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| (1633714) | |
AMTRAK Service Outage |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Jul 6 20:08:32 2024 Reported earlier, due to a circuit breaker malfunction, Amtrak is dealing with power outages between Penn station and New Haven. Consequently, all Amtrak service has been suspended between NY & Boston for the remainder of the day. Metro North service ? |
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Re: AMTRAK Service Outage |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 6 20:29:49 2024, in response to AMTRAK Service Outage, posted by Train Dude on Sat Jul 6 20:08:32 2024. I'm starting to suspect sabotage. This is happening daily. |
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Re: AMTRAK Service Outage |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Jul 6 21:28:24 2024, in response to Re: AMTRAK Service Outage, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 6 20:29:49 2024. from where I sit in Oaklanb CA, sabotage seems uikely. Electrical wiring has higher resistance at higher temperatures. This becomes a feedback loop.As an example, wiring in conduit on rooftops needs to be upsized 2 times (12-8) because it will be heated by the sun. So, if any segment of thesupply to the catenary New Rochelle to Sunnyside is overheating, circuit breakers would trip. Are you having a heat wave? |
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Re: AMTRAK Service Outage |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Jul 6 21:45:59 2024, in response to Re: AMTRAK Service Outage, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Jul 6 21:28:24 2024. The northeast is having a heat wave. |
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Re: AMTRAK Service Outage |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Jul 6 21:49:57 2024, in response to Re: AMTRAK Service Outage, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Jul 6 21:28:24 2024. The spec for a wire's current capacity is its not heating the wire above 40°C or 104°F. If the wire is insulated, then the heat is less likely to dissipate and the same diameter wire has a lower current capacity than on that is bare. Similarly, a wire in a conduit has lower current carrying capacity than one that is in open air.Next, the catenary between NYP and New Haven is 12.5 KV @ 60 Hz. It's 12.5 KV @ 25 Hz between NYP and Washington and 25KV @ 60 Hz between New Haven and Boston. The resistance of solid wire increases with frequency because of the skin effect. Also, the 12.5 KV lines will draw twice the current and dissipate twice the heat for the same amount of power than 25 KV lines. The stretch between NYP and New Haven has the worst of both worlds: 60 Hz and 12.5 KV. If the breaker were triggered by excess heat, the section between NYP and New Haven is the most likely location to suffer such a failure. |
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Re: AMTRAK Service Outage |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sat Jul 6 22:11:09 2024, in response to Re: AMTRAK Service Outage, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 6 20:29:49 2024. In the case of NJ Transit, the engineers have been without a contract for 5 years.I'm sure management there suspected sabotage. In any case, there are cameras everywhere. Sabotage would likely be detected. |
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| (1633720) | |
Re: AMTRAK Service Outage |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Jul 6 22:11:39 2024, in response to Re: AMTRAK Service Outage, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Jul 6 21:49:57 2024. IINM,the "phase break" where Amtrak and any other electyrics shift supply specs is some where between Sunnyside and Hell Gate. And yes, as a retired electrician I have spent decades dealing with allowable ampacities of bare wire, and insulated wires of various classes in multiple applications. My reference to rooftop conduit work was specifically learnt doing solar PV where the conduits get very warm. |
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| (1633721) | |
Re: AMTRAK Service Outage |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Jul 6 22:19:01 2024, in response to Re: AMTRAK Service Outage, posted by LuchAAA on Sat Jul 6 22:11:09 2024. Are there similar incidents in NJT territory? |
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| (1633724) | |
Re: AMTRAK Service Outage |
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Posted by jailhousedoc on Sun Jul 7 12:53:15 2024, in response to Re: AMTRAK Service Outage, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Jul 6 21:49:57 2024. Thanks for the information - it looks like the system might be in need of some upgrades. Since you mentioned it, a GG-1 locomotive would not be able to operate from Washington, DC to Boston using the current ( no pun intended) set up, but say, an AEM-7 or later class locomotive could ? In the past how did the Pennsylvania RR and the New Haven deal with these problems - yes, there was no catenary north of New Haven in the past, and how did the Erie Lackawanna address any problems on their system operating from hoboken to their lines in New Jersey ? |
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Re: AMTRAK Service Outage |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Sun Jul 7 13:19:20 2024, in response to AMTRAK Service Outage, posted by Train Dude on Sat Jul 6 20:08:32 2024. " due to a circuit breaker malfunction,"They should upgrade to fuses. You just screw and unscrew them. |
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Re: AMTRAK Service Outage |
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Posted by Bill West on Sun Jul 7 13:50:50 2024, in response to Re: AMTRAK Service Outage, posted by jailhousedoc on Sun Jul 7 12:53:15 2024. Sorry guys, the overcurrent relays on the catenary feeders are only sensitive to overcurrent, not over temperature. Unlike fuses the relays are not particularly sensitive to temperature themselves. Sag of the catenary might be our cause here.Jailhouse -the NYP-New Haven stretch was also 25hz until ~1986 or so. Bill |
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| (1633727) | |
Re: AMTRAK Service Outage |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jul 7 14:14:27 2024, in response to Re: AMTRAK Service Outage, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Jul 6 21:49:57 2024. I thought it was 4 times. P=I2R. At half the voltage that’s twice the current. |
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| (1633728) | |
Re: AMTRAK Service Outage |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Jul 7 14:54:04 2024, in response to Re: AMTRAK Service Outage, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jul 7 14:14:27 2024. IAWTP. |
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| (1633729) | |
Re: AMTRAK Service Outage |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Jul 7 15:04:40 2024, in response to Re: AMTRAK Service Outage, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jul 7 14:14:27 2024. I thought it was 4 times. P=I2R. At half the voltage that’s twice the current.You are correct. I was thinking power drop and wrote down voltage drop. |
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| (1633730) | |
Re: AMTRAK Service Outage |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Jul 7 15:17:55 2024, in response to Re: AMTRAK Service Outage, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Sun Jul 7 13:19:20 2024. They should upgrade to fuses. You just screw and unscrew them.There's a lot more to fuses for high voltage fuses than a piece of copper-tin wire. The dielectric strength of air is about 30KV/cm. Consider a 12.5kv feed. Suppose a current results in melting 0.25 cm (~1/16 inch) of fuse wire. This would result in 12.5 kv spanning a gap of 0.25 cm. The electric field generated would be 12.5Kv/0.25 cm = 50 kv/cm. That's more than air's dielectric strength. The result would be a sustained arc between the gap left by the fuse that would continue supplying current. High voltage circuit breakers are very elaborate devices, with springs to insure against arcing among other things. They are big, heavy and expensive. |
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| (1633731) | |
Re: AMTRAK Service Outage |
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Posted by Bill West on Sun Jul 7 15:39:49 2024, in response to Re: AMTRAK Service Outage, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Jul 7 15:17:55 2024. Hi Stephen. Utilities got around that problem by using a long piece of fuse wire inside a fiber tube. The whole wire vaporizes and a powder filling the tube quenches the arc. The 12kv fuses outside my home are about 10 inches long and go off like a shotgun when they blow. Then a crew has to come out and replace them using a hot stick. My utility used fuses on small remote stations up to 138kv.Bill |
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| (1633734) | |
Re: AMTRAK Service Outage |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun Jul 7 16:27:06 2024, in response to Re: AMTRAK Service Outage, posted by Bill West on Sun Jul 7 13:50:50 2024. the NYP-New Haven stretch was also 25hz until ~1986 or so.Really? That means the M-2s and M-4s could run at 25hz as well? |
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Re: AMTRAK Service Outage |
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Posted by Bill West on Mon Jul 8 01:29:35 2024, in response to Re: AMTRAK Service Outage, posted by 3-9 on Sun Jul 7 16:27:06 2024. Yup. Metro North was 25hz when the cars were ordered but they foresaw the prospect of 60hz and included it in the spec.Bill |
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| (1633744) | |
Re: AMTRAK Service Outage |
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Posted by jailhousedoc on Mon Jul 8 10:37:12 2024, in response to Re: AMTRAK Service Outage, posted by Bill West on Sun Jul 7 13:50:50 2024. Then that means the EP-5 locomotives that according to The Deisel Spotters Guide - Update in which they are reported to be stored serviceable can no longer operate ? The GG-1 locomotives had their PCB laden transformers removed, so no more seeing them on the move. |
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| (1633746) | |
Re: AMTRAK Service Outage |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Jul 8 11:24:09 2024, in response to Re: AMTRAK Service Outage, posted by jailhousedoc on Mon Jul 8 10:37:12 2024. Thats a damn shame that not one GG-1 can be made roadworthy. In addition to the PCB laden transformers, I've heard that there is asbestos insulation contained within. Also they cant run with the current (no pun here) voltage in the wire. Thats strike one-two-three |
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| (1633748) | |
Re: AMTRAK Service Outage |
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Posted by Train Dude on Mon Jul 8 11:45:47 2024, in response to Re: AMTRAK Service Outage, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Jul 8 11:24:09 2024. Their huge mercury rectifiers were a major environmental danger. |
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| (1633750) | |
Re: AMTRAK Service Outage |
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Posted by Bill West on Mon Jul 8 14:23:03 2024, in response to Re: AMTRAK Service Outage, posted by Train Dude on Mon Jul 8 11:45:47 2024. Train Dude - I asume your mercury comment refers to the EP-5'sJailhouse -the EP-5's were retired by 1979, the freight GG1's by 1980 and the Amtrak GG1's by 1980 so Metro North going 60hz didn't matter. Bill |
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| (1633752) | |
Re: AMTRAK Service Outage |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jul 8 17:49:46 2024, in response to Re: AMTRAK Service Outage, posted by Bill West on Mon Jul 8 14:23:03 2024. One of the actual upgrades by PC aftyer they absorbed NH was using battered but still functional GG1s on Boston to DC trains to save on engine time waste at Penn. |
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| (1633753) | |
Re: AMTRAK Service Outage |
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Posted by jailhousedoc on Mon Jul 8 19:11:49 2024, in response to Re: AMTRAK Service Outage, posted by Train Dude on Mon Jul 8 11:45:47 2024. Wow - The GG-1 locomotives had ignitron rectifiers ? Wikipedia says otherwise - also in The Diesel Spotters Guide Update the GG-1 used AC motors, which Wikipedia also states. |
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| (1633754) | |
Re: AMTRAK Service Outage |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jul 8 21:26:11 2024, in response to Re: AMTRAK Service Outage, posted by jailhousedoc on Mon Jul 8 19:11:49 2024. I believe you are correct. The deployment of mercury rectifiers was post WW II. The Westinghopuse a,B set and Virginian ELs were the prototypes IINM. |
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Re: AMTRAK Service Outage |
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Posted by Train Dude on Mon Jul 8 21:56:14 2024, in response to Re: AMTRAK Service Outage, posted by jailhousedoc on Mon Jul 8 19:11:49 2024. Obviously an error on my part |
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Re: Amtrak Service Outage |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Jul 10 12:16:28 2024, in response to Re: AMTRAK Service Outage, posted by Train Dude on Mon Jul 8 11:45:47 2024. IIRC, the "problem" with the GG1s were their PCB-cooled transformers. |
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