! on Mon May 22 01:29:09 2006. There is no M-9 car , not in design or development, the funding to do engineering has been pulled over a year ago. |
|
|
| (256371) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon May 22 08:02:26 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by ALSTOM R160A on Mon May 22 01:38:17 2006. No they don't lack dynamic brake, both cars will have power and dynamic in both power modes.WillD is confusing original triplket design of one unpowerd car between two powered type M-7 cars, that design was abandoned. |
|
|
| (256372) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon May 22 08:07:40 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by Rail Blue on Mon May 22 03:43:57 2006. Amtrak employees can only run Amtrak trains on MNCR or LIRR territory.By union agreement any and all MNCR trains will be operated by members of ACRE. |
|
|
| (256373) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by JRice on Mon May 22 08:09:29 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by Nilet on Mon May 22 01:08:08 2006. This is only at a study phase. ESA makes sure the possiblity (as far as Harold) is there.NYP is almost at capacity. ESA makes room for more trains while offering the optional destination. |
|
|
| (256374) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon May 22 08:10:38 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by Newkirk Images on Mon May 22 07:31:14 2006. To equip 360 cars with retractable shoes would be a maintenance headage and would cripple part of fleet in no time.its not only the retractable shoe mech but all associated piping and connectors from truck to car, the control syem etc. |
|
|
| (256375) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon May 22 08:13:43 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by JRice on Mon May 22 08:09:29 2006. ESA will not make more room in Penn, it will add more trains heading to Manhattan but amout of LIRR trains to Penn will be same.ESA will more or less cut down on trains to Long Island City. Even if more slots in Penn station were to became available they would go to NJtransit, not to MNCR. The slots into Penn do not belong to MTA but under grandfathering to LIRR as old PRR partner. |
|
|
| (256381) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by Dan Lawrence on Mon May 22 08:32:38 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by ALSTOM R160A on Mon May 22 01:33:35 2006. Interestingly, other than the MNRR (former NYC) use, Wilgus-Sprague third rail is used on SEPTA's Market-Frankford line and the Dockland's LR line in England.I know of no other users of W-S third rail, does anyone else know of any? |
|
|
| (256383) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon May 22 08:37:04 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by Dan Lawrence on Mon May 22 08:32:38 2006. Believe the Rotterdam and Amsterdam Metro systems use same W-S rail |
|
|
| (256399) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon May 22 09:37:30 2006, in response to LIRR East Side Access, posted by //ROOT on Sun May 21 23:08:29 2006. I don't believe too many trains will be cut from Penn. Of course there may be a few, but the East Side Access is mainly to increase capacity on the LIRR. The LIRR can't run more trains than they do or want to now because of capacity at Penn. I believe I remember hearing that Brooklyn service may be reduced a little but. And of course I don't know what will become of Hunterspoint Ave service either which will become much less necessary, in fact it will probably be a ghost town at Hunterspoint Ave after East Side access. But of course the diesels have to terminate somewhere as they will have to get to LIC yard anyway. But perhaps they will be deadheaded to LIC (maybe via the Lower Montauk line) and terminated at Jamaica to passengers instead of running in service to Hunterspoint Ave station. The 7 line will also get a reprieve in passengers as you won't have all those transferees at Hunterspoint Ave station. |
|
|
| (256416) | |
Re: LIRR East Side Access |
|
|
Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon May 22 10:18:33 2006, in response to Re: LIRR East Side Access, posted by ALSTOM R160A on Mon May 22 01:10:53 2006. NH trains can use the cat over the Hellgate, but since they also have shoes uncompatable with LIRR rails, they cannot go there, unless you use an electric locomotive all the way.MNRR trains cannot use the Westside Access as there is NO electricity there. Yeah they could run like AMTK with diesels running in the riverside tunnel, but they would have to be shut off prior to entering the station. MNRR has no cars or Locomotives that can run off of LIRR rail or PRR cats. Its a stoopit idea who's time has not yet come. ROAR |
|
|
|
|
Page 1 of 9 |
|
