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Posted by Jailhousedoc on Fri Oct 25 11:11:40 2024 I recently was on an Amtrak train on the Northeast Corridor line in New Jersey aand saw the Portal Bridge replacement - a spectacular looking piece of construction which was long overdue - will there be another rail station built in or under Penn Station similar to Grand Central Madison for NJ Transit ? With the replacement of the bridge, what will become of the old right of way ? |
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Posted by mkeit on Fri Oct 25 17:13:12 2024, in response to questions, posted by Jailhousedoc on Fri Oct 25 11:11:40 2024. A second bridge will be built on the existing ROW in the future.Amtrak wants to build a new station-10 tracks between 30 and 31 sts. |
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Posted by Jailhousedoc on Fri Oct 25 18:39:41 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by mkeit on Fri Oct 25 17:13:12 2024. Would either Norfolk Southern or CSX consider building a tunnel for freight under the Hudson close to NYC to prevent that long trek up to Selkirk, NY in order to cross the river ? Think of all the fuel savings. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Fri Oct 25 19:48:50 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by Jailhousedoc on Fri Oct 25 18:39:41 2024. "Would either Norfolk Southern or CSX consider building a tunnel for freight under the Hudson close to NYC to prevent that long trek up to Selkirk, NY in order to cross the river? Think of all the fuel savings."The Port Authority was chartered for this purpose in the early 20th century. It has not yet done so. |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Oct 25 22:20:30 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by Jailhousedoc on Fri Oct 25 18:39:41 2024. No.There's no market for cross-Hudson freight because there are no decent sized freight yards in Queens or Long Island. If there were enough demand to serve multiple daily freights that could run non-stop from NJ to LI, then a tunnel might be worth it. But there isn't. |
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Posted by BILLBKLYN on Fri Oct 25 23:23:43 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by AlM on Fri Oct 25 22:20:30 2024. I don'think he meant to LI. I think he meant points east like the Hudson Valley, CT., RI., MA |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Oct 26 05:37:52 2024, in response to questions, posted by Jailhousedoc on Fri Oct 25 11:11:40 2024. There will be another bridge built on the other side.Right now, they need to get One built to remove the original bridge from service. What will also be under construction soon is the Loop system to connect the northern NJ lines directly to Pennsylvania station via the new tunnel. Work on the new tunnels have been slow, with some land tunnels already built in Manhattan, and partially completed on the Jersey side. For the river tunnel itself,a Huge ETBM WILL BE USED TO DIG THE TUNNELS THROUGH THE MUD UNDER THE HUDSON. EARTH PRESSURE TUNNEL BORING MACHINE WILL BE ABLE TO PUSH THROUGH EASIER SETTING UP THE TUNNEL SHELL AND WALLS BEHIND ITSELF AS IT MOVES ALONG. |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Oct 26 05:44:37 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by AlM on Fri Oct 25 22:20:30 2024. Was the original purpose of putting the Port Authority together in the first place.The PA never wanted to be in the Railroad business, and let's both States know it,too. They held on to Path since 1962, and has yet to extend the line to anywhere. Even the new Ironbound extension is on hold right now. NJ Transit has decided to build the new station that PATH was supposed to build on the south side near the airport Ahead of the extension. |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Oct 26 09:34:18 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by BILLBKLYN on Fri Oct 25 23:23:43 2024. For NJ to RI or MA, the Selkirk bridge isn't much of a detour. Especially since freight would see restrictions during heavy passenger traffic times.And I doubt the freight demand from NJ to CT is high enough that anyone cares about the extra miles to go via the Selkirk bridge. If you have a container load of stuff for a box store in New Haven, no big deal to go via Springfield. And if the container is coming from China, it'll come via Buffalo-Albany anyway. |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Sat Oct 26 11:01:30 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by AlM on Fri Oct 25 22:20:30 2024. "There's no market for cross-Hudson freight..."Every weekday morning I see the parade of tractor trailers crawling westbound on the Long Island Expressway, heading for the Throgs Neck Bridge, fouling up traffic. The need is there, and it might mean that one or more freight yards need to be constructed. Every 200-car freight train that takes 200 tractor trailers off the highways is a win for everyone. |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Oct 26 11:23:18 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by Andrew Saucci on Sat Oct 26 11:01:30 2024. Yep. Every tractor-trailer on the LIE represents one carload of freight. A new tunnel to Long Island to route mainland freight coupled with several team track yards would be a big help in knocking down traffic delays on the LIE and Cross Bronx. Trucks then would be used for local commodity delivery. This would eliminate the 2 day delay in shipping freight all the way up to Selkirk, cross the Hudson then down the east side of the Hudson to Oak Point to be then shipped over the Hell Gate to LI. |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Oct 26 13:56:06 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by Andrew Saucci on Sat Oct 26 11:01:30 2024. Yes, if the freight yards were constructed the demand would be there.However, even if there were 10 100 car train loads of freight a day, it might be hard to make an economic argument for a tunnel as opposed to just adding 6 hours to the trip by using the Selkirk Bridge. |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Oct 26 14:00:26 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Oct 26 11:23:18 2024. This would eliminate the 2 day delay in shipping freight all the way up to Selkirk, cross the Hudson then down the east side of the Hudson to Oak Point to be then shipped over the Hell Gate to LI.It's only a 2 day delay because LI has no freight yard able to handle a full 100 car train load, so trains have to be reassembled in Selkirk Yard. If you had a full train load from NJ to LI, it's only about 250 miles from northern NJ to Nassau County via the Selkirk Bridge. No reason that should take more than 6 or 8 hours in the middle of the night when passenger train traffic is minimal. |
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Posted by Italianstallion on Sat Oct 26 14:02:22 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by Jailhousedoc on Fri Oct 25 18:39:41 2024. Have we all forgotten the plans for the Cross Harbor Freight Tunnel? |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Oct 26 14:56:20 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by Italianstallion on Sat Oct 26 14:02:22 2024. I haven't. I thought that was what we were discussing, even though the OP is probably unaware of it.The powers that be have dithered for over 20 years about a freight yard on Pilgrim State Hospital's grounds. Unless a yard like that gets approved, the tunnel is a waste of money. And even if the yard gets built, it may be hard to make a case for the tunnel unless the demand requires quite a few trains per day. |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Oct 26 17:55:28 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by AlM on Sat Oct 26 14:00:26 2024. Make that a 3 day delay. Day 1 up to Selkirk, Day 2, Selkirk to Oak Pt, Day 3 Oak Pt to Fresh Pond. A cross harbor freight tunnel would eliminate the up and down the Hudson and the delays encountered by passenger trains that would go with that. Once shippers realize they'd get their goods much sooner w/o all those moves, they'd flock to the RR in droves, especially if electric trucks and all the overhead expense that goes with them someday dominate highway traffic. |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Oct 26 18:18:07 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Oct 26 17:55:28 2024. Day 1 up to Selkirk, Day 2, Selkirk to Oak Pt, Day 3 Oak Pt to Fresh PondTotally unnecessary if you have an entire train going from NJ to LI. Only necessary if you don't have a full train and have to break up the train and reform it twice. And if you don't have enough demand for full trains from NJ to LI, then you don't have enough demand for a tunnel. |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Oct 26 19:12:27 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by AlM on Sat Oct 26 18:18:07 2024. Seems to me there was a workable solution a century ago--carfloats across the bay to the 65th St end of the ROW we now call Triboro RX. Is there need for greater capacity than can be moved by car float? |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Oct 26 19:27:58 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Oct 26 19:12:27 2024. Car floats are fine if the demand is like one train per day or less.A tunnel is fine if the demand is tens of trains per day. Any demand in between, just run express trains straight through from NJ to LI. |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Oct 26 20:13:22 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by AlM on Sat Oct 26 19:27:58 2024. So, IINM, the complaint about the current reality is too many containers being hauled by semi's on the LIeE et al. From my anti-highway POV getting the trucks off the roads is a goal. |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Oct 27 03:00:20 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Oct 26 11:23:18 2024. Maybe.But,then again, every one of those tractor-trailers is a job someone has. Pulling freight to feed families, right? Build the tunnel, and that will displace jobs. Same thing for the Staten Island ferry, and why the State and city won't finish the Narrows Subway Tunnel, or build a tunnel under the New York Bay. Jobs. Building a tunnel Will kill jobs. The Ferry is Free, now, being paid via subsidies. Large boats to carry a large amount of people at one time. Same thing for the river crossings. The distance between the GW Bridge and the Lincoln Tunnels, and Holland Tunnel. The Path Tubes and the North River Tunnels. It's All a game,to suck up the most money out of the patrons, provide jobs at the same time for its employees (now with EZPass, things are somewhat different). The Governor of New York, thought she was slick, by throwing in the Cross Harbor Freight Study into the IBX mix. She knows this tunnel will NEVER be built,at Anytime. She was PADDING THE BILL, THROWING SOMEONE A BONE Sometimes, you gotta grease a few palms along the way. Politically, you won't see Any movement on the CHF line. Politically speaking, you Won't see any movement on Any tunnels to Staten Island because of the Narrows Bridge, or any of the three bridges the PA owns. You Will never see the Bridge across the Hudson at 125th at that would have been built to connect to the Triboro Bridge. This is Also one of the reasons Why you will never see a "complete" Second Avenue Subway,or at least the most important part of the route through Midtown. This is why you will never see New Subways in the outer boroughs, even though the MTA knows they are needed. It's ALL BULLSHIT. |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Oct 27 09:01:08 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Oct 26 20:13:22 2024. getting the trucks off the roads is a goalA goal insufficiently shared by the NIMBY-fearing political powers over a 20-year period that would need to make a large freight yard on LI happen. Get a small freight yard started with room for growth. Run some complete trains non-stop from NJ to LI. Then watch the traffic grow. |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Oct 27 10:39:29 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by Edwards! on Sun Oct 27 03:00:20 2024. Progress can be cold blooded at times. Sure there will be jobs lost or at least displaced. But where was the outcry about feeding families when the hundreds of toll takers across the area were out on the street when cashless tolls were instituted?On the flip side, A rail tunnel would be a long term job maker for hundreds of construction workers, sandhogs etc. Not to mention the rail crews needed to run the trains. Grease the palms is nothing new with construction projects in the NYC metro area. Thats what got the 3d Ave El torn down without a single spade being turned for a 2nd Ave subway that was supposed to replace it. But aside from that, back to reality. I must agree with you that the tunnel will never be built, at least not even in our grandkids lifetime. |
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Posted by 3-9 on Mon Oct 28 08:25:11 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by AlM on Sun Oct 27 09:01:08 2024. OK, so you get a yard going on LI, but won't the LIRR be an issue? The LIRR doesn't deal with freight anymore, so it's priority is passenger trains. |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Mon Oct 28 09:16:17 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Oct 27 10:39:29 2024. I must agree with you that the tunnel will never be built, at least not even in our grandkids lifetime.Why kill a CASH $$$$ Cow! |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Mon Oct 28 09:19:41 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by 3-9 on Mon Oct 28 08:25:11 2024. Freight still operates on the LIRR. The only difference is that it is operated by NY & Atlantic Railway. |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Oct 28 12:22:24 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by 3-9 on Mon Oct 28 08:25:11 2024. Obviously there won't be freight trains in rush hours. But other than that, there is plenty of capacity for trains which, as Bill mentions, would be operated by the NY and Atlantic. |
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Posted by Handbrake on Mon Oct 28 20:09:17 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by Edwards! on Sun Oct 27 03:00:20 2024. Cashless tolls are the No Armed Bandits of today's local government. Coupled with congestion pricing policies that will certainly extend beyond the existing (On Hold) Manhattan central business district.It's all about indirect tax revenue on those that can be positively identified by either a EZ transponder or vehicle license plate. Avoid paying a transit fare, eh, pass and collect a Latte. Avoid paying a toll, potentially loose the vehicle, and or pay a hefty fine. The only road congestion into the Manhattan CBD at 2AM would be road construction, but it doesn't matter, a toll will still be collected in the dark & over the night. A Cash Cow in the milking. Sorry to digress, but it's all a sham when it applies to transit in this region. |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue Oct 29 05:34:51 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by Handbrake on Mon Oct 28 20:09:17 2024. A lot to unpack but on one hand, you are agreeing With me, and the other, disagreeing.Im Only looking at the climate, political and otherwise. We Know this tunnel Won't be built. It's a multi billion dollar investment that will take years to complete. It will take two states And the federal government to build it. The Port Authority is the Only agency that could get it started, and they turned their back on this thing for a 100 years. I said awhile back, that the way the system is set up,is to punish the people who own cars, and folks that use public transportation at the same time. New York state, and City,treats it citizens like meat on a hook. |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Oct 29 19:55:06 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by Edwards! on Tue Oct 29 05:34:51 2024. Damned if you and damned if you don't. |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Oct 30 07:52:16 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Oct 29 19:55:06 2024. Exactly.And what makes this worse,is even if you don't drive, you are Still being "taxed" by the City or State,just for LIVING THERE. The MTA gets a piece of EVERY PHONE CABLE ELECTRIC GAS BILL. IT GETS A PIECE OF EVERY PROPERTY TAX, AND A PIECE OF EVERY SCHOOL TAX. YOU SHOP? The MTA gets a piece of the sales tax. This company has placed itself DEEP within the lives of Any area that it serves for miles around. You Can't escape. If you move west,NJ Transit will do exactly the same thing. Move east,MTA. Move to Upstate NY,pass Poughkeepsie, you Might be safe from MTA , but you get my meaning. CDTA will have you squared in the Capitol Region. It's a "catch 22",where no matter what you do,if you trying to navigate society, you Will be giving Some sort of money away to some "authority" figure. You will do this, with Them getting their hands on Your money BEFORE YOU DO, TAKING WHAT THEY WANT, GIVING YOU WHAT'S LEFT.(See Any Pay Stub). I Still get sticker shocked Every time I see how many deductions are taken. |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Oct 30 10:03:54 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Mon Oct 28 09:19:41 2024. I know, but is the NY&A capable of handling 80-100 car freight drags? |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Oct 30 10:07:24 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by AlM on Mon Oct 28 12:22:24 2024. I would think the main line would be pretty busy during midday as well. Would the LIRR still be willing to allow 80-100 car freight trains during that time? If the times were restricted any further, would it still be worth it for the customers? |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Oct 30 11:22:24 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by 3-9 on Wed Oct 30 10:03:54 2024. I'm sure they have the motive power for 100 car drags on a mostly flat terrain, but there are still a number of grade crossings on the "main line" thru populated areas. The locals would scream like hell stuck at grade crossing awaiting for a 100 car train to clear. But this is mostly a moot point since there's not enough traffic to generate 100 car trains. |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Oct 30 18:25:40 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by 3-9 on Wed Oct 30 10:07:24 2024. Many of the lines peel off just east of Jamaica. All you have left by the time you're down to 3 tracks is Huntington, Hempstead, and Ronkonkoma. I believe those are all only hourly.3 trains per hour in each direction. |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Oct 30 18:52:11 2024, in response to Re: questions, posted by Edwards! on Wed Oct 30 07:52:16 2024. People in Denver are bitching about all the slow zones on light rail right now. Trains crawling at 10 mph because of suspect track. |
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