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Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jan 28 20:17:46 2016  76th Street Station (IND Fulton Street Line) Appearance/Area’s Layout Blue Tiles, only the southbound platform has tiles and the platform floor is rough unfinished concrete. The station probably extends westward from 76th Street as maps from the late 1930s show the station as 75th Street. Tunnel ended at 79th Street. Exit in the center of the station The wall at the end of track is concrete not cinderblock. During the construction of Grant Av, before the concrete wall was put up, there was a temporary wooden wall. Cinderblock wall at Grant Avenue and North Conduit on the South side – A7 and A8 yard leads The Pitkin Avenue "mainline" also dips below both the leads to Grant Avenue station as well as underneath the K3-4 and K5 yard leads that does put 76th Street station pretty deep and probably below any sewer work in the area. The A7 and A8 yard leads had rail installed and were at one time connected by switches to A5 and A6 inside the portal. Yard moves were made on these tracks. In 1962, there were no cinder block walls, but the tunnels ended in mounds of earth. By that time the switches had been removed and the home signals and their associated stop arms protecting the now removed switches were still functioning. In 1983, the cinder block walls had been put up and the signals although still in place were no longer functioning and the stop arm mechanisms had been removed. The fact that the line may have been intended to go via Linden Boulevard could explain the partially built street between Pitkin Avenue and Cross Bay Boulevard. Most maps from the 1940's to the 1980's show Linden Boulevard completed there, as well as a cut across the northwest corner of Aqueduct Race Track, also never built. They also show a more elaborate interchange at Conduit Boulevard, and the street continuing across a still-visible ROW through Tudor Park to 88th Street. When Dumont Avenue was first built through to 88th Street there was actually a curb cut on the southwest corner, blocked by a temporary real estate office building. Plans It always was the Board of Transportation’s intention to recapture the Fulton Street Elevated, and extend the line to 229th Street and Linden Boulevard. In the 1939/1940 plan the line was cut back to 106th Street. The line was built before World War II from Rockaway Ave to somewhere around here. The full station at Broadway Junction was built, and tiled, but it lacked the metal for the rails and signals because of the war effort. The station shells at Liberty, Van Siclen, Shephard and Euclid were also all built before the war, and then construction stopped because of the war. Some early proposals for the IND Fulton St Line called for it to continue out on Fulton Street under the existing Jamaica Line structure and emerge just past the Crescent St station and connect to the Liberty Avenue structure from north of Liberty Av instead of south of it which is where it connects at present. This might be why the first portion of the IND ended at the odd location of Rockaway Avenue since the planners probably weren't quite sure where the line was going to go once it reached the ENY area. After unification, the concept of competition was no longer considered and the subway south of Rockaway Avenue was routed slightly north under Truxton Park to provide a transfer to the Broadway Junction complex. The possibility of replacing the BMT Jamaica Line, or connecting with the Jamaica Avenue Elevated was considered. A map from 1950 indicates that while the "mainline" portion of the Pitkin Avenue subway was intended to have connected to the LIRR ROW in the area of Aqueduct in 1948, by the time of the 1950 map those plans had been abandoned and the connection we now know as Liberty Junction was shown OK, as I am looking now at the May 2004 edition of the NYD Division Bulletion of the ERA, there is a created schematic map on page 6 that showed a proposal of the IND Fulton Street Subway line going past Euclid Avenue and into Queens. The credit goes to ERA member Jeffrey Erlitz for putting the map in the article, and it is based upon the Board of Transportation's drawing entitled "Study for Alignment and Grades from Grant Avenue to 106th Street with Connection to Rockaway Division of the L.I.R.R.", dated October 15, 1940 and revised April 16, 1945. The list of stations of the main trunk line were to have been as follows: 1. 76th Street (four track local station, side wall platforms, interlocking switches east of the station) 2. 84th Street (four track local station, side wall platforms) 3. Cross Bay Boulevard (four track express station, island platforms, interlocking switches west and east of the station; track arrangement would have almost similar to 168th Street-Washington Heights). From here, the line would split up to then continue with two track towards a stub end terminal station at 105th Street, plus a semi-storage lay-up yard east of Cross Bay Boulevard, and a two-track connection to the Rockaway Line going southward about a point north of what would be the present Aqueduct-North Conduit Avenue. The track connection between the Fulton Street and the Rockaway Line was to be tunnel portals at Pitkin Avenue, and as seen on the schematic drawing in the article. Thanks. I've been exploring that area ever since childhood (ca. 1960). The portion of Linden Blvd. between Centerville St. and Rockaway Blvd. does not show up in either the 1924 photos (NYC Map) or the 1954 photos (HistoricAerials.com). There may have been a curb cut at Rockaway Blvd. but nothing else. For a while, when Dumont Av. was first built through from 86th St. to 88th St. (and signed 135th Av, by the way) back around 1980, there was a curb cut for Linden Blvd. on the southwest corner next to a temporary building for real estate sales, but it was later filled in. If there was intended to be a stop at 105th St, that street would have to have been extended through the parking lot to Linden Blvd. It therefore appears that the IND was intended to turn from Pitkin Avenue onto Linden Boulevard near Sitka Street. jeff,76st was constructed 1941/2.i,ve got issuses of the era`s bulletin showing construction just east of liberty&penn.ave circa 1942.since i,m using a library pc I won`t be able to field any questions unless i,m emailed,then it still will take time it was built 1941to 1942. all construction on the A line ceased in may of 1942 when it was extended a little beyound euclid ave.this is according to fredric kramer in "building the ind" this section was a deep hole,just look how the 4 layup tracks dip under the grant ave.station.on the street there was nothing.all of those houses on the queens side were post WW2 construction.there were just a few buildings on the bklyn side that are pre WW2 construction. . Evidence There is a transit authority manhole just a few feet east toward 76th Street at Eldert’s Lane. It is located at the edge of the parking lot looking eastbound at Eldert’s Lane. The markings have been erased due to heavy auto traffic over the years. This may be the entrance to the tunnel beyond the 4 layup tracks at Grant Avenue. If so, this might be the easiest access to 76th Street. (Tunnelrat) In 1978, he said that he and his partner, a former transit cop, took him into Pitkin yard, got a set of keys from the yardmaster and took him to the cinder block wall, which at the time had a structure door in it. They went through the door and walked a distance on ballast. There were no rails or phantom trains until they reached the 76th Street platform they walked the platform to the end, They said that it was played out like an IND station with blue tiles on the wall. The center entrance to the street was sealed up, the other side, the city bound side was incomplete. They went as far as the edge of the eastbound platform. They shined their flashlights down the hole toward Queens and could not see the end of the tunnel. It was a typical four track right-of-way, with no tracks, and no roadbed, and lights. In 1962, I (Randyo) met an IND C/R that had been in the unfinished station on a long relay move a few years before. A fellow TA employee mentioned that when he was flagging for the construction of Grant Avenue in the early 1950s, he and another flagman got lost in the labyrinth of tunnels S/O Euclid and ended up in a partially built station which fit the description given by the C/R who first told me about it. The long relay move possibly from Pitkin Yard makes sense since from personal observation I know that the A7 and A8 Yard leads were at one time connected to the existing leads and were used for some yard moves before they were disconnected and removed. These accounts describe the station similarly and were given by people who didn't know each other so that seems to lend credibility to the existence of such a structure. The listing of 2 emergency exits on Pitkin Avenue in the approximate area of the station in the trainmaster's emergency exit book in 1983 also adds to the credibility. As I have mentioned over the years, when I was a trainmaster in 1983, the emergency exit book in the command center showed 2 emergency exits, one on each side of Pitkin Ave, between Grant Av and the next street which I believe is Eldert Lane. These would be past the definitely known end of construction. When George Abere and I attempted to find them when we explored the area in 1983, they were nowhere to be found. I don't recall the date the book was issued and unfortunately it has been updated and those exits are not shown in the new edition. What we did find was a manhole in the middle of Pitkin Av about midway between Grant and the next street with a cover marked "Independent Subway System City of New York." When I drove past that spot about 5 years ago, that manhole was no longer there and the street looked to have been freshly repaved. Some of my sources who support the existence of the station shell have indicated that the subway infrastructure only extends to around 79th Street so that would be a good reason why nothing was observed at 80th Street since it would be beyond the point where construction ended. in 1968 I was a transit cop working the A line.I asked the m/m if he knew anything about 76st,YES was the reply.in the early 1950`s he was a conductor on the pump train when they were ordered to go beyound the portals[the cinderblock wall]as the tunnel had flooded.they went a"distance" beyound the wall untill they hit water,they did see the shell station& your guess on what is a distance is as good as mine.you DON`T put up a cinder block wall at end of construction,you put up a concrete wall.he had heard from other m/m who had did a long relay from pitkin yard that they had found a "ghost"station at the end of the b/b.he did not see this for himself. Explanation The surveyors may have encountered problems with the ground under Pitkin Avenue that would have made further construction either prohibitively expensive or outright impossible. The decision to halt construction may have been made before construction actually ceased and to cover up whatever error did take place the area in question was simply sealed up to avoid potential embarrassment on the part of any individuals or government agencies and/or officials that might have been involved. Possible serious water problems – Until the early 1960's, the space now occupied by 79th St. south of Linden Blvd. contained a channeled watercourse, no doubt connected to the creek further south. The 1924 photos show this creek extending north to South Conduit Av. with what looks like a dirt path continuing to the north towards the cemetery on the north side of Pitkin Avenue. Perhaps there was still an underground stream there. Someone on the forum’s father had observed what appeared to be major street construction in the area of Conduit Blvd in the late 1940s, which may indicate that any sewer work done in the area may have been done at that time rather than at a later date. Since apparently there was a lot of non transit construction going on in the area as well as transit work, as I mentioned in some other posts, it could be possible that some other city department like water supply or even a private company like Con Ed or Brooklyn Union Gas might have built the infrastructure past the wall at the end of the known subway. It may be that the other agency or company was informed of the impending subway construction and opted to excavate the area for both utilities and the subway rather than have their newly installed utilities dug up again for the subway construction. That may explain why the MTA may have no records of such construction since it may not have been built by the B of T and therefore there would be no records to transfer. With this in mind, the PSC requested that the Bkln Edison Co which was building in the area at the time, construct its circuit breaker chambers as small sections of subway tunnel so that should the line be expanded, the additional tunnel sections could be easily connected to them. That is why the NYCTA records don't show any such construction even though it exists. Those sections were not built either by or for the PSC or any dual contract subcontractor and so as far as the TA is concerned they were never built and do not exist. If 76 St does exist and additionally, is not itself actually in use by any agency or utility company, any records of its construction may have by now either been destroyed or at best may be extremely difficult to find since nobody but transit historians like us would really know what to look for or even care about it or know what it is even if they found it. |
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jan 28 20:24:31 2016, in response to Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jan 28 20:17:46 2016.     
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| (1383390) | |
Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jan 28 20:34:55 2016, in response to Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jan 28 20:17:46 2016.   They did have some sort of water problem as water drainage equipment was needed.  Signalling  Liberty Avenue Connection 
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jan 28 20:40:30 2016, in response to Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jan 28 20:17:46 2016. Proposed extension to 106th |
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| (1383392) | |
A tile wall at Crystal Street Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jan 28 20:42:02 2016, in response to Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jan 28 20:17:46 2016.  The wall was used to keep out water, dirt, and mud, which could seep into the tunnel. Any connection to 76th Street? |
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| (1383393) | |
Dealing with the water table Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jan 28 20:45:08 2016, in response to Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jan 28 20:17:46 2016. 
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| (1383394) | |
Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Jan 28 21:03:07 2016, in response to Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jan 28 20:17:46 2016. One of the longest posts ever? |
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| (1383397) | |
Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jan 28 21:29:12 2016, in response to Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jan 28 20:17:46 2016. From what I have read here, the East NY tunnel ended under Pennsylvania Ave/Fulton St. (The 1930 plans had it ending under Jamaica Ava at Alabama Ave.) Interesting to read that some of the proposed condemnation involved properties on New Jersey Ave and Vermont St. I had read another article where the route would run diagonally from Penn/Fulton to Vermont/Pitkin. This would have meant condemnation of the buildings on the blocks between Pennsylvania and New Jersey Aves and New Jersey Ave and Vermont St, where it intersects with Pitkin Ave. There would have been no present Liberty Ave station.This was a great find, Union Tpke! I had always believed that there was something that continued under Pitkin Ave, east of Conduit Ave. Hopefully, someone may be able to access one of those manholes mentioned and find the remnants of 76th Street station. |
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| (1383429) | |
Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Jan 29 07:25:21 2016, in response to Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jan 28 21:29:12 2016. It's been my consistent belief that some work took place there. But nothing even close to a fully tiled, operational station.I guess the closest analogy might be how the SIR was put onto a trestle to cross over the Willowbrook Parkway, in Great Kills. The parkway (or at least that segment of it) then proceeded to be never built. But walk the Greenbelt "White Trail" near Hylan Boulevard, compare it to a map of the proposed parkway, and you'll see what I mean. Or look at the stubs for the Shore Front Parkway near the Outerbridge. So yeah, for 76th, they put in some facing signals, added it to the model board, moved some utilities and earth. That's it. |
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Dan on Fri Jan 29 08:21:18 2016, in response to Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Jan 29 07:25:21 2016. I agree. Maybe a shell of something exists at 76/Pitkin but that's all. I've walked the White Trail from Hylan & Buffalo but only for a few blocks, never to the trestle. Too desolate. Ride the SIR between Oakwood & Bay Terrace and you can see where the Willowbrook Pkwy was to be built. |
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jan 29 08:27:25 2016, in response to Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jan 28 20:17:46 2016. I think that they started construction to 106th and once they got to 79th, after the station was partially built, they encountered problems with the water and were forced to stop. In order to cover up what happened, it was walled up and forgotten by most. |
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Jan 29 08:31:56 2016, in response to Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Dan on Fri Jan 29 08:21:18 2016. Right. Same spot. |
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| (1383435) | |
(Calling Tunnelrat and Randyo) Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jan 29 08:45:12 2016, in response to Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jan 28 20:17:46 2016. What do you think of these newspaper clippings? |
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Re: (Calling Tunnelrat and Randyo) Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by GIS Man on Fri Jan 29 09:19:55 2016, in response to (Calling Tunnelrat and Randyo) Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jan 29 08:45:12 2016. Quite revealing. What strikes me most is the report that the route was indeed intended to proceed along Linden Blvd. from Pitkin Av, which was implied by a Hagstrom map which has been shown in previous posts. I always knew there had to be a reason for the partial construction between 88th St. and Cross Bay Blvd, along with the complicated interchanges shown on various commercial maps.Bob |
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by SLRT on Fri Jan 29 10:18:56 2016, in response to Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jan 28 20:17:46 2016. Very interesting research, but what you've demonstrated is that 76th Street (and beyond) was planned and provisions made for it. Nothing that it was actually built.You might as well infer from substantial remnants at South 4th Street and Utica and Fulton that major lines of the IND Second System were built and then sealed up. The whole thing could be resolved with just a little cooperation from the City, but maybe it's more fun to keep imagining. |
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jan 29 10:46:29 2016, in response to Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by SLRT on Fri Jan 29 10:18:56 2016. I believe that the station does exist, but I know that these don't directly point to it. These articles discuss the proposed line and the problem with the water. The water could provide an explanation for why construction was stopped, presumably after 76th Street. They were trying to acquire land for the route, so they clearly were going to build it, but this doesn't prove its existence. I think that randyo and tunnelrat are reliable sources and I believe them. |
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jan 29 10:50:44 2016, in response to Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jan 28 20:17:46 2016.  Halting of construction |
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jan 29 10:55:28 2016, in response to Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jan 29 10:50:44 2016. 
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jan 29 11:11:21 2016, in response to Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jan 28 20:17:46 2016. bus service rerouted to Euclid Construction in the area  discussing land between 75 Street and 79 street  stations beyond Grant undetermined  discussion of the route to 229th  Station locations undetermined  |
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jan 29 11:20:45 2016, in response to Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jan 28 20:17:46 2016. Mention of old South Road in 1930 Question about routing  |
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Jan 29 11:44:28 2016, in response to Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jan 28 20:17:46 2016. randy,I didn`t say I was in the tunnel/station.it was 2 cops who I worked with in the 7-5 pct.that got in,one being a former transit cop[like myself]who had been in there.as far as the water table is concerned,didn`t they build the PRR tunnels under the hudson& east rivers? along with the H&M tubes.I believe that this could have been overcome.before there was an internet I didn`t think there was any "subway spelonkers" besides myself.over the years I did run across t.a.documents proving that 76st was built but did not make copies of them.opertunity lost forever.my gf`s computer decided to commit suicide sat.nite,so I won`t be able to reply to any questions untill tuesday.I spoke to the m/m who was a c/r on a pump train that went beyond the pitkin yard portals to pump out that section of tunnel that had flooded.this was in the early `50`s. |
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Jan 29 11:46:47 2016, in response to Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Jan 29 11:44:28 2016. also,all of the newspaper articles say EXACTLY what I have posted many times in the past. |
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Re: (Calling Tunnelrat and Randyo) Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Jan 29 11:53:41 2016, in response to (Calling Tunnelrat and Randyo) Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jan 29 08:45:12 2016. great find,now get to work on the BRT engineer who blew his brains out during construction of the 4th.ave.subway.he misaligned the 59st& 4th.ave station{iirc]and when they punched thru the waiting room was at a different level& well befor the station.it is now used as a relay room.as I stated before,I didn`t make any copies of these many years ago as I didn`t think anyone else was interested in such matters. |
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Re: Dealing with the water table Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Jan 29 12:06:08 2016, in response to Dealing with the water table Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jan 28 20:45:08 2016. Honestly this is fascinating stuff. Nice work. |
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by SLRT on Fri Jan 29 12:09:42 2016, in response to Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Jan 29 11:44:28 2016. What kind of TA documents would have proven 76th Street was built? |
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jan 29 13:01:37 2016, in response to Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Jan 29 11:44:28 2016. I know that you weren't in the tunel |
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jan 29 13:01:58 2016, in response to Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Jan 29 11:46:47 2016. just further bolstering your case. I believe you |
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Re: (Calling Tunnelrat and Randyo) Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jan 29 13:02:57 2016, in response to Re: (Calling Tunnelrat and Randyo) Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Jan 29 11:53:41 2016. thanks. Do you know anything else about this? |
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Re: Dealing with the water table Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jan 29 13:03:54 2016, in response to Re: Dealing with the water table Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Jan 29 12:06:08 2016. your welcome. You can find a lot in the Brooklyn Daily Eagle archive. I like internet archives, although I like to be there in person touching the documents. |
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Re: (Calling Tunnelrat and Randyo) Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Express Rider on Fri Jan 29 15:19:25 2016, in response to Re: (Calling Tunnelrat and Randyo) Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by GIS Man on Fri Jan 29 09:19:55 2016. Hagstrom map which shows extension to 106th St. states will open in mid 1943. The map is dated january 1940, using Hagstrom's letter code. |
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Bob Andersen on Fri Jan 29 15:25:25 2016, in response to Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jan 29 11:20:45 2016. Google Street View shows Pitkin as Old South Road. Here's the corner at 76th St.
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Bob Andersen on Fri Jan 29 15:29:26 2016, in response to Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Bob Andersen on Fri Jan 29 15:25:25 2016. There are several manhole covers right at the intersection. One says Sewers. I wonder what the others lead to :-)
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Dan on Fri Jan 29 15:30:07 2016, in response to Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by SLRT on Fri Jan 29 12:09:42 2016. The TA or NYC Municipal Archives must have at least some documents related to the construction of the IND. Easier said than done but that would be the first place to look for real evidence of a station at 76 Street. FOIL request? |
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Jan 29 15:31:30 2016, in response to Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Bob Andersen on Fri Jan 29 15:25:25 2016. Those patches in the pavement must be related to the subway station. :) |
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by italianstallion on Fri Jan 29 15:52:07 2016, in response to Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Bob Andersen on Fri Jan 29 15:29:26 2016. The one on the left also says Sewers. The obscured one on the right has the same design on the visible portion, so probably also a Sewer. |
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Union Tpke, That Is Great News, Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary. |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 29 16:29:23 2016, in response to Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jan 28 20:17:46 2016. The best news I've heard of in a long time. |
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jan 29 16:40:44 2016, in response to Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jan 29 13:01:58 2016. I'm glad tunnelrat and all of the others were vindicated. This is one "76th Street" thread that we can all finally enjoy, because of Union Tpke's research. Thanks, once again! |
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Re: Union Tpke, That Is Great News, Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jan 29 16:41:07 2016, in response to Union Tpke, That Is Great News, Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary., posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 29 16:29:23 2016. AMEN! |
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jan 29 16:51:27 2016, in response to Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Bob Andersen on Fri Jan 29 15:29:26 2016. Interesting! But why pave over the one on the left? Any chance the City Sewer Dept replaced the old subway one with one of their own? |
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by italianstallion on Fri Jan 29 16:54:55 2016, in response to Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jan 29 16:51:27 2016. Could be .All 3 are standard NYC Sewer manholes. |
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jan 29 17:58:12 2016, in response to Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Bob Andersen on Fri Jan 29 15:29:26 2016. Google "stitches together" photos which don't have a proper overlap from the car. The one covered over there might be a duplicate of an adjacent image. |
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jan 29 18:06:24 2016, in response to Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Dan on Fri Jan 29 15:30:07 2016. Can one access them online? |
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Jan 29 18:15:56 2016, in response to Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jan 29 16:40:44 2016. There ya go.Love seeing and appreciating such research. The Only thing left is seeing the hidden work itself. Good luck to anyone willing. |
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Re: (Calling Tunnelrat and Randyo) Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Jan 29 19:18:17 2016, in response to Re: (Calling Tunnelrat and Randyo) Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Jan 29 11:53:41 2016. The only rumor about an engineer offing himself had to do with 36/4, not 59 and it was not an error at all but a change of mind on the part of the BRT and the PSC and it is documented in at least one PSC report from around the time of construction. As originally planned, a 4 tk turnout which still exist in part was to be constructed well south of the present 36 St station and connected to both the Culver and West End Lines via new tunnels and portals. Since the 38 St cut was already in place and being used for the Culver Lina which at the time was operating on the surface along Mc Donald (Gravesend) Av and along side 39 St, it was decided to use it for the subway connections to both elevated lines also under construction. The station had been partially constructed S/O its present location and there are still tiles although covered in steel dust partially in the tunnel S/O the station area. The planned turnout was abandoned and ramps were built accessing the 38 St cut and the rest of the station relocated. The station control area for the original location was built approximately over where the present ramps start and in one of the pSC reports I have there is a photo of it. There was a ladder S/O the station that accessed the unused station area but although I worked at 36 St tower from time to time, I never bothered to check it out. |
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Jan 29 19:25:21 2016, in response to Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jan 29 10:50:44 2016. The article mentioned that the Court St station and the Fulton St lcl would-be reactivated once express service would be able to be operated on Fulton St. We’re still waiting for it. |
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Jan 29 19:37:01 2016, in response to Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jan 29 16:51:27 2016. As I mentioned in another post long ago on this topic, when George Abere and I visited the site at street level, there was a manhole cover in the middle of Pitkin Av well east of Grant Av (I can’t recall the exact location now but it was definitely past the concrete wall in the subway below) that read “Independent Subway System City of New York." When I returned there 10 years ago, the street had been repaved and the manhole cover was gone. |
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Jan 29 19:39:17 2016, in response to Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Jan 29 11:44:28 2016. The person who sort of quoted me, probably misunderstood something. He even mixed up a few references I made to the BMT 4 Av subway into some info about 76 St. |
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Jan 29 19:44:40 2016, in response to Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jan 28 20:17:46 2016. Somewhere in the thread a poster mentioned that there was no “usable” station at 76 St but possible a very superficial shell. Nobody in any of the threads on this subject ever said there was a completely usable station. All the people who have either claimed to have been there or know people who have been there describe it in exactly the same way. It is a station shell with tiles only on the S/B platform rough finish on the platforms themselves and no tile whatsoever on the N/B side. |
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Jan 29 20:00:20 2016, in response to Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Bob Andersen on Fri Jan 29 15:25:25 2016. The street appears unstable, as though there were a large cut-away area underneath. |
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Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary |
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Posted by Marc A. Rivlin on Fri Jan 29 21:09:15 2016, in response to Re: Possible new 76th Street Evidence and summary, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jan 29 18:06:24 2016. Other than some photos, I don't think much of the Municipal Archives is online. Finance has put property recordings and tax maps online. Buildings has put old certificates of occupancy online. But, these are a portion of what they keep in their own files, not the Municipal Archives. Whatever is in the Municipal Archives would be original files sent there by the agency. It seems unlikely that the city kept any records from the Board of Transportation. They probably would have been at the "new" Transportation Building at 370 Jay Street or in BoT storage when the TA took over for the Board of Transportation. Conceivably, records in BoT storage could have been mixed with other city agency storage, but, given that the line in question was recent, I would doubt they would have been off premises in less than ten years, so, more likely than not, they went from the BoT to the TA. Others have posted in past 76th Street threads that many file cabinets of papers were discarded in various TA moves over the years. Perhaps they still have the records but they may not. That leaves other city copies of contracts. The Comptroller might have had copies, as might the City Council and the old Board of Estimate. It is possible that those records are in the Municipal Archives. |
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