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| Re: Culver Line (1633836) | |
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| (1634673) | |
Re: Culver Line |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Aug 7 09:26:10 2024, in response to Re: Culver Line, posted by Q65A on Wed Aug 7 09:22:01 2024. Lets not forget boatloads of $$$ |
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| (1634674) | |
Re: Culver Line |
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Posted by Handbrake on Wed Aug 7 09:26:53 2024, in response to Re: Culver Line, posted by Q65A on Wed Aug 7 09:22:01 2024. Capital contract of today will bleed the region dry of money. The days of the revolutionary four trach subways featuring express service, a unique feature of the Contract One subway, will unfortunately most likely never be seen again in New York. |
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| (1634684) | |
Re: Culver Line |
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Posted by Q65A on Wed Aug 7 13:27:17 2024, in response to Re: Culver Line, posted by Handbrake on Wed Aug 7 09:26:53 2024. It is pretty amazing to think that the IRT and BRT were private sector, for-profit organizations when they first started. |
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| (1634693) | |
Re: Culver Line |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Aug 7 14:15:25 2024, in response to Re: Culver Line, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Aug 7 09:26:10 2024. Absolutely.That's why I said muscle. It like I said, the state and the government can "find money" for a lot of things, except for things We need. Why is it so hard to find money for the infrastructure that WE Need, but No problem with giving it away for ammunition and weapons of "mass destruction"? Why must it Always come to "Us verses Them", when we All have to share this world? Great,even Good infrastructure keeps the world moving and motivated. Being able to commute from place to place, contributes to the economy... eventually you will make and spend Money! It should Not cost "billions" of dollars to build good infrastructure,that will serve millions of people paying back the money sunk into the project. This is ridiculous in and of itself. From my standpoint,it appears that it's easier to invest in the demise of people,than the enhancement of them. The lack of logic is mind boggling. Or perhaps,my view is far too optimistic for This world. |
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| (1634695) | |
Re: Culver Line |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Aug 7 14:39:25 2024, in response to Re: Culver Line, posted by Handbrake on Wed Aug 7 08:51:24 2024. The Revised plan had the Lafayette Avenue subway continued to Broadway and double back, heading westbound to the Myrtle Central line under Bushwick Avenue.An additional plan had the line under Bushwick Avenue crossing to Broadway,under the Broadway El to ENY, to join the Fulton St Subway's Jamaica Avenue Line. This was an enormous under taking, containing several trunk routes, elimination of two Elevated structures..both Broadway and Myrtle avenue.. The subway under Stanhope st would not be built due to the redirection of the Crosstown route. This was an attempt to get the line built, to at least get the South 4th st subway started using the easiest method. This is, however, the plan the city had for the Lafayette Avenue subway from the earliest days. The line, and the remaining portions of the So called "Second System" were never completed,as the funds for the lines never materialized. Some blamed it on the Stock Market crash.. Yet That did not stop the city from finding money to destroy miles and miles of elevated rail line. |
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| (1634696) | |
Re: Culver Line |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Aug 7 14:39:25 2024, in response to Re: Culver Line, posted by Handbrake on Wed Aug 7 08:51:24 2024. The Revised plan had the Lafayette Avenue subway continued to Broadway and double back, heading westbound to the Myrtle Central line under Bushwick Avenue.An additional plan had the line under Bushwick Avenue crossing to Broadway,under the Broadway El to ENY, to join the Fulton St Subway's Jamaica Avenue Line. This was an enormous under taking, containing several trunk routes, elimination of two Elevated structures..both Broadway and Myrtle avenue.. The subway under Stanhope st would not be built due to the redirection of the Crosstown route. This was an attempt to get the line built, to at least get the South 4th st subway started using the easiest method. This is, however, the plan the city had for the Lafayette Avenue subway from the earliest days. The line, and the remaining portions of the So called "Second System" were never completed,as the funds for the lines never materialized. Some blamed it on the Stock Market crash.. Yet That did not stop the city from finding money to destroy miles and miles of elevated rail line. |
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| (1634703) | |
Re: Culver Line |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 7 15:50:44 2024, in response to Re: Culver Line, posted by Q65A on Wed Aug 7 13:27:17 2024. Back then, the City built the structures. It wanted no part of full municipal ownership and operation. |
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| (1634707) | |
Re: Culver Line |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Aug 7 17:02:55 2024, in response to Re: Culver Line, posted by Edwards! on Wed Aug 7 14:15:25 2024. Clear headed analysis. Bottomline, whenthebribing class seesprofits (patronage distribution, over priced contracts, real estate profits), the money gets found. Actual benefits to the rest of us are a distant second.I wish I could say this is nmew, unique, rare, butno, ancient, common, usual. |
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| (1634709) | |
Re: Culver Line |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Aug 7 17:16:05 2024, in response to Re: Culver Line, posted by Edwards! on Wed Aug 7 14:39:25 2024. "Yet That did not stop the city from finding money to destroy miles and miles of elevated rail line."Makes one wonder how many fat envelops were passed under the table from real estate speculators to the City to demolish the Manhattan ELs. I'm sure that helped with the cost. You want the El gone? Then you pay for it. Once gone, real estate values as predicted went thru the roof. $$$ well spent if you were involved. |
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| (1634713) | |
Re: Culver Line |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Aug 7 18:04:38 2024, in response to Re: Culver Line, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Aug 7 17:16:05 2024. fROM fIORELLOhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsC8cKxSjfk |
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| (1634718) | |
Re: Culver Line |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Aug 7 21:03:02 2024, in response to Re: Culver Line, posted by Edwards! on Wed Aug 7 14:15:25 2024. Look at all the money we give away to foreign countries. |
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| (1634725) | |
Re: Culver Line |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Aug 8 02:05:49 2024, in response to Re: Culver Line, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Aug 7 21:03:02 2024. One, we buy their cooperation (not necessarily my favorite plan), rwo, the money often is to buy US made hardware or occasionally foodstuffs. Generosity is a small part of the caslculus. |
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| (1634739) | |
Re: Culver Line |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Aug 8 14:12:35 2024, in response to Re: Culver Line, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Aug 7 17:02:55 2024. Geez.Like I said, optimistic from my "wishing well". However, knowing full well how the system works... The Good of the Many is more important than the needs of the few, Doctor' "Star Trek" |
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| (1634746) | |
Re: Culver Line |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Aug 8 16:32:17 2024, in response to Re: Culver Line, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Aug 7 21:03:02 2024. I blame Nixon and his surprise visit to China, followed by ass-kissing tariff changes! |
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| (1634749) | |
Re: Culver Line |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Aug 8 16:48:45 2024, in response to Re: Culver Line, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Aug 7 17:16:05 2024. The fattest envelopes were passed under the table to get the remaining 2nd Ave el from Queens torn down. Next would have been Albert J Volk, LaGuardia's close friend. he got the contract to tear down the 10+ miles of the 9th Ave el. |
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| (1634751) | |
Re: Culver Line |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Aug 8 18:19:50 2024, in response to Re: Culver Line, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Aug 7 21:03:02 2024. We give hardly any money away to foreign countries. |
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| (1634752) | |
Re: Culver Line |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Aug 8 18:21:09 2024, in response to Re: Culver Line, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Aug 8 02:05:49 2024. Yes. Look at Ukraine. Nearly all of the aid we give them is military hardware manufactured in the US by Americans with good jobs.Of course, the cost of letting Russia win is worse. |
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| (1634753) | |
Re: Culver Line |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Aug 8 18:26:31 2024, in response to Re: Culver Line, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Aug 8 16:32:17 2024. China and the US didn’t normalize trade relations until 1980 under Carter. |
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| (1634754) | |
Re: Culver Line |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Aug 8 18:56:19 2024, in response to Re: Culver Line, posted by Edwards! on Thu Aug 8 14:12:35 2024. Star Trek II, The Wrath of Kahn, 1982. IMO the best of the original cast Star Trek movies. |
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| (1634760) | |
Re: Culver Line |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Aug 8 21:41:34 2024, in response to Re: Culver Line, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Aug 8 18:56:19 2024. IAWTP |
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| (1634762) | |
Re: Culver Line |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Aug 9 02:43:54 2024, in response to Re: Culver Line, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Aug 8 18:21:09 2024. Edging toward OTC here. I'll just say, were I in charge, the full SAS would be under construction--4 track trunk in Manhattan... We HAVE the money, the bribers simply aren't taxed enough, and since they don't mostly use transit... |
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| (1634790) | |
Re: Culver Line |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Aug 9 13:00:43 2024, in response to Re: Culver Line, posted by Handbrake on Wed Aug 7 09:12:26 2024. The idea would be to create a new ROW as close to the original as possible. That is why I would have most of it as single tracks on two levels to allow for it to not use too much width. |
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| (1634809) | |
Re: Culver Line |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Aug 10 01:43:44 2024, in response to Re: Culver Line, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Aug 8 16:48:45 2024. The unfortunate problem with the 9th Ave el which as I recall was the oldest of the Manhattan els, was that the structure was also the weakest and would have required the greatest amount of rebuilding to strengthen it sufficiently to hold the steel cars that would have eventually had to replace them. |
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| (1634828) | |
Re: Culver Line |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Aug 10 15:45:00 2024, in response to Re: Culver Line, posted by randyo on Sat Aug 10 01:43:44 2024. That is correct, Randy! The 9th Ave el could not handle Composite cars because of its weak structure, especially in the older sections, south of 53rd St. On June 10th, 1940, the last day of service, 15 Composite cars ran up the 9th Ave el for the Polo Grounds shuttle service. They ran in five 3-train sets. |
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| (1634830) | |
Re: Culver Line |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Aug 10 15:56:09 2024, in response to Re: Culver Line, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Aug 9 13:00:43 2024. One of the reasons that the IND was connected to the Culver line was to eliminate trains from the busy BMT 4th Ave subway. Or did you forget that? |
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| (1634836) | |
Re: Culver Line |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Aug 11 03:53:52 2024, in response to Re: Culver Line, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Aug 10 15:56:09 2024. That was one of many reasons.Another was that the bMT was suffering a severe car shortage which is why during the week, Culver subway trains terminated at Kings Hwy and West end trains terminated at Bay Pky. The Culver had el trains from the 5th Ave line that went through to Stl and the West End had el car shuttled from Bay Pky to Stl. After the 5th Av el shut down in 1940, Culver el trains continued to run between Stl and 9th Ave. The local Bay Ridge newspaper Home Reporter used to run reprints of older articles and one issue contained a reprint of a 1938 article addressing the issue in which it was mentioned that the BMT’s car shortage would be relieved once the city subway (IND) was connected to the Culver. |
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| (1634855) | |
Re: Culver Line |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Aug 11 14:37:55 2024, in response to Re: Culver Line, posted by randyo on Sun Aug 11 03:53:52 2024. Not only that, but the IND Always planned on assuming control of the Culver route into Coney Island.At Church Ave, the lower level was built to interchange with the Fort Hamilton/10 Ave route along with the West End, and a undefined easterly subway line heading towards the Flatlands area. The 10th Ave route was modified to include a subway tunnel under the Narrows to Staten Island..a deep bore station under the Saint George Terminal, with a connection to both branches of the SIRT. The Main route under Ft.Hamilton Pky would have traveled to 86th st,then east near the Coney Island complex. With the SI branch being refocused, the 86th st Subway was dropped.. Eventually, only the Culver connection was partially built, much of the structure from the portal connecting to the el..by 1940..but nothing more. The delay ,of course,was financial.. along with internal bickering. Also,one might also consider that Robert Moses and company were on a campaign AGAINST the subway.. preventing much needed funding for some routes, instead being funneled to his bridge tunnel parkway projects. Brooklyn and the Bronx actually received less new routes,as the BMT had the boro well covered, especially in the North East,.. however, the Bronx while having coverage,packed east west coverage. The Concourse extension would have provided some relief. The same situation applied to Brooklyn, areas lacking rail service. Queens received the Queen's Blvd route, however none of its branches were built. |
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