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| Re: G Train Loop (1440236) | |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sat Jun 24 22:51:47 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by AlM on Sat Jun 24 22:29:31 2017. I'm sorry to hear that. But the current thinking is that driverless cars would need the ex-driver/passenger to be available to take over if there is a problem. So it may not have helped your mom. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Jun 24 23:20:56 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by AlM on Sat Jun 24 15:25:19 2017. Why would there be a delay in getting the train out of the station since the arriving crew is the crew taking the train into the relay position? |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by displaced angeleno on Sat Jun 24 23:30:48 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Michael549 on Thu Jun 22 17:58:13 2017. Is it possible this man was being sarcastic and just seeing if anyone was going to correct his obvious error? |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Jun 25 05:02:22 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by italianstallion on Sat Jun 24 22:51:47 2017. Agreed. That's not sufficient to really matter. It might reduce the accident rate to some degree, however. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Jun 25 05:04:04 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by randyo on Sat Jun 24 23:20:56 2017. Because according to your description the train is still being cleared of passengers before being brought into the relay track. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sun Jun 25 05:36:12 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by AlM on Sat Jun 24 15:25:19 2017. yes.The delays are so bad they can extend to Roosevelt. On average they only get backed up to Woodhaven. If a train is being double ended, it should not be fumigated. If it's going in and out of the relay position, and proper announcements are made, then the needs of the service should come before the special needs of a few passengers. If you go to Continental you can see trains terminating and dwelling for very very long periods of time. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by pelham Exp on Sun Jun 25 11:01:29 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by randyo on Sat Jun 24 14:57:04 2017. It reversed on the yard lead....Did not go around the loop. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sun Jun 25 11:47:42 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by LuchAAA on Sun Jun 25 05:36:12 2017. From a previous message:"If a train is being double ended, it should not be fumigated. ..." Here's the problem as I see it. At Continental Avenue a local R-train or M-train terminating at that stop has one of three paths in front of it, a) it can be sent to the far end of one of the two relay tracks, b) it can be sent to the front end of one of the two relay tracks, and c) or the train can be sent directly to the train yard where it could either remain in the yard over night, repaired and/or cleaned or in a period of time sent back into passenger service. Unlike the #6 train at Brooklyn Bridge - leaving a rider "stuck" on the train is really not a big deal because the train will very soon re-enter passenger service - there's no telling what may actually occur at Continental Avenue or when those trains will return to passenger service. The strong attempt to be sure that the trains are empty of passengers (what folks often refer to as fumigation) - rather than to take it on faith - given that almost anything is possible day to day is the better course of action. (I've said before - I hate the word "fumigation" to refer to the process of removing paying human being customers from a subway train as they were vermin or pests. Much too often in architecture and other areas - it seems that the world would be a much better place if humans were not around! Stepping off soapbox.) Now speeding up the movement of trains with drill train operators, switchmen, regular train operators and dispatchers - etc. is a whole other topic. Making sure that regular citizens are not on the trains when they are not supposed to be one the tracks is a good thing to do. Can that task be improved up some how is always up for debate. Mike |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Jun 25 11:52:32 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Michael549 on Sun Jun 25 11:47:42 2017. You mean, when a train pulls into Ctl, personnel don't know whether the train will be quickly put back into southbound service from the relay or not? |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sun Jun 25 12:15:29 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by AlM on Sun Jun 25 11:52:32 2017. From a previous message:"You mean, when a train pulls into Ctl, personnel don't know whether the train will be quickly put back into southbound service from the relay or not?" Exactly. Right - given the uncertainty it is good that every M & R train is cleared of passengers between it leaves the 71st Avenue local platform for the layup / yard access area. Mike |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Jun 25 15:42:37 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by LuchAAA on Sun Jun 25 05:36:12 2017. This could all be wrapped up neatly if they moved the relay where it is supposed to be.179th can turn all those trains without issues. Everyone knows THAT is as far as the subway goes...so theres no reason to mess around. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Sun Jun 25 15:43:46 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by LuchAAA on Sun Jun 25 05:36:12 2017. "...the needs of the service should come before the special needs of a few passengers..."The primary argument has nothing to do with the needs of the passengers, but rather the safety of the crew. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Jun 25 15:48:26 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Andrew Saucci on Sun Jun 25 15:43:46 2017. Thank you. |
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Posted by ftgreeneg on Sun Jun 25 15:51:01 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by AlM on Sun Jun 25 11:52:32 2017. That is true. At CTL they have something called a long relay train does relay downstairs but go towards the yd and comes back on the relay tcks this usually happens if trains are coming in out of order (ex two M's in a row comes and an R needs to leave SB in between) or there's just a back up in the relay. In these cases of the long relays the relays usually take at LEAST 20 min don't want a passenger stuck in the relay that long.In terms of the train crews knowing if they have a long relay it's usually a last second notification at CTL by the dispatcher. Heck sometime they don't know. The dispatcher makes the determination. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Jun 25 15:55:35 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jun 21 15:26:26 2017. Yup. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by ftgreeneg on Sun Jun 25 15:59:01 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jun 22 11:25:18 2017. Wow... |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by ftgreeneg on Sun Jun 25 16:12:19 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jun 23 19:48:35 2017. That's debatable esp on the 46's. The 46's you havr to lock and unlock every end door to change ends there's no end door unlock switch withouy use of the key and obviously a T/O needs to take the key with him/her. That process would take some time esp at a busy terminal like 71st. The NTT aren't that bad to change ends solo. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sun Jun 25 19:39:18 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Edwards! on Sun Jun 25 15:42:37 2017. i think in cases where you know the T/O is swiching ends alone, it makes sense to fumigate because there is the potential for conflict.If the train is double ended, just open and close like a regular station stop and move into the relay. This would help Continental. But no one cares. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sun Jun 25 19:44:40 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Michael549 on Sun Jun 25 11:47:42 2017. why do you signature your post?Yes, there is a "long relay" and Continental. At Rush Hour, trains should not be "cleaned out"(I won't say fumigate so you don't get triggered). Since it's Rush Hour and trains ain't scheduled for a lay up at that point, they there should be no concern about "packages" because the train is coming right out for service. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Sun Jun 25 20:25:52 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Michael549 on Sun Jun 25 11:47:42 2017. I have probably said this before, but it bears repeating here. With modern technology (i. e. a camera or two in every car and a monitor in the C/R's cab) and possibly some measures to prevent people from hiding under the seats if necessary, checking that a train is clear should not take an unreasonable amount of time (as opposed to having someone actually walk the length of the train). Only if someone actually has remained on the train and needs to be cleared individually would the relay process be delayed. They're going to have this eventually anyway apart from security concerns in relays, so hopefully at some point we will get some relief from relay delays. |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Jun 25 21:58:34 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Jun 25 15:48:26 2017. That is mitigated by putting a rear T/O on the moment it arrives at the relay terminal. The crew does not need to walk the train. Once that is done, it is no more unsafe than having a lightly patronized train sitting between stations in the conga line for 5 minutes. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sun Jun 25 23:50:50 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Andrew Saucci on Sun Jun 25 20:25:52 2017. There is a very logical reason why there should be a check of some kind that passengers are NOT on-board a terminating train that is about to go into the layup/relay area (for an un-knowable amount of time) or into the train yard.I'm hoping that the above statement is not a debate-able one. There is a question about WHAT KIND of check, and SPEEDY-NESS of that check to should be done to reduce the "conga-line" of trains, etc. This kind of a check could be done by having the train operator walk through the whole train car by car; by having both the train operator and the conductor separately walk "half" of the train; by having station personnel on the platforms visually checking the cars and signaling an "all clear", or by having cameras in each car and a monitor screen viewed by the train operator and conductor before that train is "closed up" at the terminal stop. There are a number of ways to conduct this task. Debating the ways the task is performed is not the same as saying that the task does not "need" to be performed. Mike PS - I remember a few years back a woman somehow remained on a #5 train at Bowling Green (when the #5 used the South Ferry Loop track) who caused a great deal of ruckus. She did not take kindly to being arrested and ticketed - but her ruckus caused #4 and #5 service to be disrupted in both directions for an hour or two. I'm sympathetic to the need to clear terminating trains of riders especially where their presence will greatly affect other passengers, train traffic and congestion. |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 26 00:47:15 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Andrew Saucci on Sun Jun 25 15:43:46 2017. The primary argument has nothing to do with the needs of the passengers, but rather the safety of the crew.If it's double-ended, the crew is not affected. It's just like going around the loop at Brooklyn Bridge. |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 26 00:57:42 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Michael549 on Sun Jun 25 12:15:29 2017. there is uncertainty at Brooklyn Bridge on the 6. You can be in the loop for a few minutes when there is congestion.And I'm not so sure that the congestion at any terminal is caused by passengers on the train when they shouldn't be. There's a lot more to the drama than "packages" on the train. why do you sign your posts? |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 26 01:14:42 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Jun 22 10:47:25 2017. True but how is the t/o supposed to know who's good and who's bad? That's why trains are fumigated.I (and all current and past t/o's) must apologize for wanting to go home to my family every night without being injured or robbed on the job. I think safety is a concern. Especially in recent decades as women have become a bigger percentage of the NYCT workforce, they are seen as more vulnerable in the relays. TA is more worried about lawsuits. Someone having a heart attack in the relay would be an easy case in court. "Why did you bring a customer to the storage facility"? Boom. Big settlement for the family. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 26 01:26:12 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by ftgreeneg on Sun Jun 25 15:51:01 2017. LOL |
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Whoa!! Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by b/p rupture on Mon Jun 26 09:37:20 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jun 22 08:36:21 2017. There's a fairly simple solution to their plight. When was the last time you encountered an elevator operator?SERIOUSLY? Apples and Oranges. A. compare travelling distances. B. compare the number of times you've been delayed between stations vs stuck between floors. C. compare the MOST number of people you've seen in an elevator car vs the FEWEST number of people you've seen in ONE car of a subway TRAIN. For starters. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Edwards! on Mon Jun 26 09:46:03 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Avid Reader on Thu Jun 22 09:26:50 2017. LOL.That Should certainly be enough to annoy anyone to Escape Mode... |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Michael549 on Mon Jun 26 09:47:48 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 26 00:57:42 2017. From a message:"why do you sign your posts?" Just a habit of mine. Mike |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Michael549 on Mon Jun 26 09:49:16 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Avid Reader on Thu Jun 22 09:26:50 2017. That is definitely one way to do it! |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Mon Jun 26 09:50:44 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jun 21 19:37:54 2017. "This is why we can't have nice things."Because some people are not very nice to other people......... |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Edwards! on Mon Jun 26 10:04:35 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Michael549 on Mon Jun 26 09:49:16 2017. AYE!* |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by trains61 on Mon Jun 26 13:12:37 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Michael549 on Mon Jun 26 09:47:48 2017. Mine too. ;-)The Lurkers` Guild |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Jun 26 14:43:37 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by AlM on Sun Jun 25 05:04:04 2017. Whether the arriving crew relays the train or the crew changes, it wouldn’t make any difference as to how long it takes to fumigate the train. |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Jun 26 14:53:42 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by randyo on Mon Jun 26 14:43:37 2017. Duh!The point was that if a train is being put right back into service in a few minutes, and there are T/Os at both ends, there is no need to clear out the train particularly thoroughly. Though some people have pointed out "what if" scenarios concerning the train remaining in the relay for a long period unexpectedly. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Jun 26 14:58:31 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by ftgreeneg on Sun Jun 25 15:51:01 2017. If it’s going to be a long relay, the in all likelihood drill T/O would be at both ends of the train since the arriving crew would have to be available to take its regular interval S/B. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Jun 26 15:00:30 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by LuchAAA on Sun Jun 25 19:44:40 2017. That may be true for most of the AM rush, but in the later part of the PM rush, the service requirements are decreasing so there is more likelihood of a train being a layup. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Jun 26 15:06:03 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Michael549 on Sun Jun 25 23:50:50 2017. I wonder why the woman would have been arrested and/or ticketed since it’s highly possible she did not hear the C/R’s PA announcement. In all my years with the TA, I never heard of any passenger being cited for remaining on a relay train or even a layup. In the event a passenger inadvertently remained on a layup, the Yard T/O would immediately notify the Yd/M that there was a “package” on the train and the train would merely be returned to the station to deliver the “package." |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Jun 26 15:07:42 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Edwards! on Sun Jun 25 15:42:37 2017. Since there are no trains on the lcl tk going past CTL under normal circumstances, it would make no difference if the relay were done there or 179 since the same situation would exist. |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Jun 26 15:39:20 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by pelham Exp on Sun Jun 25 11:01:29 2017. Interesting, especially since the yard does have a loop which could have made changing ends unnecessary. |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Jun 26 15:42:44 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Avid Reader on Thu Jun 22 09:26:50 2017. Some enterprising ACLU lawyer would probably take a class action case on the grounds that the noise is harmful to the passengers. |
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Re: Whoa!! Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Jun 26 15:44:10 2017, in response to Whoa!! Re: G Train Loop, posted by b/p rupture on Mon Jun 26 09:37:20 2017. Good point. See my post for further explanation. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Michael549 on Mon Jun 26 16:04:51 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by randyo on Mon Jun 26 15:06:03 2017. If memory serves I remember her being escorted out of the Bowling Green subway station where she was complaining of the train conductor striking her, and the response was on the order of "Tell it to the judge." Plus there were other transit officials and police who were taking the statements of the conductor and train operator. It was a mess in any case.Mike |
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Posted by Edwards! on Mon Jun 26 16:16:10 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 26 00:57:42 2017. I approve his style.Shows class. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 26 18:36:43 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by italianstallion on Sat Jun 24 22:02:05 2017. Driverless cars are a solution in search of a problem.Let's assume a car travels 20,000 miles per year at an average speed of 10 mph. That means it was in use 2000 hours per year. That's a high ball estimate because the average speed was likely to be far greater than 10 mph. There are 8760 hours in the year. This means that average car is in use only 23% of the time. This suggests that up to 3 of every 4 private cars is redundant, if driverless cars could be shared among different users. Approximately 10% of the work force is involved full time in driving related employment. Eliminating that labor cost would do wonders for the bottom line. These are just two problems that driverless cars can provide a solution. If the technology is cost effective, it will become a reality. |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Jun 26 19:03:33 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 26 18:36:43 2017. That means it was in use 2000 hours per year. That's a high ball estimate because the average speed was likely to be far greater than 10 mph. There are 8760 hours in the year. This means that average car is in use only 23% of the time. This suggests that up to 3 of every 4 private cars is redundant, if driverless cars could be shared among different users.Now, now, that's a sneaky argument. You know that there is much less demand for cars, just as for subways, at some times of the week than at others. Also, your argument, properly modified, is an argument for shared cars, not for driverless cars. Most people can drive, so why not have them drive while they are traveling? Your second to last sentence is a much stronger argument. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by sloth on Mon Jun 26 20:29:56 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by ftgreeneg on Sun Jun 25 15:59:01 2017. Railroading is a noble profession. You work with your hands and your head. Both are often necessary. You bring home an honest paycheck and decent benefits for the wife and the kiddies.Once you eliminate the noble professions, what's left? The McJob? Welfare for everyone? Then the computers will decide they don't need us at all anymore. I've never given too much thought to the plight of the elevator operator, but that was probably an honest living for someone too. There are hard unintended consequences of "progress". For the most part, the buffs and self-styled armchair transportation planners will never understand what we do. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 26 21:00:33 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by AlM on Mon Jun 26 19:03:33 2017. Now, now, that's a sneaky argument. You know that there is much less demand for cars, just as for subways, at some times of the week than at others.You will note that I used the qualifier "up to" in estimating the number of redundant cars. The rush hour peaks have been getting progressively shallower. According to the Hub Bound Report, the 8-9 and 7-10 periods represented 9% and 23% of the daily inbound automobile traffic in 1960. These figures have dropped to 6% and 18% in 2015. It's not the case that all cars are busy for the same two hours per day. Driverless technology will significantly reduce the need for the number of cars currently on the road. Most people can drive, so why not have them drive while they are traveling? Cars have to be parked fairly close to where somebody works. This is a disaster for any urban environment. The driverless car can drop its passenger at his office and then either pick up another passenger or drive to a garage that is out of the high rent district. The reverse will happen when the passenger wants to leave for home. Driverless cars will evolve into driverless taxis for the urban environment. Consider the sprawlburb ideal. Husband drives car to work. Trip takes 20 minutes. Wive needs second car to get around during the day. The driverless car will return back to home base, after dropping off husband. Wife will use car for rest of day. Bye-bye need for two car families. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 26 21:33:46 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by sloth on Mon Jun 26 20:29:56 2017. Railroading is a noble profession. You work with your hands and your head.On a NYC subway, two people must independently decide whether the left or right side doors should open at each station. The doors won't open unless both T/O and C/R agree. The work may involve the hands and brain. However, the door enabler was put in, after there were several incidents of a disconnect between hands and brain. Once you eliminate the noble professions, what's left? The McJob? Welfare for everyone? It's about time we did gave serious thought to defining work, compensation, etc. It's not just blue collar workers. Goldman Sachs replaced 600 equity traders with computer programs. Who's next? For the most part, the buffs and self-styled armchair transportation planners will never understand what we do Is creating and maintaining an unsustainable wage structure one of the items you believe railroading professionals do? |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 26 22:25:17 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Edwards! on Mon Jun 26 16:16:10 2017. what's classy about signing a post?I think it's classless and a form of trolling. |
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