Mexico City Metro crash

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Mexico City Metro crash
Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue May 4 02:57:02 2021 Collapsed overcrossing of road 13 dead LA Times https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2021-05-03/mexico-city-metro-overpass-collapses-onto-road-13-dead
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Re: Mexico City Metro crash update
Posted by Jackson Park B Train* on Tue May 4 03:03:48 2021, in response to Mexico City Metro crash, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue May 4 02:57:02 2021.* update from BBC @ midnight PDT now says 20 deceased.
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Re: Mexico City Metro crash update
Posted by Joe V* on Tue May 4 06:37:50 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro crash update, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue May 4 03:03:48 2021.* 23 dead. Are these rubber tired trains like Montreal ? Do they go outsioe ?
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Re: Mexico City Metro crash
Posted by Aaron* on Tue May 4 07:49:18 2021, in response to Mexico City Metro crash, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue May 4 02:57:02 2021.* Which is the 9 line???
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Re: Mexico City Metro crash update
Posted by Aaron* on Tue May 4 07:49:50 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro crash update, posted by Joe V on Tue May 4 06:37:50 2021.* All the lines are rubber tired and many go outside...
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Re: Mexico City Metro crash update
Posted by The Silence* on Tue May 4 08:52:08 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro crash update, posted by Aaron on Tue May 4 07:49:50 2021.* Actually, the line that this occurred on, Line 12, along with Line A, are Steel Wheel-Steel Rail.
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Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?)
Posted by SLRT* on Tue May 4 09:22:40 2021, in response to Mexico City Metro crash, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue May 4 02:57:02 2021.* This is Line 12, the newest line. I've been wracking my brain, but of all the accidents in New York and Chicago (including very ancient structure) I can't recall an actual structure collapse. Collisions, derailments, trains falling off structures, but collapse? Note; tracks have been washed out (recently on the Skokie Line) but not the same thing. I'd be looking for corruption in construction.
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Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?)
Posted by pragmatist* on Tue May 4 09:44:30 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?), posted by SLRT on Tue May 4 09:22:40 2021.* We have been fortunate in that NY has done extensive work on structural issues before collapse. I can think of some real issues on the 7 line, both on the steel and the concrete that had the potential of causing a disaster if not dealt with. Remember the timber shoring at the turn towards Quuensboro Plaza just before the Thompson Ave Bridge?
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Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?)
Posted by SLRT* on Tue May 4 09:59:50 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?), posted by pragmatist on Tue May 4 09:44:30 2021.* I don't remember the 7 Line thing. I do recall that for decades the retaining wall on the Sea Beach (adjacent to the LIRR/NH) was heavily shored up with timbers and all the E3 (now E1) track moved away from the edge. Then there was the truck incident hitting the Myrtle el pillars a short time before abandonment and that was shored up with timber decking. But Mexico City is a catastrophic failure. We've seen these on overhead walkways but I can't remember this happening on a train-bearing rapid transit structure.
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Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?)
Posted by Joe V* on Tue May 4 10:12:18 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?), posted by pragmatist on Tue May 4 09:44:30 2021.* I can only remember the closed-down remant of the Jamaica el became unstable just before demolition, and LIRR had to shut down the Main Line for a few hours for it to be removed before they intended to.
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Re: Mexico City Metro crash
Posted by Joe* on Tue May 4 10:22:07 2021, in response to Mexico City Metro crash, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue May 4 02:57:02 2021.* The media keep calling it an overpass. It is more like a el structure in the middle of parallel lanes of Avenida Tlhuac. --- Power is by catenary. --- One of the railfan videos of Linea 12 includes noisy screeching on steel wheels even when the curve is long, not sharp. --- Video of entire Linea 12 Youtube
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Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?)
Posted by SLRT* on Tue May 4 10:22:17 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?), posted by Joe V on Tue May 4 10:12:18 2021.* Do you know how it became unstable, since it was not under traffic? I also recall the Douglas Park CTA branch being truncated because of issues, but I don't think it fell down.
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Re: Mexico City Metro crash
Posted by MainR3664* on Tue May 4 10:24:14 2021, in response to Mexico City Metro crash, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue May 4 02:57:02 2021.* How awful. As soon as I heard o this, I wondered if it was Line 12, which I know has a troubled history. It was featured on :Engineering Disasters"
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Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?)
Posted by Joe V* on Tue May 4 10:28:13 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?), posted by SLRT on Tue May 4 10:22:17 2021.* I don't remember. Most of the el east and west of it had already been removed, leaving the hard part for last.
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Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?)
Posted by GojiMet86* on Tue May 4 10:54:53 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?), posted by SLRT on Tue May 4 09:59:50 2021.* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_City_Metro_overpass_collapse The newest line of the STC system, Line 12 (also known as the Golden line) was opened in October 2012. It faced issues from the onset of service, with trains on elevated sections forced to reduce speed over worries of derailing. Seventeen months later, the Atlalilco–Tláhuac section, where Tezonco and Olivos stations are located, was closed for twenty months to repair technical and structural faults. After the 2017 Puebla earthquake damaged Line 12 tracks, Olivos station was temporarily closed, but later was reopened and served as the provisional terminal station for one month. Neighbors had reported in 2017 that the section had visible structural cracks that could cause a future collapse. Transport authorities made repairs following these complaints. A column between Olivos and Nopalera stations that showed cracks in its base was repaired by the transport authority by January 2018. Concerns with the overall metro system have grown. In January 2021, a fire in STC's downtown headquarters killed one police officer and hospitalized 30 people. Six subway lines were offline for weeks. In April, one of the system's twelve lines shut down after a track fire.
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Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?)
Posted by BLE-NIMX* on Tue May 4 12:20:59 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?), posted by SLRT on Tue May 4 09:59:50 2021.* They have far more destructive earthquakes than we ever will. Some of the year 2000+ builds had shoddy work that didn't and aren't withstanding them
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Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?)
Posted by GojiMet86* on Tue May 4 12:26:46 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?), posted by GojiMet86 on Tue May 4 10:54:53 2021.* https://www.reddit.com/r/mexico/comments/n4h6mp/fotos_la_secci%C3%B3n_colapsada_de_la_l%C3%ADnea_12_del/ October 12, 2020 Take precautions! They ask us to share: Apparently, [the] metro structure at the height of Walmart [at] San Lorenzo Tezonco is uneven!!! (Personel that perform pertinent evaluations are appreciated)
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Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?)
Posted by GojiMet86* on Tue May 4 12:33:16 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?), posted by GojiMet86 on Tue May 4 12:26:46 2021.* https://www.eluniversal.com.mx/metropoli/antes-y-despues-asi-lucia-la-estacion-olivos-de-la-linea-12-del-metro
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Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?)
Posted by SLRT* on Tue May 4 14:08:43 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?), posted by GojiMet86 on Tue May 4 12:33:16 2021.* Oh, that looks bad...
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Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?)
Posted by Bill Newkirk* on Tue May 4 15:20:51 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?), posted by GojiMet86 on Tue May 4 12:33:16 2021.* I thought at first that the guide way holding the track slipped off the pier, but it looks like the guide way section split in half. If this section failed, are other sections waiting to fail ? I'd like to see the results of the investigation as to why the structure failed. If shoddy construction and or poor building materials is to blame , then they may have to demolish the entire elevated portion and replace it with a subway. Bill Newkirk
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Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?)
Posted by SLRT* on Tue May 4 15:33:31 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?), posted by Bill Newkirk on Tue May 4 15:20:51 2021.* They could also build a well-engineered structure. Or just abandon it.
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Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?)
Posted by Joe V* on Tue May 4 15:38:58 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?), posted by SLRT on Tue May 4 15:33:31 2021.* They could send for the blueprints and specs on how to build Dual Contract els. This thing they built looks like a cheap highway span.
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Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?)
Posted by SLRT* on Tue May 4 16:32:09 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?), posted by Joe V on Tue May 4 15:38:58 2021.* Which may have influenced the media calling it an "overpass>"
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Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?)
Posted by Joe* on Tue May 4 17:11:01 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?), posted by SLRT on Tue May 4 16:32:09 2021.* When Air Train jumps Rockaway Boulevard at the Van Wyck Expressway, the supporting columns appear more hefty than the ones along Avenida Tlhuac. There is a similarity, with a single row of columns supporting a two-track rapid transit line, but the Air Train engineering appears much more solid. --- There is a Vips restaurant just west of the crash site. During our 1984 explorations, this was a reliable chain with an extensive menu.
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Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?)
Posted by randyo* on Tue May 4 20:16:10 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?), posted by SLRT on Tue May 4 10:22:17 2021.* AFAIK, the Douglas is still operating in its entirety. I think you are referring to the Jackson Pk el which had tp be torn down between University and Stoney Island due to problems with the structure over the ICRR.
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Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?)
Posted by VictorM* on Tue May 4 21:20:29 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?), posted by SLRT on Tue May 4 09:22:40 2021.* As far as I know the closest we came to a collapse was on the old Liberty Av el at Drew St on Jan. 23, 1953 when a truck hit a column: Scroll to near bottom and click on photo. Miraculously, a train of C types made it over the damaged section without falling off.
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Re: Mexico City Metro crash
Posted by 3-9* on Tue May 4 23:28:05 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro crash, posted by MainR3664 on Tue May 4 10:24:14 2021.* It just earned itself a sequel. :-(
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Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?)
Posted by Jackson Park B Train* on Tue May 4 23:36:32 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?), posted by randyo on Tue May 4 20:16:10 2021.* The current Douglas was completely rebuilt this century IIRC. However, before CTA it did extend further west. As to Jackson Park, yes the bridge spanning the IC was condemned and removed. The entire structure across 63 was reworked but then a very loud pastor raised cain about noise during sermons.... PCCLcars cangive a better explanation of what transpired.
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Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?)
Posted by Alan Follett* on Tue May 4 23:46:15 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?), posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue May 4 23:36:32 2021.* The portion of the Doulas Park “L” that was abandoned on February 3, 1952 was surface trackage, between 54th Avenue and Oak Park Avenue. Structural problems weren’t the cause; I believe the segment’s major issue was frequent grade crossings. Alan Follett South San Francisco, CA
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Re: Mexico City Metro collapse
Posted by Olog-hai* on Wed May 5 01:37:03 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?), posted by SLRT on Tue May 4 09:22:40 2021.* There's that, and the fact that there are volcanoes not too far away so you have geological instability inherent.
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Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?)
Posted by SLRT* on Wed May 5 10:31:43 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?), posted by randyo on Tue May 4 20:16:10 2021.* Yes, you're right and I'm wrong. I was too lazy to check a map but guessed the branch name.
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Re: Mexico City Metro collapse
Posted by SLRT* on Wed May 5 10:35:48 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro collapse, posted by Olog-hai on Wed May 5 01:37:03 2021.* Yes, but you engineer for the environment. The known presence of earthquakes and volcanoes should have been taken into account in the engineering, as it now as in San Francisco, and as it wasn't back when collapsed expressway in Oakland was built.
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Re: Mexico City Metro collapse
Posted by Q65A* on Wed May 5 16:37:51 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro collapse, posted by SLRT on Wed May 5 10:35:48 2021.* In the wake of this tragedy, this chapter of the AREMA railway engineering manual probably will get read and re-read: https://www.arema.org/files/pubs/mre/2018/AREMA_MRE_Chapter_9_2018.pdf
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Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?)
Posted by 3-9* on Wed May 5 16:56:44 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?), posted by SLRT on Tue May 4 09:59:50 2021.* Now the retaining wall on the Sea Beach is shored up with steel beams. In other words, it's still it bad shape.
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Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?)
Posted by 3-9* on Wed May 5 16:57:37 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?), posted by pragmatist on Tue May 4 09:44:30 2021.* Didn't the Sixth Avenue el have problems with sagging before it was demolished?
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Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?)
Posted by GojiMet86* on Fri May 7 00:52:34 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?), posted by GojiMet86 on Tue May 4 12:33:16 2021.* I've gathered photos from different sources. The third track in the photos is a pocket track.
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Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?)
Posted by K. Trout* on Fri May 7 01:46:04 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?), posted by Bill Newkirk on Tue May 4 15:20:51 2021.* According to Wikipedia, regarding Line 12: From the onset of service, Line 12 faced issues with trains on elevated sections, necessitating speeds as low as 5 km/h (3 mph) on some segments due to derailment concerns.[6][15] The Atlalilco–Tláhuac section, including Olivos and Tezonco stations, was closed 17 months after the line's opening for a further 20 months to repair technical and structural faults.[6][18] A special commission was created to investigate the causes and to hold officials accountable for the errors that caused the closure.[19] Independent consulting group SYSTRA was asked to submit a report on their investigation. After they reviewed over 2,900 documents and tested the tracks,[20] the group concluded that errors were present during the "planning, design, construction and operation" of the line.[21] source (in Spanish) Now, I'm no expert, but "planning, design, construction and operation" sounds the entire lifetime of a metro line.
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Re: Mexico City Metro crash
Posted by Joe* on Fri May 7 09:08:05 2021, in response to Mexico City Metro crash, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue May 4 02:57:02 2021.* The link to ElPais below is thanks to a Mexico City correspondent Jorge Monzon posted at urbanrailnews(at)groups.io El Pais provides helpful graphics. Line 12 crash
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Re: Mexico City Metro collapse
Posted by SLRT* on Fri May 7 10:11:34 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro collapse, posted by Q65A on Wed May 5 16:37:51 2021.* And a good thing that would be.
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Re: Mexico City Metro crash update
Posted by nh153* on Sun May 9 07:41:58 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro crash update, posted by The Silence on Tue May 4 08:52:08 2021.* Mexico City is North America's second largest system, after NYC. In the core of the city, all the lines are underground. But outside many are elevated, like NYC and like Line 12 which had the accident. This one had steel wheels but most lines have rubber tires, like Montreal and some Paris lines. Critics say transit and government officials ignored reports that the elevated tracks had been weakened by the 2017 earthquake. Claudia Sheinbaum, mayor of Mexico City, had been seen as a candidate to be the country's first female and first Jewish president. But she's among those getting blame for this, even though she pledged $2 billion to improve subway safety. I'd like to visit Mexico City one day, ride on the subway and enjoy what I see on travel shows as a great city to visit.
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Re: Mexico City Metro crash update
Posted by Dr. Casca* on Mon May 10 04:24:10 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro crash update, posted by nh153 on Sun May 9 07:41:58 2021.* It's worth a visit, the system is quite extensive, and you get to see many parts of the city. There are quite a few sections that are either elevated or surface...and there are many different types of rolling stock, despite the similar side profiles. Two lines are steel-wheeled, overhead catenary lines, while the other 10 are thrd-rail, rubber-tired lines. Lines A and B (originally to be numbered Lines 10 and 11) and one station on Line 2, reach outside of the CMDX limits. Here's my collection of videos from CDMX a few years ago: CDMX (Ciudad de Mexico) Metro Compilation - The Cleanairbus Production Studio --Dr. C
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Re: Mexico City Metro crash
Posted by Joe* on Mon May 10 09:45:39 2021, in response to Mexico City Metro crash, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue May 4 02:57:02 2021.* Claire and I spent a week in Mexico City around 1984. My memory could be faulty, but here goes: There is a striking resemblance between the Mexican Metro and the one in Montreal, maybe because both used architects of the same school. In 1967 I was familiar with Montreal's Berri-de-Montigny, with the major crossing of a north-south line visible above the east-west route. Fifteen years later, I met the same design at Balderas (if memory is correct), with one line visibly crossing the other underground, something you do not see in New York. --- Mexico had a major difference from Montreal: outdoor running. Somewhere south of Indios Verdes, in heavy rain, our operator ran a red. The brakes applied remarkably well, no skid, no toppled standees.
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Re: Mexico City Metro crash
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Mon May 10 10:21:34 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro crash, posted by Joe on Mon May 10 09:45:39 2021.* The DC Metro does the same thing at its three downtown transfer points.
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Re: Mexico City Metro crash
Posted by Joe* on Mon May 10 11:02:05 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro crash, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon May 10 10:21:34 2021.* Thank you, spider=pig. I now recall the view in Washington. Have a transfer visible like that really makes the transfer easy.
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Re: Mexico City Metro crash update
Posted by Bill from Maspeth* on Mon May 10 22:31:49 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro crash update, posted by Dr. Casca on Mon May 10 04:24:10 2021.* Nicely done video. Clean system.....they like orange....looks like they lack air conditioning, but I bet their passengers deal with the heat much better than us northerners.
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Re: Mexico City Metro crash update
Posted by Dr. Casca* on Wed May 12 18:11:21 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro crash update, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Mon May 10 22:31:49 2021.* There is no air conditioning on the trains. Just the fans and open windows.
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Re: Mexico City Metro crash update
Posted by Bill from Maspeth* on Wed May 12 20:52:39 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro crash update, posted by Dr. Casca on Wed May 12 18:11:21 2021.* Thanks.
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Re: Mexico City Metro crash update
Posted by LuchAAA* on Wed May 12 21:57:32 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro crash update, posted by Dr. Casca on Wed May 12 18:11:21 2021.* the last time I was down there I remember railfanning in DF and MTY. I rode during rush-hour and there are a cop and temporary partition at the car marker for the first car. No men were allowed to ride the first car. It was women-only. I also remember how quiet the wheels were on the trains. DF is great. Lucha Libre at Arena Mexico then the subway to the hotel.
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Re: Mexico City Metro crash update
Posted by Dr. Casca* on Thu May 13 20:50:14 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro crash update, posted by LuchAAA on Wed May 12 21:57:32 2021.* These days, the last two cars or first two cars on each train (last or first three on Line 1) are women-only, well....women and children under 12 IIRC. And yes, there are city cops (or are they federal?) on each platform at the partitions.
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Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?)
Posted by Steamdriven* on Fri May 14 11:42:14 2021, in response to Re: Mexico City Metro collapse (and here?), posted by GojiMet86 on Tue May 4 12:33:16 2021.* How long was it sagging like that before it fell? Seems like there was plenty of advance warning.
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