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| Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR (1471832) | |
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| (1472002) | |
Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Apr 8 12:02:39 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Apr 8 08:42:51 2018. Agreed - if an outbound express track train could go to New Haven without blocking a White Plains bound local train, it would do a lot.I was first going to say the Hudson Line one is less disruptive, but then I realized that the real reason that one doesn't cause delays is that they wrong-rail a lot of outbound Hudson Line trains onto the inbound local track between 125th and GCT (just to avoid disruption in the South Bronx), reducing the capacity of that track considerably. |
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| (1472003) | |
Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Apr 8 12:04:44 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Sun Apr 8 11:56:05 2018. the one-time costs of extending all of those 4-car platforms to 10-cars would be a drop in the bucketA whole bunch of stations have obstacles at each end, so that you'd have to remove a bridge or something. |
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| (1472004) | |
Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by lirr42 on Sun Apr 8 12:05:02 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by AlM on Sun Apr 8 07:00:40 2018. The issue at Woodlawn Junction is not the signal system, but rather the track layout. It's basically a choke point where 4 New Haven Line tracks constrict to two, and outbound traffic has to cross in front of local Harlem Line traffic.Rebuilding the junction so a train could go from any one of the four Harlem Line tracks to a four-track New Haven Line without having to cross another track at grade would increase capacity and reduce delays for both the Harlem and New Haven Lines. The same should be done for the Hudson Line junction at Mott Haven...reduce as many grade-level crossings as much as possible. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (1472005) | |
Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by lirr42 on Sun Apr 8 12:13:03 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Joe V on Sun Apr 8 11:38:11 2018. The success of PoP is highly dependent on enforcement. NJT does very little fare enforcement, so people have historically taken advantage of it and just taken the risk. However, there are systems elsewhere in the world that converted to PoP and recovered more than 100% of fare revenue, since one person paying the penalty fare offsets the loss of 9 others not paying their fare. As long as they stay on top of enforcement, particularly during the initial transition period, it wouldn't mean any lost revenue. It could even mean an increase in revenue. They could even install turnstiles at most of the stations in the city (i.e. all city stations except the big terminals...NYK/NYG/ATL/HPA/LIC) to cut losses from short intra-city trips.And, besides, when you're talking about a $250 million reduction in direct operating costs each year, a few people skipping out on a $10 ticket is not going to break the bank... Plus, it's not like conductors collect every single fare now, especially on the LIRR. I'm on trains all the time when the conductors just don't collect fares, even when conditions are not crowded. Then there's all those short intermediate riders that almost never get their tickets collected. |
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| (1472006) | |
Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by lirr42 on Sun Apr 8 12:15:35 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by AlM on Sun Apr 8 12:04:44 2018. Between the two railroads the MTA could have a half-billion dollars more each year, if a bridge needs to be widened, a grade crossing relocated, etc. it is not the end of the world.And there are of course other benefits to longer platforms, including reduced crowding as people can spread out and sit in any car, and reduced dwell times and delays since you won't have to wait for people to walk up if they're in the wrong car. |
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| (1472014) | |
Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Apr 8 13:35:09 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Sun Apr 8 12:15:35 2018. Just saying it's way more than a drop in the bucket. |
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| (1472039) | |
Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Apr 8 17:20:16 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Apr 8 10:52:01 2018. Really?What you are really talking about is jobs,and the preservation of them. For each one of those situations you described,a modern railcar can deal with,along with current technical upgrades in fare control. |
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| (1472066) | |
Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 8 21:48:23 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Sun Apr 8 12:13:03 2018. The success of PoP is highly dependent on enforcementThat's not success. It makes riding the train very unfriendly and uncomfortable due to all the police tactics, and pushes people towards automobiles, resulting in diminished revenue. |
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| (1472067) | |
Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 8 21:51:15 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Sat Apr 7 21:18:15 2018. Sure, if you want revenue to crash and burn.European RRs don't care due to being state subsidized. That's why railroads carry less than 5 percent of land-borne freight on that continent. |
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| (1472068) | |
Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 8 21:55:16 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Joe V on Sun Apr 8 11:38:11 2018. Well, I don't think Newark Subway fare recovery was at 100 percent with the PCCs; certainly it was among the highest, though.Also, POP started when the PCCs were still running. It coincided with the conversion of the wires from trolley wire to complex catenary, and the installation of those temporary pantographs on the PCC cars. And 30 percent? If it climbed that high, it has to be due to the redoubled enforcement at Newark Penn. |
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| (1472069) | |
Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 8 21:56:57 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Apr 8 08:46:43 2018. Go to 2x2 seating, the extra aisle space becomes standee roomOtherwise known as fall-down room. Especially in the case of hard braking. |
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| (1472070) | |
Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 8 21:58:17 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Sun Apr 8 12:05:02 2018. Where's the money?Improved signaling will still improve the throughput. |
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| (1472074) | |
Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Apr 8 23:05:37 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 8 21:48:23 2018. How much different is POP from the individual fare collection methods used on commuter and Mainline RRs? |
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| (1472077) | |
Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 8 23:43:10 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by randyo on Sun Apr 8 23:05:37 2018. POP inspectors are inspectors and not conductors; they can't take payment for cash fare or issue tickets for such. Tickets sold from TVMs are not automatically validated either, so POP cops can and do issue fines for tickets that aren't validated. Not to mention, there is no permanent presence of such inspectors on the trains; they travel around, and sometimes you won't see one for the whole journey. Also, platforms on POP systems are fare-paid areas, so if you want to use the platform to take pictures of trains, you have to have a valid ticket or else the POP cop can hit you with a fine on the platform. |
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| (1472078) | |
Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 8 23:49:36 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Sun Apr 8 11:56:05 2018. The answer to your question is the responsibilities of conductors, assistant conductors, and collectors would either be assumed by the engineperson or replaced by technologyThat's not an answer. Never mind the costs of railroading not going down in spite of whatever they do outside the US. Proof-of-payment and eliminating conductors is very likely the single biggest thing the railroad's can do to improve service That'd be the single biggest thing to make service worse. |
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| (1472080) | |
Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 9 00:12:36 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Jace on Fri Apr 6 17:23:18 2018. I wonder if this is at all related to the apparent sinking of the BQX projectSinking? When was it ever floating? |
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| (1472081) | |
Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Apr 9 01:22:59 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 8 23:43:10 2018. Not all POP systems have actual platforms. |
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| (1472082) | |
Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 9 03:21:27 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 8 23:43:10 2018. Also, platforms on POP systems are fare-paid areasThat's not universally true, and certainly not something intrinsic to POP systems. I have taken pictures or otherwise stood on the platform (or platform-equivalent) of at least a dozen POP systems (not all of them trains) and never had any problem. Some of those systems had the fare machines on the platforms, making it impossible to declare the platforms "fare-paid areas." |
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| (1472083) | |
Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 9 03:23:09 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Sun Apr 8 12:13:03 2018. It's incredibly difficult to combine POP with a zoned fare system since fare inspectors can't determine where you boarded or where you're going— if the inspectors check me at Hicksville and I'm holding a valid two-zone intermediate ticket, how can they tell I boarded at Penn Station and I'm going to Yaphank? You could make the tickets specify origin and destination, but that would greatly limit flexibility— your Ronkonkoma monthly isn't valid on a Babylon train so buy a separate ticket or brave the delays.If you switch to a flat fare, then POP works more easily, but it also opens other options, such as the Staten Island approach where tickets are checked (or fare enforcement is conducted) only at city terminals (and maybe Jamaica, Woodside, 125th, Fordham, etc). Intermediate trips are free, but that's only a small chunk of the traffic anyway. Or alternatively, another option would just be to make all transit free, but that would be vehemently opposed by the bitter unpleasant people who can't see anyone else get anything remotely valuable without obsessing over whether they "deserve" it. |
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| (1472084) | |
Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 9 05:30:11 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 9 00:12:36 2018. Sinking? When was it ever floating?It was dead in the water from the outset, but it floated due to the buildup of gases during decomposition. With Duh Blasio's latest announcement officially bursting the project, it is now sinking— the next step of the decomposition process. |
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| (1472091) | |
Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 07:25:55 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 8 21:48:23 2018. Do you know what pushes people towards automobiles more than anything else? High fares. I drive most days now because the train has gotten so expensive, even from Ronkonkoma. And the MTA's 18th century fare collection system is one of the single largest factors keeping fares high.People who are opposing PoP tend to just completely ignore the substantial cost savings not having 2-6 people on a train to collect fares... Other prior PoP implementations across the US and around the world have demonstrated "All the police tactics" do nothing to decrease ridership or revenue, and in fact, the lower fares and additional service made possible by PoP lead to increased ridership and increased revenue. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 07:27:41 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 8 21:51:15 2018. European RRs don't care due to being state subsidized. And the LIRR and Metro-North are not subsidized? Very funny. The MTA and RATP in Paris are subsided to about the same extent, with about 60% of revenue coming from taxes and fees. |
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| (1472093) | |
Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 07:29:16 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 8 21:58:17 2018. Where's the money? PoP would save the MTA upwards of $500 million each year...that's a lot of additional money that can be put towards projects that can increase capacity and speed service. |
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| (1472094) | |
Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 07:34:22 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by randyo on Sun Apr 8 23:05:37 2018. PoP is very different from individual fare collection...instead of having between 2 and 6 or more people onboard a train to collect fares, like the LIRR and Metro-North do now, passengers would be responsible for validating their own fares prior to boarding, then would only have to prove they have paid upon the request of a fare inspector.Then you need to have only one fare inspector ride the train randomly inspecting tickets. If you have a valid ticket for your trip, then you're fine. If you don't, you either have to pay a penalty fare (which is several times the regular one-way fare you would get at the ticket machine) directly to the fare inspector, you would have to agree to pay an invoice for the penalty fare, or would receive a summons for failing to have a valid ticket. The cost savings from not having multiple people on each and every train to collect tickets would be on the order of hundreds of millions of dollars each year, making a lot more money available to improve service and undertake other capital projects. PoP also dramatically reduces the marginal cost of adding more service (since all you need to add is an engineperson, not a full train crew of 3 or more people), making our dollars go much further when it comes to adding service. |
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| (1472095) | |
Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 07:38:32 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 8 23:43:10 2018. they can't take payment for cash fare or issue tickets for such Wrong...there's no rule or law that says that. If a fare inspector happens upon somebody that hasn't paid their fare, they can just take the payment of the higher penalty fare and issue a ticket for the trip. Many agencies issue civil or criminal summons as an additional deterrent, but that's by no means a requirement, especially if the penalty fare is high. Also, platforms on POP systems are fare-paid areas, so if you want to use the platform to take pictures of trains, you have to have a valid ticket or else the POP cop can hit you with a fine on the platform. Wrong...that's certainly not a universal truth. And even if it were, people using the platform to take pictures of trains is an extremely small minority of those that would benefit from PoP. The notion that would be a valid reason to spend a half-billion dollars a year on conductors instead of PoP is hilarious. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 07:43:42 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 9 03:23:09 2018. It's incredibly difficult to combine POP with a zoned fare system since fare inspectors can't determine where you boarded or where you're going— if the inspectors check me at Hicksville and I'm holding a valid two-zone intermediate ticket, how can they tell I boarded at Penn Station and I'm going to Yaphank? That's not true. Plenty of rail systems use PoP with zoned fares. For that trick to work you would have to know exactly where and when the inspector would come, so that's a non-issue as most rail passengers are unable to predict the future. If you buy a cheap Hicksville to Farmingdale ticket, you would only get off if the inspector comes between Hicksville and Farmingdale. If the inspector comes at Mineola, you would be subject to the full penalty fare. |
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| (1472099) | |
Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon Apr 9 08:16:13 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 9 03:21:27 2018. I agree with most of your post, but just pointing out that the presence of a fare machine in a location does not necessarily make that location non-fare-paid. Some POP vehicles also have these machines on board - such that it is clear that if you do not yet have your fare paid (and you are on the vehicle) you should at least be in the process of purchasing. Conceivably, the rule even in a designated area that is transit property could be "fare paid or payment in progress" or something like that. I haven't encountered anything like this yet though. They could just "get you" for loitering in the end I guess. |
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| (1472107) | |
Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by sloth on Mon Apr 9 09:22:53 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 07:34:22 2018. You are aware that the conductor has other essential functions to train operation, right? |
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| (1472110) | |
Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 10:04:31 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by sloth on Mon Apr 9 09:22:53 2018. There are no legal, regulatory, or contractual requirements that say there has to be a conductor on the train (nevermind 2-6+ conductors). All of the conductors' other responsibilities can either be assumed by the engineer or replaced by technology. |
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| (1472112) | |
Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Apr 9 10:19:25 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 10:04:31 2018. There *ARE* Regulatory reasons to have a conductor on board the train. ALL Trains mush have an engineer and conductor.How about tapping and and tapping out at all stations (except NYP GCT ATL) Eastbounds fail to tap out are charged the Montauk fare. This is done in Japan, so surely it can be done here. ROAR |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 10:35:50 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Apr 9 10:19:25 2018. Yes, all trains must have an engineer and a conductor, but they can be the same person, so long as the engineperson is dual-certified, as is already the case on the LIRR. There's presently no requirement they be two separate people. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 9 10:59:06 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 07:25:55 2018. Do you know what pushes people towards automobiles more than anything else? High faresThose will stay high if LIRR goes POP. California commuter trains have gone POP and no fare reductions ensued. It's a factor of government control. Neither high nor low fares will increase revenue out of the farebox. I posted this thread a little over six years ago. The problem has gotten worse since then, not better. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 9 11:01:37 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by randyo on Mon Apr 9 01:22:59 2018. Only in the case of street running. But the trolley stop can still be a fare-paid area. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 9 11:04:02 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 07:29:16 2018. POP would cost the MTA billions due to encouraging fare evasion, lawsuits due to increased violent crime, and the costs of installing TVMs at every blasted station all the way to Greenport, Wassaic and Montauk. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 9 11:05:56 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Apr 9 10:19:25 2018. Japan is not the USA. Stop thinking of Yamato as a free society. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 11:13:16 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 9 11:04:02 2018. Wassaic and Montauk already have TVM's. Just 13 stations: Willets Point, Bellport, Yaphank through Greenport, and the Waterbury Branch stations don't have TVM's...all others have at least one or two. 13 ticket machines...that'll cost billions!? |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 9 11:21:34 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 11:13:16 2018. Yes, it'll cost billions as it has already cost, not only in installation but maintenance. It's absolutely ridiculous to install TVMs at locations with infrequent service, and on connecting trains (most of the Wassaic trains are shuttles), having someone play fare inspector is not going to be a "thing", so there are going to be a lot of GCT-Southeast tickets sold if MN goes POP.I see you can't argue any of my other points. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by ntrainride on Mon Apr 9 11:22:47 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Sun Apr 8 11:56:05 2018. you have too much faith in technology. as in, there is not enough computational processing capacity anywhere to ensure that "driverless cars" would not rack up dozens of road kills during a regular day of driving on manhattan streets."a train" is subject to non-predictable real world events. humans on the scene. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 9 11:28:40 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 10:35:50 2018. Yeah, one person for a thousand passengers. Real safe. Bad enough on the subways; and in some cases even worse, with nobody but the passengers on the train.Here is another thread I posted, this time a couple of months ago, about the disaster that POP really is. |
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| (1472128) | |
Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 12:45:15 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 9 11:21:34 2018. NJTransit has TVM's at every stations--including the tiniest ones with fewer riders than any other station on MN or LI--yet they haven't yet ceased to exist due to "losing billions".Your arguments are quickly becoming hyperbolic and disingenuous. There are few, if any, downsides to transitioning to PoP and saving a half-billion dollars in labor costs alone each year, as evidenced by countless other rail systems across the US and around the world that have done so and still live to tell the tale. There is simply no reason to have three to seven people on LIRR and Metro-North trains doing the job one person can do in Europe. If you want to argue against basic modernization on the grounds of preservation, that's one thing, but be transparent: what's best for the fare-paying riders and the economy of this region is then not your priority. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 12:48:56 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 9 11:28:40 2018. You say having only one person on the train is a dangerous thing but you ignore the fact that it already happens all the time on rail systems in other cities on the world and there are seldom any issues. Millions of people ride trains where there is only one driver onboard every single day and live to tell the tale. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Apr 9 13:10:29 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 12:45:15 2018. If it's so lacking in obstacles, why hasn't the MTA done it?By the way, and perhaps irrelevantly, on quite a few occasions I have seen an MTA rail conductor engage in a work-related activity other than collecting tickets. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by sloth on Mon Apr 9 13:14:07 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by sloth on Mon Apr 9 09:22:53 2018. I'm specifically thinking of all the drill moves that are performed in locations with manually operated switches. You don't want engineers shoving blind, or changing ends multiple times in a move, or running back 12 cars to get a switch. Not efficient in the least, nor is stationing a drill crew in a place like Far Rockaway where that move only happens four times a day. The current methods of door operation also require an assistant conductor. Technology may eventually change all this, but there is also a social cost of replacing good jobs with McJobs or no jobs that the bean counters do not include in their bean count. A computer can be programmed to count beans as well. Perhaps I should counsel young assistant conductors to find a good expressway off ramp and write a snappy slogan on a cardboard sign instead. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 13:17:31 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by AlM on Mon Apr 9 13:10:29 2018. The MTA hasn't done it because it doesn't have the courage to stand up to the conductors' union, despite the fact that modernization could probably be done without significant workforce reductions and would be a substantial benefit to their customers.As I've said several times before, other aspects of the conductors' work can either be assumed by the engineer or replaced by technology. I've had this argument countless times before and nobody has come up with any actual responsibilities that can't be done by the engineer or technology (because there isn't any). Everybody says they do other stuff, but nobody can say just what they do that engineers or technology can't. Needless to say, nobody has provided any defensible reason why there needs to be anywhere from 2 to 6 conductors on every train. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Apr 9 13:41:08 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Apr 9 10:19:25 2018. Fifty years ago when the Illinois Central was looking to streamline their Electric Suburban service, they were a bleeding edge adopter of an electronic faregate/ticket system. At the time the PR materials claimed that LIRR was installing the same system. If memory serves the vendor was some piece of Litton (the steotype conglomerate built on DOD profits). Clearly that didn't happen (or last?) at LIRR--perhaps a bit of anti-automation lobbying by workers?IC had terrible reliability problems at first, but the system stabilized and was functional until METRA took over and scrapped it, regressing to the same old, same old paper ticket punched by conductors as was the case on other parts of their operations. As Caltrain shows daily, tag on, tag off, with random POP checks works. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Apr 9 15:10:40 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by sloth on Mon Apr 9 13:14:07 2018. Look. We replaced individual guards on elevated cars w/MU door control a century ago. We don't manually punch paper tickets on the subway. A single conductor for door control, a human to hail in emergency, (some subway systems have emergency intercoms so pax can speak to the T/O), is fine. The fare collection should all be tag, tag at readers on the platforms. A few fare checkers, certainly not as skilled or highly paid as a conductor, can do random POP sweeps. The idea is for the sweeps to hit the sweet spot of deterrence w/o being every car on every train. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 9 15:28:17 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Apr 9 13:41:08 2018. 1968 was fifty years ago. The LIRR had already been taken over by the MCTA two years prior, and the IC was being hamstrung by the ICC who would neither ease up on regulation or allow it to raise fares.As Caltrain shows daily, tag on, tag off, with random POP checks works Things improved since they gave conductors back the duty of inspecting tickets. For a while, they were instructed to not do that. Have a look here. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 9 15:40:55 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 12:48:56 2018. you ignore the fact that it already happens all the time on rail systems in other cities on the world and there are seldom any issuesHow do you know there are "seldom any issues"? Merely because they don't get reported? POP fare evasion is a huge issue, and at least that does get reported. Stop dodging. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 9 15:44:56 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 13:17:31 2018. The MTA hasn't done it because it doesn't have the courage to stand up to the conductors' unionYou must have missed the huge transportation worker strike in France. That's brought trains, buses and even planes to a standstill. Wildcat strikes are legal in most European countries; they don't write binding contracts for specific periods of time. other aspects of the conductors' work can either be assumed by the engineer or replaced by technology IOW, the surveillance state. Which of course won't stop violence or fare evasion. nobody has provided any defensible reason why there needs to be anywhere from 2 to 6 conductors on every train Stop projecting. You haven't provided a defensible reason as to why not. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 9 15:51:53 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 12:45:15 2018. NJTransit has TVM's at every stationsAnd it's been a disaster. Without even going to POP on the commuter rail. yet they haven't yet ceased to exist due to "losing billions" That doesn't mean the costs thereof are mitigated. You're arguing in circles. NJT is incredibly profligate in its spending on bad things; why else are their average speeds and maintenance suffering? There are few, if any, downsides to transitioning to PoP I've cited two articles showing the huge downside and costs to the public and you've summarily ignored them. Posting opinion as fact as you do is what's disingenuous. what's best for the fare-paying riders and the economy of this region . . . is not POP. |
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